Not impressed with Iron Descrimination on EQ 800

That's fascinating, Des.

I will have to go searching for Gordon's info.

Thanks for sharing the hint!

Steve

Des D Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> steveg Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Del,
> >
> > It seems like you can get "closer" to FBS respon
> se
> > by running low recovery speed combined with a sl
> ow
> > sweep speed. Much less "machine-gunny" at low r
> ec
> > overy speed, and more "drawn out" tones. But, I
> d
> > o not think you can replicate AT ALL the warbly,
> t
> > inkly, broken-glassy type of sound on a deep coi
> n.
> > The "variance" njnydigger mentioned...
> >
> > One reason I think that is, is that I think some
> wh
> > at "paradoxically" that it's the FBS tendency to
> h
> > ave some tiny "instability" at depth in terms of
> I
> > D number -- i.e. ID numbers varying by a digit o
> r
> > two (but ONLY a digit or two) at depth, that is
> pa
> > rt of what leads to that "tinkly" or "warbly" so
> un
> > d. It's the "audio signature" of a dime varying
> r
> > apidly between a 44 and 45 ID number. But, if f
> ro
> > m a design perspective you "set" a machine to tr
> y
> > and output ONE NUMBER on a target, when possible
> (
> > through "averaging" or something), or if you "co
> mp
> > ress" your ID scale to reduce ID number bounces,
> t
> > hen while that COULD be considered an "IMPROVEME
> NT
> > " in terms of ID "stability," it "takes away" th
> at
> > little up-and-down rapid bouncing of ID number o
> n
> > a deep coin, and the corresponding "warbling" of
> t
> > he audio.
> >
> > Probably not the whole story, but that's part of
> w
> > hat my brain has been thinking, FWIW.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > D&P-OR Wrote:
> > ------------------------------------------------
> --
> > -----
> > > Des D Wrote:
> > > ----------------------------------------------
> --
> > --
> > > -----
> > > > "Still don't have mine and looking fwd to it
> H
> > UG
> > > EL
> > > > Y.
> > > >
> > > > ShovelNose: you'll have to walk B4 you can r
> un
> > ..
> > > yo
> > > > u can't / won't master Iron Disc on anything
> n
> > ew
> > > i
> > > > n a few hrs!
> > > >
> > > > I'm sure (for those who might want to) you c
> an
> > m
> > > ak
> > > > e [ it sound ] like an E Trac or a CTX if yo
> u
> > wa
> > > nt
> > > > ed, but why would you? It's a New system wit
> h
> > it
> > > 's
> > > > own nuances?"
> > >
> > >
> > > Des------How do you know you can make the Equi
> no
> > x
> > > sound like an Etrac?-----You stated you haven'
> t
> > re
> > > ceived yours yet.----Have you borrowed or trie
> d
> > a
> > > friends to see you can do this?-----Just curio
> us
> > a
> > > s I would REALLY like it if you indeed could m
> ak
> > e
> > > it sound like an Etrac.-----I'm just am old ti
> me
> > r
> > > set in his ways I guess! -------Del
>
> Del,
>
> Maybe not the 'E Trac', but definitely applicable
> to be "almost like the CTX"
>
> Gordon Heritage in a UK magazine article outlined
> a dozen or so steps to alter the Settings to 'almo
> st replicate', the sounds of the CTX
> It's got 50 Tones: E Trac doesn't so, it might not
> be possible (but I'd give it a good try)
> I don't have permission to (nor would I) reproduce
> Copyright writer's privilege here.
> His settings allow users to use Multi-Tone in All
> Metal.
>
> Des D

So having seen a few more vids come about the way iron is treated by the EQ. and how it seems to act like the Deus. Never used a Deus but the 800 has enough good features(40k gold mode rocks the depth and tiny gold) that I will have to get used to the fact that just about all signals under 20 will have to be checked by AM or a profile with single freq so I will hear the iron tone and -id as the coil moves off the target. And as mentioned in 50 tone it does clip audio but still gives a non ferrous id unless I flip to AM. I use PP to find best target signal but if tip of nail it moves when plug removed. I have an rare occasion that I get wrap around with my ET. I mostly hunt the beach in TTF due to freeing up resources in the processor and it nails the bottle caps 95 % of the time. With all the hype about the Multi IQ I was hoping for it to be able to do as well as the FBS/BBS in being able to eliminate iron if you didn't want to hear it.
I too think it could use a update on the discrimination range by spreading out the upper end by moving pennies up and spread out the bottom of the range a couple of numbers. Move large silver up to 38. While some may care for how this treats iron it falls way short of my expectations for Multi ID and its decrimination of iron. Some iron is to be expected but this is way more than I would have expected. Hoping for the 6" to come out soon. Strange they are dragging their feet so bad on the accessories.

Steve Herschbach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [url=http://www.detectorprospector.com/forum/topic
> /5715-minelab-e-trac-ctx-3030-excalibur-versus-equ
> inox/]Minelab E-trac, CTX 3030, Excalibur Versus E
> quinox[/url]
>
> Short answer - those trying to turn Equinox into a
> light weight BBS/FBS detector are going to fail. T
> he machines are not meant to duplicate each other.


Steve, I have not read the rest of the replies yet. Had stopped at your first reply so far. Quite ... uh ... disheartened at what you wrote. Because seeing as how the machine is water proof, and seeing as how it has beach modes, and seeing as how that's one of the sale hypes, then it's ONLY LOGICAL that persons are going to get it for the beach.

I don't care for the Excal sounds/audio, so I use my Explorer II for the beach. The down-side of that is, that I have to wrap it in plastic and black-tape if I plan to be in the surf-crash zone during beach storm/erosion hunting. I've had no less than 2 Explorers killed when I didn't outrun a wave in time, and wrap failed. So the Ox seemed like a good machine for the arsenal , eh ?

But now you're saying that I'm going to be cursed with nails ? Versus the Exp. II (and excal, etc...) which effortlessly passes them ? This totally bites. I hope that when I read the rest of the thread, some other info. comes to light. Otherwise, WTF ? If this is true, then I sure hope this has some benefit in land sites over my current arsenal . Eg.: more depth ? Better iron see through ? Otherwise this thing (slated to get here anyday) is immediately going on the classifieds

Des D Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Still don't have mine and looking fwd to it HUGEL
> Y.
>
> ShovelNose: you'll have to walk B4 you can run..yo
> u can't / won't master Iron Disc on anything new i
> n a few hrs!
>

There can be truth to this statement IF there is an ultimate way to overcome the obstacle in question. Eg.: to use a better more correct control setting ? To figure out if "nails sound different", etc...

But this statement is NOT true, if there's simply no way to overcome the obstacle (as Steve H. seems to be saying).

If a person could flag 2 deep wet sand beach signals. And let's say an Exp. II, or CTX, or Excal says the first one is a coin, and the 2nd one is a nail. But let's say the EQ says that both are conductive. Then it would seem to me (assuming that it is indeed a nail), that a person could stand there, and toy with all his settings long enough, to EVENTUALLY discern a difference between the 2. Either by audio (nail sounds different), or in some way, null or grunt like the other machines.

But if NO MATTER what he does, the 2 signals have no way to differentiate, then ... No amount of added hours and practice is going to solve it.

Tom_in_CA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But now you're saying that I'm going to be cursed
> with nails ? Versus the Eep. II (and excal, etc..
> .) which effortlessly passes them ? This totall
> y bites. I hope that when I read the rest of the
> thread, some other info. comes to light. Otherwis
> e, WTF ? If this is true, then I sure hope this
> has some benefit in land sites over my current ars
> enal . Eg.: more depth ? Better iron see through
> ? Otherwise this thing (slated to get here anyday
> ) is immediately going on the classifieds

I said no such thing Tom. I said exactly what I said and nothing more. Those trying to make Multi-IQ into BBS/FBS do not have a firm grasp on the machine and its design intent. There is a huge amount of information available on the subject elsewhere for those that are interested in trying to learn how to use Equinox to succeed where BBS/FBS fails. I don’t post here because people say discussing new detectors is hype and get all hurt about it. Worse yet is all the close minded people on a forum that purports to be interested in new technology, which is exactly what Equinox is. If all you want is another version of what you already have then stick with what you have and ditch the Equinox. If there are areas where BBS/FBS technology is failing you then perhaps Equinox can address those failings. Equinox is not a lightweight inexpensive BBS/FBS detector and if that is all you want, then you will be disappointed. Equinox was made for people like me for whom BBS/FBS has always been a second tier solution due to its inability to perform well on low conductors in extremely mineralized ground and masking issues in dense trash. How many times does it have to be said that Equinox is targeting Garrett AT and the Deus and not Minelabs own detector’s before people will get it?

I apologize if that answer sounds curt as that’s not my intent. I am just trying to get the idea across forcefully to others more than you Tom and so this post is more for that general audience than anyone in particular.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2018 05:56PM by Steve Herschbach.

Tom --

Not sure EXACTLY what your concern is, or your perception of what you think the issues are, with respect to the EQ and nails. What I can say is -- for what it's worth, and this is extremely subjective -- but I am not digging more nails with the Equinox than I do with my CTX, or did with my Explorer. And if your goal is to "not dig nails," iron bias can allow you to accomplish a much greater likelihood that you won't, by running it "high."

The only nail I dig more of with my Equinox (and also with the CTX) than I did with my Explorer, are the short nails with large, flat heads -- i.e. what look to be short roofing nails. The Eq gives a decent signal on some of these. But the classic deep rusty nail? Even running my iron bias relatively low, at 3, I am not digging more nails with the EQ than I do with FBS. I can't comment on square nails yet; haven't hunted a site that has them with the EQ. But I ALWAYS end up digging more square nails at sites that have them, than I would at a site with more modern nails (with FBS units). They sound MUCH better to me, than regular nails, and I haven't had a chance to see what the EQ does with them. But regular nails? I personally am not digging more of them than I do with FBS, and that's without employing any specific, or time-consuming "techniques." We are talking just regular detecting.

Just my two cents, your mileage may vary, but not sure why you are thinking you will be "cursed with nails" if you run an EQ.

One other thing -- as Steve said, in the article you refer to, the 'Nox favors a "hunt by ear" approach. As an FBS user, maybe that's why I'm digging few nails -- I'm used to behavior of nails on FBS, and for me, some of that audio nuance MUST BE similar, in terms of recognizing iron (though I never really "thought" about that specifically, I just realize I don't dig nails any more frequently with the EQ than FBS). So, with you also used to FBS, don't get frustrated before you have a chance to run it. Work with your iron bias setting, to get it in a place that works for your style, and then see what happens. I am going to guess you won't be digging noticeably more nails than you do with your EXII -- especially after a couple of hunts with it.

Steve



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2018 08:23PM by steveg.

Glad you like it Steve. It is sad about the way it was announced to the public. Having absolutely nothing to base on if I wanted a Deus style Minelab I took a shot at it. My feelings aren't hurt just not my cup of tea. It does act like I have mention at my beaches and in my soil and mastering iron bias is really not solving the mechanics of this MD. Sure I can flip to another freq on every target under 20 and turn 90 degrees. Sounds like an analog unit I know. Tons of video's agrees that it loves all things iron and that there is away around it. For those who don't want to dig iron it just not what I had hoped for that's all. You must dig a lot of nails if not digging any more than normal. HH JR

No detector suits all people and Equinox will not either. I try far more that I discard than keep. I give you credit JR for at least trying something before commenting on it. Best wishes to you on a successful summer!

Not all of us can afford to try every detector. That is why we read the forums. As far as commenting on it...well we got a couple guys that comment on every detector on every detector on every forum. After a while the truth gets lost in all the gibberish. I think your post Steve on it not being FBS/BBS like is the best post I read on the Equinox. Seeing the Nokta/Makro Aqui detector in the video has given me hope for an alternative. As I stated before trying to make a detector something that it is not is very expensive. Heck if I was into relic hunting I would have an Equinox. It looks fantastic for that. But I gave up my slot for two 800's already and I am glad I did.

Some great info here always learn so much where as the F-mal there just so many crying --why wont this machine do everything for me first day out--or air test caps with recognisable tells. Complex high performing machines have complex operating characteristics. This may or may not include some iron bleeds. Kind of goes with the ultra high gain category (Deus, Racer, Impact...) I really like the power of this machine--it runs a very very clean signal, with nice audio just as it was designed to do. This is Bruce Candy's "strong suit"--interference and noise reduction. I'll take that over just about anything. You also have this great "economy" of Fq use--that translates into good low conductor sensitivity. The rest for sure we will figure out over time.
cjc



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2018 08:02PM by cjc.

I am sure you just made two other people waiting in line very happy goodmore! Anyway, time to crawl back in my cave - you all have a good one!

Video



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2018 08:16PM by Steve Herschbach.

ShovelNose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Glad you like it Steve. It is sad about the way it
> was announced to the public. Having absolutely not
> hing to base on if I wanted a Deus style Minelab
> I took a shot at it. My feelings aren't hurt just
> not my cup of tea. It does act like I have mention
> at my beaches and in my soil and mastering iron bi
> as is really not solving the mechanics of this MD.
> Sure I can flip to another freq on every target un
> der 20 and turn 90 degrees. Sounds like an analog
> unit I know. Tons of video's agrees that it loves
> all things iron and that there is away around it.
> For those who don't want to dig iron it just not w
> hat I had hoped for that's all. You must dig a lot
> of nails if not digging any more than normal. HH
> JR

I understand if it's not your cup of tea -- different strokes for different folks! No issues there at all -- it's all good!

But, no, I don't dig many nails. An EQ hunt for me means just a few in the pouch -- three or four. Now, I am not a beach hunter, so we are searching largely for different targets. That may be part of the difference...but for the targets I am searching for, and the IDs/sounds I am targeting, I am not seeing much iron in my pouch at the end of a hunt. NO MORE than I would, running the CTX.

One question -- why would you NOT want to learn the proper iron bias setting, for your taste/your beaches? Iron bias DIRECTLY influences how "falsy" nails are, or are not. If you are a person who needs maximum unmasking capability, you want to HEAR the high tones near iron. SO, you'd set your iron bias low (while knowing that, as a downside, you'll tend to dig more nails, as some of the "high tones near iron" are of course nail tip "falses.")

BUT -- if you are not an "unmasker," but someone who wants to "not dig nails," and instead would rather have a more "effortless" hunt, in terms of keeping iron quiet (i.e. keep your iron IDing as iron) then you set your iron bias high. It could be, for some, a "set it and forget it" setting. I am not saying that you have to press buttons to enter a different mode all the time. I'm saying, set it high, period, in your case. I am not sure why, if a machine offers you a setting to help minimize the amount of iron you dig (if that's your goal), by more positively identifying it AS IRON, that you'd seem unwilling to try to adjust the setting to your liking, and then leave it there. This is where I think I disagree with you. I think that iron bias IS something that -- when understood -- may be just what the doctor ordered.

Try this -- just once. Set your machine's iron bias at 9 (max), and don't run it "extra hot." Then, leave it there -- for an entire hunt. Do nothing else different. At the end of that hunt, I would be surprised if you wouldn't have a better feeling about the machine's ability to "let you not dig iron."

Steve



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2018 08:25PM by steveg.

I wonder if it has something to do with being on saltwater beach as to your iron problem..
I just dumped out my pouch from yesterday’s 5 hour Park hunt and I only dug 5 square nails and one bolt.
None of the nails were a surprise.. I was digging iffy iron false type signals trying to learn the detector..
The Equinox acts a lot like my E-Trac on nails only that it’s easier to decipher what going on with the Equinox..
The increased speed and cleaner tones really help..

Bryan

Very good discussions and recommendations here. . . . . . so as to mitigate misconceptions, relinquish fears......... and........ ultimately........ change detecting end-resultant.
steveg and Steve H. ..... Many thanks for your time/labor/efforts/sharing.

Most detectors 'false' on iron. Some less than others. Subconsciously .... we adapt/improvise/overcome.

Engineering a clean solution to a problem that a lot of us have (iron see-through) has been a hope of mine for years. Leave it to ML to do it.
Tom

cjc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some great info here always learn so much where as
> the F-mal there just so many crying --why wont thi
> s machine do everything for me first day out--or a
> ir test caps with recognisable tells. Complex h
> igh performing machines have complex operating cha
> racteristics. This may or may not include some i
> ron bleeds. Kind of goes with the ultra high gain
> category (Deus, Racer, Impact...) I really like th
> e power of this machine--it runs a very very clean
> signal, with nice audio just as it was designed to
> do. This is Bruce Candy's "strong suit"--interfer
> ence and noise reduction. I'll take that over jus
> t about anything. You also have this great "econo
> my" of Fq use--that translates into good low condu
> ctor sensitivity. The rest for sure we will figur
> e out over time.
> cjc

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
In a democracy, it is difficult to win fellow citizens over to your own side, or to build public support to remedy injustices that remain all too real when you fundamentally misunderstand how they see the world.

How can I put it an be PC..naw forgot that, I have never had my head buried in the BBS/FBS sand. Iron disc and 1 or 2 tones for me. Don't want or care to make it sound or act like anything other than what it is.
Will overcome

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
In a democracy, it is difficult to win fellow citizens over to your own side, or to build public support to remedy injustices that remain all too real when you fundamentally misunderstand how they see the world.