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New Fisher Manta

Posted by Frank in NH 
Re: New Fisher Manta
October 21, 2018 12:31AM
The discrimination level is known variable. At some point a signal will fall outside the low conductor range and start to give the muting or multitone effect. Increasing beyond that level makes the effect more pronounced. Also the SAT or Self Adjussting Threshold level - also knob variable increases the effect.

If you are hunting in a bed of nails and want silver - or a 24kt or massive 22Kt ring - then it’s dig it all (at least all the items which don’t give the characteristic long signal (often double) of an iron nail or bolt - which they do every in all metal many times.

The system isn’t perfect. What we refer to a high conductivity for a PI is rally long persistig signal - usually influenced by both the electrical conductivity and the mass of the target.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold
Re: New Fisher Manta
October 21, 2018 12:45AM
Rick... would there be a size where 24k still came in.... or will all 24k do it? Just thinking rings not that we get a large volume of those lost/found
Re: New Fisher Manta
October 21, 2018 10:31AM
dewcon4414 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But....doesn’t size matter? At what point....siz
> e or weight will that take place?


Uhhh, what are you referring to ?
Re: New Fisher Manta
October 21, 2018 11:54AM
Tom..... what im asking is ...... as the target gets smaller/lighter it falls farther down in digit range doesnt it? It no longer may hit in say the 20s .... but in th single digit on a VLF. Im not a PI guy as you can tell..... but isnt there a target point where 24K will be found? Are we talking about missing just the big gold? Is this kind of like wrap around on a VLF?
Re: New Fisher Manta
October 21, 2018 03:05PM
No wrap around. That happens in a VLF IB detector doing discrimination by phase shift. The Manta, like all PI’s sample return signal after pulse cut off. This happens after a minimum delay imposed by circuit and component choice. The shorter the delay, the more infrormaiton. The prectical limits on current machines are around 10 microseconds.

The PI’a that have more than one channel can compare the samples of the channels and do signal modifications to provide ground balance. This results in the separation of target signals whose signal fades quicker than the “balance potent” from those whose signal persists longer. For convenience these are referred to a low conductors or high conductors. In fact, besides electrical conductivity, factors such as surface area and mass influence the delay time,

The manta uses this technique in a different manner than any previous PI to separate these two classes of target signals. The underlying process is still analyzing the target signal in more than one channel and comparing the results along with signal processing.

Changing the “Rejection” setting probably changes the time delays at which samples are taken thus the rejection function,

This machine, like all of Eric Foster’s designs which preceded it, has controls which are variable and identified with terms which refer to their technical function. This is quite unlike the “bundle of settings” approach of many modern VLF IB detectors. The Equinox is a prime ecalmple of this. The actual function of the detector when the “modes” are selected is carefully kept as a “trade secret” although some generalizations are offered about some of the changes.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2018 03:06PM by lytle78.
Re: New Fisher Manta
October 21, 2018 03:45PM
"such as surface area and mass influence the delay time"

Yes this is what im saying Rick........ if the mass is smaller on say a 24K ring (or deeper i suspect) would it pick it up easier.......or is 24K not seen regardless? Im waiting on the Manual..... hopefully it will give me more information.... and signal the machine is about to come out.
Re: New Fisher Manta
October 21, 2018 04:42PM
dewcon4414 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>..... but isnt there a tar
> get point where 24K will be found? Are we talkin
> g about missing just the big gold?

24k will achieve either of the Manta's two groupings ("high" vs "low" ("gold") depending on the size of the target . As for the extreme low , that might "wrap around", where you're talking earring stud stems that a standard machine sees as "iron" (if it even sees them at all): Why is someone worried about such flake sized objects ? (unless they are a nugget enthusiast ) ?

Maybe I'm still not understanding your question.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2018 04:43PM by Tom_in_CA.
Re: New Fisher Manta
October 21, 2018 05:13PM
Tom.... maybe I misunderstood. Like I said I’m not a PI guy. I thought he was saying no 24k would be detected.
Re: New Fisher Manta
October 21, 2018 07:07PM
There is no wraparound that is something that happens with LF induction balance detectors using phase shift ID.

In the all metal setting all metallic targets are detected.

The Ferris ID via multi tone or mute is not deterministic – it is very dependent on the exact circumstances the setting of the controls the conductivity and mass of the object. People looking for neat buckets of cut off like a Tesoro compadre or a nice Whites IDX pro will no doubt be disappointed.

If you really think you’re going to find 24 karat rings you would hunt at all metal when you find a target you could interrogated by use of the iron exclusion controls it would give you some sort of idea whether it was ferrous or not. If you haven’t been digging a bunch of bottle caps or other iron in the same area you probably would dig it - if you found it in a nest of old bottle caps you’d probably pass it by.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2018 07:49PM by lytle78.
Re: New Fisher Manta
October 21, 2018 08:23PM
lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> If you really think you’re going to find 24 karat
> rings you would hunt at all metal when you find a
> target you could interrogated by use of the iron e
> xclusion controls it would give you some sort of i
> dea whether it was ferrous or not.....

Ok. Thus since a modest size 24k ring, will read up into the penny range, it would be rejected by the manta, if someone is in "gold" (low conductor) search strategy, right ?

BTW : I'm not denying that a standard discriminator full-spectrum 100-point TID scale wouldn't ALSO classify it as a "high conductor". Thus for a person trying to "cherry pick" , to favor lows, is ALSO going to miss that ring, with ANY detector's TID. Right ?

However, with a full scale TID , at least the person with the broader range of TID coordinates (graphs, 2-axis TID screens, 100 point scales, etc...) is going to have a fighting chance to know this isn't a "penny/dime".

I will acknowledge though, that the # of gold rings that read up near zinc to dime, is rare. So too is 24k rings rare (that's mostly in Asian cultures). But I *have* seen conditions, so thick (beach storm erosion) where we do begin to ignore high conductors. And the subtle difference between a lower IH (or corroded zinc or whatever) reading, could be our criteria for targets we allow IN to our search parameters. And those could be signals that the Manta classifies into the "high conductor" category. Right ?
Re: New Fisher Manta
October 21, 2018 09:11PM
Ive got 2 24k this year......I’ve got a few heavy class rings that hit a little past the penny
Re: New Fisher Manta
October 21, 2018 10:46PM
it is possible that some targets 24k
will detect / on reject mode
depends on several parameters / weight, dimensions
purity 999.99 is very rare
there are certainly rings stamping 24k
who are 23 some thing ....

but it's still a fake trial
your ring ratio 22k / 18k / 14K / 10K.......
will increase by 30 to 40%
see more compared to your current detector

and again 24k to 999.99
will detect in mode: all metals spinning smiley sticking its tongue out

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Detector used : Fisher Aquamanta /

Pulsepower Goldscan 5c / Aquastar / Goldquest SSV3 / Nexus Coronado / Vista Gold
Re: New Fisher Manta
November 03, 2018 08:52PM
I saw a post where Fisher is going to use a 12.5” coil as the standard coil for this machine. They apparently will be sells smaller ones at an additional cost. I get the thought of more coverage but in the water that size coil is more difficult to PP with and in moving water with a swift long shore drift even shallow water it’s hard to push around. Also, doesnt salt content.... which can very have a greater affect on how low of a uS can be used with a big coil? The DF with the coil connector on the back made coil control even harder. That coil will take in a lot of material under and near the coil. We aren’t all looking for deeper targets or obsessed to cover the whole beach. I’d like to have a 9 or 10” for water hunting. I like to work the water especially for deep targets a lot slower in the water. I’d like to suggest you sell either as a standard coil option since the other coils will be available anyway. I dont know what the price tag will be but I don’t want to have to buy a second coil right off the bat.

I see a 12.5 as a good choice maybe for a VLF...... but i really think 9" like on the old whites surfmaster PI is a great choice for IN the water. Bill Craptree once told me you dont loose a lot of depth with a PI like you do with a VLF when it comes to coils and the 9' was what he preferred.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 12:59PM by dewcon4414.
Re: New Fisher Manta
November 04, 2018 01:10PM
All the protos have used center mounted coils and “flop resistant”” coil attachment

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold
Re: New Fisher Manta
November 04, 2018 05:27PM
Rick....have u heard of what the options might be? I know they really want to get some depth out of this machine.....but in the water right now I think they will reap the same benefits from a smaller coil with better sensitivity that’s where the VLFs seem to be lacking because of the salt settings. If small gold ain’t setting on the hard pan we are missing it. Then the ole question is.....if we are sanded in bad couple of inches don’t make the difference no matter the machine. But the small shallow correlated stuff is.
Re: New Fisher Manta
November 05, 2018 12:45PM
I have seen nothing on optional or accessory coils, but I’m pretty sure the coil is not hard-wired, and it would be easy enough to change coils.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold
Re: New Fisher Manta
November 06, 2018 11:50AM
Its about having to BUY that second coil from the beginning Rick. For some reason when people say ITS A BEACH machine they immediately think i need a BIG coil. Why so they can cover all the beach as FAST as they can. Thats not always the best way to hunt...... its an option, just like having a smaller coil would be and IMO a better option IN the water. Id dare say there are fewer beach hunters using large coils on the beach than a good standard one. Maybe thats the thought process here, more would be likely to buy the standard as an option.
Re: New Fisher Manta
November 06, 2018 01:17PM
Dating back to the first public information about the Manta, the coil design is critical for the short minimum pulse delay and the low noise operation of the Manta. This may mean that alternative coils might not be available at product launch. On the other hand, Alexandre has for many years built PI coils for folks who owned earlier machines and the reports on these have been uniformly excellent - so no shortage of expertise.

The bottom line is we don’t know what is planned. If a smaller coil is ready at launch, the device might be offered like other FT detectors are - with a choice of coils.

It is worth remembering that they announced sometime back that their next development of the PI line will be a land version. For nugget hunting, a choice of coils is even more critical.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold
cdv
Re: New Fisher Manta
November 24, 2018 05:55PM
Nothing new on the Aquamanta? The silence and waiting is killing me here.....

Cliff
Re: New Fisher Manta
November 24, 2018 07:26PM
Sorry guys.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2018 09:31PM by wildwally1.
Re: New Fisher Manta
November 24, 2018 08:01PM
cdv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nothing new on the Aquamanta? The silence and waiting is killing me here.....
>
> Cliff


I've been waiting almost twenty years for Fisher to make a beach machine. Sit back and relax. We might see it next year, or maybe 2020.
Re: New Fisher Manta
November 24, 2018 08:44PM
30 to 40%? I’ll have what you are smoking Rick. Way to many variables to make that SWAG. I’m in line too here. I’d like to see a machine for beach hunting that obviously would obsolete the machines I’m using...and if it gives me that increase it most assuredly would. Cliff..... got my credit card in hand for this one....normally I’m I stay on the fence until it’s been reviewed. Not this time. Cliff....I really think they need a couple of guys (like us smiling smiley) who hunt the Gulf and can get it really wet for hours to try this thing out.
Re: New Fisher Manta
November 24, 2018 09:38PM
Dew - LE.JAG wrote that - not me. For the life of me, I don’t know if he is talking about depth increase or “yield” - number of items found.

My.decoding skills for his “Franglais” aren’t that good.

I know one thing, he does not tell “sea stories” whatever he is claiming, you can bet your beer money that he is basing it on his own experience of using the Manta protos for years in the same circumstances that the has previously used FBS/BBS machines.

Here’s a video they made in France of the Manta prototype and a Soverign XS 2A Pro on mineralized beach sand of a type know as “Alios” - here’s a definition from a Canadian geological handbook - bilingual French/English

iron pan - alios
A thin indurated soil horizon in which iron is a major constituent of the cementing material. Several kinds of cementing materials occur:
I iron - organic matter complexes;
II hydrous oxides of manganese and iron; and
III hydrous iron oxides.

The Manta hits the 2 Euro coin at 40 cm (15.75“) the Severign at 28. Cm (11“). The depth increase is about 40%.

[m.youtube.com]

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold
Re: New Fisher Manta
November 24, 2018 09:58PM
Sorry guys.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2018 09:30PM by wildwally1.
cdv
Re: New Fisher Manta
November 24, 2018 10:57PM
dewcon4414 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cliff..... got my credit card
> in hand for this one....normally I’m I stay on the
> fence until it’s been reviewed. Not this time.
> Cliff....I really think they need a couple of guys
> (like us smiling smiley) who hunt the Gulf and can get it real
> ly wet for hours to try this thing out.


Me too Dew, CC ready and the wife has been primed for months, its a go IF Fisher ever gets it to the street. I'd relish the chance to put it through its paces "In the water". Wet suit and weight belt are ready to go....

Cliff
Re: New Fisher Manta
November 24, 2018 10:59PM
Rick ...sorry man I thought said that. So of course I didn’t know how you could say it without having used the machine. My bad. Ive been around a while... 40% increase in depth maybe ... but I can’t imagine my finds going up that much. Even with the Nox my find numbers didn’t raise to crazy numbers. Conditions are what they are. But I’m looking forward to this machine. I need the depth and sensitivity......I’ll find the targets.
Re: New Fisher Manta
November 24, 2018 11:06PM
Since production PI machines from Fisher won’t be available this year – you’ll have to wait till at least next year for a chance to play with them. Until production machines are ready to ship I doubt that anyone will be allowed to discuss the results of the prototype or pre-production testing in public – that’s not the way that sort of thing works. Once it is released, everybody will be free to tested against whatever they want and the facts will be known pretty quickly.

My Nox 600 isn’t as deep on the beach as my CZ 6 on medium size and up gold rings - it is significantly deeper on small bits. Neither of them could touch my TDI with gb off, the manta is significantly more powerful than the TDI.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold
Re: New Fisher Manta
November 25, 2018 02:58AM
Lytle, have you had a chance to personally use or witness someone using the Manta?
Re: New Fisher Manta
November 25, 2018 03:40AM
I have certain knowledge that it is more powerful than either of the TDI’s I have had. Recently, I saw it hit a nickel buried in black striped sand at a beach in San Diego at 17 - 18” - a Nox 600 in Beach 2 hit the same nickel, buried in the same spot at 7 - 8” max with a VDI of 3 vs. the VDI of 13 on the surface.

The Fisher PI will be extremely powerful and have a very useful degree of iron ID - It also has a remarkable ability to give a clear low conductor signal from a gold ring buried with rusty nails - remove the ring and the nails ID as iron.

I can supply no more details - I do not have one and only used it briefly.

Nobody needs to get all wrapped up in what it might do for them. Plenty of time for that when a production machine is available and that won’t be tomorrow or the day after.

It will not suit all beach hunters. It is for gold. It is not designed for inland use in high mineralization. It will readily detect silver in all metal but would likely ID it as if it were iron - so not for coinshooting - except, of course gold coins!

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2018 03:48AM by lytle78.
Re: New Fisher Manta
November 25, 2018 10:53AM
if it liking alumunium too , its gonna be complicated on polluted beach...
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