What about Jewelry/ Ring "Sink Rate?"

I don't think this is too goofy of a question but...
I'm interested in finding more Rings & jewelry, most of which will have been dropped within the last year or two.
I'm joining an organization that helps people find lost valuables (Mostly rings) & I'm very curious as to the "Sink rate"
of your "Typical" ring compared to a coin. Would a ring sink faster due to the opening in the middle? (Hence the name "Ring")
or typically sink slower for the same reason? I know weight, soil type etc... all play a role but... Any ideas??

Been swingin' a White's since the 70's - 5 machines, Currently an XLT & Fisher F75 LE - 50,000 finds, 30,000 (or so) keepers. Published in the White's catalog. Always looking for good/decent hunting buds! Get in touch!

Those 2 silver rings I found saturday which I know were at least 40 yr's in the ground were 1" & 2" deep. The ground type was typical solid firm dirt, not porous or sandy. Not much of a sink rate. Plus they were within 5 feet of each other under a huge tree (non-pine). And no, there were no tree roots preventing sink. Just clean unobstructed dirt.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2011 08:38PM by TerraDigger.

They do not sink unless they are pushed down in the soil by something or someone.I would think they are covered up/buried at same rate as coins, rocks and trash items at a given site.

silverhound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They do not sink unless they are pushed down in
> the soil by something or someone.I would think
> they are covered up/buried at same rate as coins,
> rocks and trash items at a given site.

I agree, I have found coins and other stuff under old houses that has been there over 50-60 yrs and still on the surface. Dust , vegatation and grass clippings cover and bury objects more than they sink. JMO

Yes, indeed......rings will sink at a different rate.....as compared to coins......in the same dirt matrix. Especially gold. A very high density item.......with a hole in the middle.........and a lot of mass (more than the supporting media..... -dirt-)......and ESPECIALLY a semi-liquid state of wet sand. Dirt is a MUCH slower sink-rate.....vs......wet sand; yet, it's sink-rate will indeed be faster than a coin.....due to the coin having a larger surface area.....preventing it from sinking at a faster rate. Yes.....targets do get covered up from the top.......but the target itself will also sink....due to the media below it being of a lessor density. Gold (and silver) are extremely dense......as compared to its surrounding dirt. A coin made out of silver has a 'certain' mass. A coin made out of the surrounding dirt.....has a different mass.......MUCH lighter (less dense).
ANYTHING that makes the dirt 'shake'.............ie hard rain, thunderstorms, traffic.....etc will 'vibrate' the dirt....causing 'density fall-out'.
Fill a drinking glass with sand............and drop a ring in the sand/glass. Shake the glass at different frequencies.....and watch what happens to the ring. Drop the same ring into a glass full of dirt.........shake the glass at different frequencies.......and see what happens. In both cases.... the ring (silver or gold) will sink................but the dirt will be a somewhat better supporting media.
More often than not............. once a higher (than dirt) density target sinks........it is rare that it will want to defy gravity.......and want to re-surface. This is where a stronger force is required to bring the target back to the surface again...............like erosion, frozen ground, up-lifting tree roots, wash-outs, hurricanes, bulldozers.....etc...................

Hi,, Hey Tom.... LOL...A coin made out of silver has a 'certain' mass. ((((A coin made out of the surrounding dirt)))).....has a different mass.......MUCH lighter (less dense). WOW LOL are you selling them coins made out of that dirt??...JJ

How many do you want to buy, , , I'll be glad to make a bunch! (((( Would a 'wooden nickel' sink at the same rate as a (much heavier) actual nickel ))))

The way this country's money is being de-vauled, our money might as well be made of dirt

Hi,, I'm still laughing at your response...How much are them there coins??????The wooden nickel would probably rot before it sank......Would a greased coin (cuts down on friction)sink faster then a really clean coin????.... JJ

All I know is a gold ring is heavy and if stepped on is driven in the ground and does sink. How fast or how deep of course depends on the type of soil and of course the elements, rain -frost etc.
Taking into consideration finding 6-7 inch pull tabs which are lighter in unfilled areas tells me it could sink quite deep but all a guessing game with many opinions confirmed or not...

Those 6"-7" pulltabs are lighter than dirt. How did they sink?

I regularly find pulltabs at 6", I often wonder too how they got that deep...probably all kinds of reasons other than sinking.
A couple of months ago I found a 111yr old antique gold ring at less than 5"...go figure.

Hi, Usually if you encounter real deep pull tabs the ground has been graded,scraped etc..Unless the ground has a really fast sink rate.....Older coins would normally be deeper yet (but not always) it depends if the ground was scraped,mixed,turned over etc.or how the ground was all mixed up (if at all)...In some cases Injun's could even be found on the surface if the ground was just mixed around or leveled etc....Below I try to explain sink rate on objects....This is just one example of how objects sink in the ground...I also believe this is one of the main reasons why an object sinks in the ground.. This would also answer the one question asked about why a coin did not sink much under a house....When a coin,ring etc.sinks in the ground,it moves down with GRAVITY. This is my theory on how rain helps an object sink deeper in the ground...Rain creates a (slurry,mud) underground.(I can't think of the word I want to use here) (anyways).The amount of water displaced by an object depends on the mass of that object. Mass is the amount of matter in a substance, and dense objects have more mass than less dense objects. Dense objects (coins,rings,etc.) that do not displace much water will sink faster, while less dense (coins rings, etc.) that displace more water will sink a lot slower.....I think this theory could & does explain a few things that are possible...(like why a lot of coins are found only so deep 8" or less)...Rain water loses it sinking ability after an object gets so deep.... Just my opinion on this topic.....JJ

(below is example about mass &-Vs. dense & displacement of an object)

A ball of clay will sink, but a canoe shape made from the same amount of clay can float because it pushes more fluid out of its way in relation to its weight.

Dirt and aluminum both have a specific gravity of about 2.65-------- 2.7, so considering the shape of a pull tab it should not sink, and I don't believe they do. I think mostly they get covered and sometimes pushed down.

Hi,, Yeah you are probably right....Thanks for the info.......JJ

What happens 'on top'......is just as important as what happens 'underneath'. Targets do sink on their own. The more dense....the more enhanced/rapid the sink-rate.......as compared to other objects of similar shape/displacement yet; of lighter (less dense) material.

What happens 'on top'.....(from the top). Foliage, sand, dirt etc.........moved by wind/rain....from this continuous dynamic Earth.....will also bury things that are of the same (or less dense than surrounding environ) objects. There are times that you will recover something that is LESS dense that the dirt that it is buried in. You may recover a childs hollow plastic ball.........that weighs less than the dirt it displaces...........yet; it became buried.

Events above-the-Earth-surface.......are just as important as beneath-the-ground.

Hi, ((((I can harmonize with your thoughts Tom))))....()() JJ ()()



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2011 04:12PM by jimmyjiver.

Ah, I finally asked a decent question!! Thanks for the responses & info guys!!!

Been swingin' a White's since the 70's - 5 machines, Currently an XLT & Fisher F75 LE - 50,000 finds, 30,000 (or so) keepers. Published in the White's catalog. Always looking for good/decent hunting buds! Get in touch!

From Minlab's website Treasure Talk...

Why coins sink...

It’s Kinetic Energy.
Kinetic energy from rainfall is the main reason why objects sink in soil. Think about it for a moment...the size of the raindrops and their impact on the ground, and their respective kinetic energy is responsible for soil erosion which causes objects to be continually pounded by such concentrated energy over time (hundreds of years in cases) causing objects to sink by miniscule degrees and the rate of sink level/s is dependent on rainfall levels and intensity of rainfall in any given area. The larger the droplet the more energy is generated to move objects, push them , even turn them on their side and eventually to bury them out of view. Gravity, loose soils, seasonal changes, animals foraging, human and animal traffic and spring thaws also play their roles in eventually swallowing up objects from the surface to feet deep.

[www.minelab.com]

IMHO this may contribute to coin sinking but surely is not the the only reason.

Anyone ever dial in gravity and the earth moving on an axis as surely a part of the equasion...

Gravity is the reason we get older and shorter as we fight it all our life....as far as the earth spinning sort of like trying to figure out sink rates and such...certainly lots of opinions that can may your head spin also....

Things certainly do "get" down under the dirt, its just my opionin that they get covered as much, and sometime more than they sink.

If coins/rings do indeed sink to any degree in any soil that is not in a very muddy state
(still waiting for scientific proof either way), Would not a coin on edge sink much faster than one flat?

I have found way to many old coins in undisturbed rural areas that were less than one inch deep to believe they sink under normal soil conditions.Many near mint condition Indian head pennies were found on the grounds surface in undisturbed by man timbered areas where fires burned the dead leaves/mulch off every few years. Some northern areas with deep frost lines actually heave coins and other item upward to make them become shallower rather than sink deeper.

I have discovered discovered several 200 plus year old Indian camp sites with stone fire rings still exposed in nice forested black Midwest soils.Why did the rocks not sink in over 200 years???

I to have recovered items from parks that were much lighter than the local soils relatively speaking that were quite deep and I am sure they did not sink to said levels.

Any type of hoofed animals will trample soft soils and drive items deeper as well.

I'd like to add some thoughts to this thread. These are my opinions based on somewhat limited observational evidence that might be worth tossing into this.

I have serious questions regarding "sink rate" in some areas, and in some soil types. Sandy soil, where it rains heavily and very frequenly (like Florida for instance) -- in those spots there is no question in my mind. Probably similar in areas of deep, loose topsoil. BUT, I'm just not sure there is enough credit being given to soil DENSITY. I don't think, in those types of soils, that "sink rate" can be accepted as a general truth.

I live in Oklahoma. We have VERY DENSE clay here. Might as well be CONCRETE when it is dry. I used to detect ONLY the big city parks, which have been hammered hard over the years. If I find an old coin, it is almost INVARIABLY deep. Over time, this contributed to my general acceptance of the idea that yes, coins sink, and as such, nearly ALL older coins are thus DEEP. However, with time, I started to acquire evidence that this conclusion (old coins are deep in my city's parks due to SINKAGE) was perhaps no as correct as I had once thought; in fact, a more correct conclusion, I have started to believe, is that old coins are deep in my city's parks PRIMARILY due to the fact that SHALLOW OLD COINS HAVE BEEN FOUND ALREADY! This gives the APPEARANCE that old coins are deep due to sinkage, when it's at least as likely that old coins are deep -- because many detectorists, hammering the parks with generally shallower-seeking detectors, have simply REMOVED the shallower coins, leaving ONLY the coins which somehow ended up deeper.

To continue...with experience, I started to branch out into sites that I felt could hold old coins, and yet would likely NOT have been pounded so hard by detectorists in the past. What did I find in doing this? Obviously, the old coins are MUCH more plentiful. Further, though, I found that MANY old coins are NOT deep. MOST, in fact, are NOT (again, only speaking about coins in dense Oklahoma clay). I have simply found TOO MANY 70 to 100 year old coins at 2-4" in depth, to continue to ascribe to "sink rate" as simply a general truth. The three oldest coins I have found in the past six months or so, a 1904 Barber dime, a 1913 wheat penny, and a 1916 Mercury dime, have ALL been 3" or less -- the Barber being shallowest at 2 1/2". All three of these have been on perfectly flat ground (no erosion), in spots where I am nearly CERTAIN, due the proximity of old sidewalks, etc., that no dirt work has been done/soil removed. Each of these coins were found in hard, dense clay ground.

Further, I often find coins near the INTERFACE between the organic topsoil and the deeper clay layer, where such topsoil exists. For instance, I was back at one of the old, well-hammered parks in town yesterday, and as such expected any old coins to be deeper. Hunting under two huge sycamore trees, my SE Pro hit a good "mid-depth" coin signal. So, I started digging. Despite our extreme drought we are currently in, I found in this particular spot a good layer of dark, organic soil under those huge trees that was easy digging. I suspected, while digging, that the coin would be very close to the interface of the loose, organic stuff and the hard clay layer just underneath. So, I shoved down the shovel through the topsoil until I hit the very obvious layer of rock-hard clay, and pulled out the 5-ish inch deep plug. No coin. I stuck in the Pro Pointer, which showed the coin about an inch deeper in the hole. Sure enough, after jack-hammering my shovel about an inch or so down into the hard clay, a 6" wheatie (I'm still soaking the coin to find a date, but I'll suspect it's probably 1940s -- would probably have been just a bit deeper into the hard clay if it was older, I'm guessing). Anyway, to me this is just another little piece of confirming evidence, among many other experiences I've had, that suggests that soil TYPE strongly affects how much a coin will actually "sink." Surely SOME of the depth is due to "sinking." But, I don't think sink rate is all of the story in many soil types. In fact, it might not even be the MAJORITY of the story, in harder/denser soil types with little organic material.

Just some long-winded thoughts.

Steve

Very good observations! If any of you have the time........on the home-page of this website............in the Fisher Intelligence section..............read the article titled: "Soil Conditions/Sink Rate". This should add to the info/data-base.

I think the deepest coin are found in parks that have the grass mowed frequently. The grass clippings build up over the years, decompose,the sod builds up and eventually the coins are deeep.

Very good points for sure.I can only speak of my personal findings in MO and KS soils for the most part and they are rather dense as well in most areas.Their are so many variables when considering sink rates in soil that it needs to be studied by locality I feel.What I discover in my local soil types/compositions will most likely differ from the findings from other geographical ares. Annual rainfall averages would play a roll as well no doubt .Areas with frozen soils during winter verses less cold climates would differ as well.
I would speculate that most deeper coins as in 6" or more in my soil types got there from landscape fill covering/burying them.

Nothing like digging 9"+ clad in the local old parks now is there.........

NASA Tom -- read the article you mentioned, very good education contained therein. Some of what you wrote there (about assessing the site, and seeing that areas with sparse grass should hold shallower targets) is also covered in your "Inland Coin and Relic Hunting" video -- which is absolutely terrific.

Steve

I've found most coins less than 4" deep with only a few as deep as 8" . I've found a silver half dollar at 2" and a penny at 5" in the same grassy spot with pull-tabs circa 1963 from near to the surface to 5" deep. There have been coin spills where the coins are together and others where some had sunk several inches deeper. I've dug light aluminum pencil eraser tips to 7" - too light for density to be a factor (aluminum and soil are about the same density). I think that judging the age of an area by coin dates is fairly reliable but probably much less so if using coin depth, which varies by many factors.

I will surmise that if you leave a coin undisturbed by human interference (cultivation, sodding, fill-dirt), it will sink no further than the depth that rainwater percolation can fully saturate, and that depth depends greatly on soil texture, depth of topsoil, and organic content. There are more reasons for coins not to sink than to sink (particles too large, particles too small to permit percolation, obstacles in the way (roots and rocks, etc.)

Within the same field the soil texture can vary greatly - all things being equal, two coins can be at different depths based on differing percolation depths, which is governed by the varying soil texture. Consider the effect that over-saturated soil has due to heavy rains, such that the ground's micropores easily sort the grains by size - larger grains sink and tiny grains are sorted to the surface. This sorting process is probably effective to a depth of 2-5" in most organic soils and deeper in small silica soils.

Irrespective of density, the coins or junk targets will settle within the soil matrix - if the soil is already well sorted it would take very heavy rains to further alter the arrangement - and the coins stay put where they fell with density making a small contribution. The other factor is grubs, worms and whatnot that mix the soil and would permit more settling to occur - where the surface soil is barren of plant life this mixing action will be greatly reduced or stopped.

The largest factor in getting coins deeper than 2-5" is via man's intervention: through the addition of topsoil, tilling, landscaping, irrigation, sodding, etc. While the decomposition of organic matter (naturally occurring) may add only an estimated 1" of additional soil for every 10-20 years, a sodding or back-fill project can add 4" overnight.

So, the explanation as to why there appears to be coins at every depth is that coins are at every depth - along with light pull-tabs and .22 casing. Density is a factor only if other stronger forces are not operating. Remember: Soils that appears to be impenetrable hard-pan in the dry summer is often a muddy mess in the rainy season - and sorting continues in the spring through the action of soil critters followed by more ground water seepage. Also, flooding can do rapid burial and sorting at once - and who is to know what natural weather phenomena affected a particular soil patch over the last half century (or didn't affect it due to being slightly elevated)?

My estimation: The coins stop sinking where ever the soil texture is no longer adequately saturated to liquefy and sort, and/or the coins/junk meet an immovable obstacle, whichever comes first.

I would wager that coins will be found less than 3" deep in most soils (75% of soils), 3-5" in better draining soils (20% of soils), 5-8" deep in the right combination of fine soil textures, heavy or continuous rains, possible organic content or have been overwhelmed by man-made overburden (7% of detected soil). If coins are at > 8" deep you are seeing a rare anomaly representing perhaps 1-2% of soils detected (depth gained from a variety of processes above).

There is bias in the depth because detectors are limited to about 10-12" on coin size objects and are therefore less likely to detect coins at > 8", but I think the overall assessment holds true. In cases of silica beach sand - the coin depth is more volatile, still based on water percolation but also beach erosion from wind and water (and storms) which can increase (or decrease) coin/junk depth rapidly as compared to the more benign inland hunting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2011 10:01PM by Johnnyanglo.

VERY good data input!

Two additional thoughts (additions):

1. For example (IRT density)..... a heavy/high density gold coin ((....vs.....copper coin.....vs......aluminum coin)): will indeed have a greater propensity to sink at a bit faster rate (especially in wet mud/dirt).

2. Most of the coins (old era) that I wish to find.... are at depths of 11" - 27" here in sand-bar Florida. This has been positively verified... and on numerous occasions. Archaeological site excavation included.

>>>Most of the coins (old era) that I wish to find.... are at depths of 11" - 27" here in sand-bar Florida....

That's sad because even if we had the detectors to go over a foot (and yes, I know there are some small exceptions in both detectors and targets), in most place we wouldn't be willing to chase the targets that deep. I know for the wet sand on the beach, you reach a point of diminishing returns because the sand fills in too quickly to get the very deep targets out.