Socialism or ?

It's good to read this ever now and then to remind us why we should never let the politicians take away our guns. Some of them have forgotten who they work for.

From the Declaration of Independence

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness—That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

tabman

Our Founders were magnificent.

therover61 Wrote:
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> Trump calls this a war, and references WWII.
>
> There is a stark difference between the era of WWI
> I and today.
>
> During WWII, there were NO bailouts. For company's
> or people. The country MADE THINGS. Taxes also wen
> t UP.

Since you mentioned the WW2 era, that's not entirely true. With the election to the U.S. presidency of Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1933, a number of historically significant, precedent-setting government bailouts and rescue programs were enacted, which were designed to relieve the economic woes that afflicted the country's people and businesses. These programs continued throughout WW2.

He may simply have been talking about the need to come together as a whole nation for the good of the nation

Worst than WW 11 if it gets out of control. Most have read or herd of these but for those who haven't. These are just the top 10, there have been more. Thanks to scientists and healthcare workers the spread will be controlled and not forgetting those governments trying to do the right things and people everywhere doing the right thing.

[www.mphonline.org]

El

So how many of you think these bailouts will help the people more than the corporations/millionaire/billionaire class ?

I for one think the latter.

Inflation is pretty simple to understand. Give 2 people $10 each. They both need to buy a bag of potato chips. But there is only 1 bag to buy. Both people have to have the chips and are willing to pay as much as they have to get them. Only 1 person can buy the bag. How much does that bag of chips cost in this example ? $10.

Now...give both people $5 extra. They didn't have to work for that $5...it just magically appeared in their hands. How much does that bag now cost ( the bag does not have any more chips in it...no different packaging...NOTHING HAS CHANGED).

Answer...$15. The cost of the bag just increased 50% by simply giving them free money.

As of now they kept the prices the same but tinkered with the packaging, weight, number of chips in the bag, etc. Now watch.

Watch the price increases in toilet paper, bottled water and paper towels when the free money rains down. Shoot...it's already starting as businesses are front running the helicopter money fiasco.

OK-----So what's going to happen to gold prices through all this??-----Predictions???----Anybody???-----Up, down, sideways----what???

There is massive competition in the area of consumer products. Across the board price hikes are unlikely. In fact, due to hoarding, once the supply chain has caught up, there will be a large surplus of this stuff and hungry manufacturers will likely cut prices to move product.

We are very likely to have some pretty severe “deflation” as a result of this epidemic. Lots of dead folks who won’t be buying any more, lots of folks out of work because things like retail are likely to have a pretty high “business mortality rate”, and tons of folks who have been spending their 401k money and suddenly a bunch of it is gone.

The idea of “helicopter money” is not crazy. The ‘30’s depression didn’t really end till WWII started and the US started building lots of war related stuff - first for export, then lend-else and then to build up our own armed forces. All that money went into paychecks and businesses.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

dewcon4414 Wrote:
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> He may simply have been talking about the need to come together as a whole nation for the good of the nation

That's what he was talking about, taking over manufacturing here like they did in WW2 to produce goods that will be needed to fight this, like masks, ventilators, gowns, etc.

A business in Rochester, NY that's been a suit maker for generations was pressed into service to make medical masks, as the hospitals there are two days away from being completely out, not good.

therover61 Wrote:
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> So how many of you think these bailouts will help
> the people more than the corporations/millionaire/
> billionaire class ?

If you're talking about the corporate bailouts, that's the wrong question. The wealthy already helped themselves during the stock buy-backs that jacked up stock prices and made people rich(er). The situation we have now is called "left holding the bag." If the companies don't get bailouts, they could fold and the people who get hurt will be the average workers. The people at the top will be fine regardless, they already got theirs, so the bailouts won't help them.

This is an example of what deregulation gets you. Make no mistake, government regulations are a form of socialism but they provide operating boundaries and level playing fields, things intended for the Public Good. Deregulation pushes us to a truer form of capitalism. A strict conservative-capitalist will be fine with the situation we're in now, and will oppose the bailouts and allow the companies to fold. Too bad for the workers. Again, that's true capitalism. Those who don't like the way things are turning out might want to stop voting against their own self-interests.

The only countries in the world that have anything which can be called “socialism” are the few broken-down fringes of the old Soviet sphere of influence. Cuba, North Korea and to a degree Venezuela.

China isn’t socialist - the government doesn’t own “the means of production”’ - it is a one-party dictatorship with a strong mixed state owned/capitalist economic system

Russia isn’t socialist - it is an authoritarian kleptocracy.

Western European countries have mainly mixed economies where the capitalist ownership of “the means of production” is balanced by a high degree of social welfare legislation and a mix of government and labor union influence on the operation of the capitalist economic system.

We here in the US are much closer to the classical 19th and 20th century free market capitalism.

The first controls over absolute economic power of capital here happend with the “Trust Busting” of the early 20th century.

With the world-wide economic collapse of the late 1920’s and 1930’s the American voters turned to a president who promised and, to a degree, delivered a series of programs which both limited the power of unbridled capitalism (the Securities and Exchange Commission for example) and a degree of economic support to the least powerful in the population. The centerpiece of this was Social Security - attacked by the opposition (R) as socialist if not Communist.

Where we are now is at a crossroads.

When On July 8, 1853, American Commodore Matthew Perry led his four ships into the harbor at Tokyo Bay, seeking to re-establish for the first time in over 200 years regular trade and discourse between Japan and the western world, the Japanese realized that their entire social, political and economic systems were doomed - that for Japan to survive in this new world of freedom of trade and ideas that they would have to compete with the West.

Perhaps Covid-19 for us will be like Commodore Perry’s black steam warships - a thing which appears “out of nowhere” and changes everything.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2020 11:54PM by lytle78.

Capitalism is a failure. The rich got it all. 22 Trillion in debt. There is no coming back from that. Grandkids Paying it back? By then it will be 44 trillion. The politicians on both sides realize the number is meaningless. The debt just doesnt matter. The idea of paying it back is a fairytale.

These last couple of weeks has pointed out quite a few alarming things when it comes to the boasted about capitalist ways.

1. The rich got richer. They bet on a losing horse to lose and made an incredible amount of money. They shorted the stocks and boy oh boy did it pay. Making money the old fashion way. On the misery of others. 2.Others like some of our represenatives got the early word and sold. I believe Martha should be pissed about that one. 3. An overwhelming number of people in our capitalist society have no money other than that next check. Save it for a rainy day? Or save it for a pandemic?

Capitalism? It isnt any more successful than anything else. At least not for 99 percent of the citizens living in it. Eventually the suffering and greed will do what it has done since the beginning of man. Make way for the next trial of society.

IMHO, we have failed as a nation. Capitalism ins't sustainable without integrity. We haven't had a true capitalist system in several decades.

This recent buying frenzy ….. (resultant: empty shelves)…… has generated a ton of tax-revenue...….within the last couple of weeks. (Mind you: food isn't --------shouldn't be-------- taxed). Where does this 'sudden tax wealth' go!!!

Because we are so far in debt, any new tax revenue doesn't even register on the meter. It's already been spent before it's collected.

Yes here in Crook County Illinois they tax for food and anything else they can bleed out of you. Property taxes are crazy. I pay more in a month on one acre of land than my Mom pays in a year on 4 acres in Alabama.

Not sure about the rest of the US but foods that are taxable in Pennsylvania include prepared foods. This would be food you bought from restaurants or caterers. Most foods in the grocery store such as milk, bread, eggs, fruits and vegetable are not taxable.

Same place the 100 Billion in US dollars of new tariff revenues goes and we pay for that out of our pockets when we purchase goods made in China or made here with Chinese materials. $5 dollar screwdriver now $8.

Taxes collected on food, toilet paper, and hand sanitizer etc. may have increased but the taxes on other items have decreased with all the store closings. Also keep in mind that the total purchases of items like toilet paper and extra food will level out over time and so will the taxes collected on those items. I was in the home building and land developing business before retiring. Over the years we had peaks and valleys. The higher the peaks and the longer they lasted the worst the bad times that followed. On the other hand, the longer the bad times lasted, the better the good times to follow. Timing is everything.

tabman