Masking at its finest..

Several years ago after hunting the largest and most affluent yard in town and 10 silvers and approx. 50 wheaties I felt time to lower the disc. to try for a gold ring..Getting a solid foil hit at two inches I recovered a small junker gold filled womans ring and thru force of habit went over the hole and got a solid high coin reading at 5 inches which turned out to be a 1837 large cent. Having hunted this yard for hours I know I went over that area with a high disc. and the ring above it masked out the large coin. One wonders after 20 years did I go over that bust coin or gold coin and never heard it given the same circumstances. I would imagine thats why an area is never completely worked out no matter how many detectors have scanned it.

Dan, that's why I have hunted the same 4 fields for 8 years now, I dug all the high signals, then the mid signals then the low, now I digging all the iron signals and next year I'll start it all over again, every time I go out I dig something, it's not coming home with gold everytime for me after hunting for 11 years, it's learning something new every time I go out

Caretaker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dan, that's why I have hunted the same 4 fields
> for 8 years now, I dug all the high signals, then
> the mid signals then the low, now I digging all
> the iron signals and next year I'll start it all
> over again, every time I go out I dig something,
> it's not coming home with gold everytime for me
> after hunting for 11 years, it's learning
> something new every time I go out

ehehe, that is a riot! I actually have a field I hunt all the time (really a small part, like 200X200ft) and it has stopped producing old silver. I thought when I got my V3i I would find silver coins my Omega missed, but I have only found two low conductors that it missed (makes sense). I will have to start playing with settings and use it as a learning experience. There is a ton of iron there, no EMI and next to no ground mineralization. I already run with no discrimination. Ideas??? I've thought to go through it with my 5" Excelerator coil. Or even putting on the large stock 10"D2 with the settings turned up for the heck of it, just to see if it goes against logic.On a trail, I actually pulled a couple of nice VERY Old coins (like 300 - 400 years old) with that 5" coil after going over the same area with the 6X10 first - so I know it sees between the iron. I turn the gain down over 50%, enough to reduce the edge effect of the coil to just the coils width (turned up higher the edge goes 2" past the edge of the coil!) On the V3i this is a setting of 6 out of 15.

Nice topic Dan...

to each his own,,,, the method you use (hunting the highs, then the mids,,,,etc) would drive me crazy !!! I could not stand the thought of walking over a good target (when in high only mode) with a MD in hand.Each time you go over the area you KNOW that there are gonna be less targets (cuz you dug some already) per the same area. I prefer to hit it and dig all good desirable target hits as I go. Cover it 100% ( I know that is not possible) but then I come back at the area from a different angle or direction. Always using ) disc. My thought is,,,,, what if I didn't get back to the area ever again? At least what area I hunted I would be happy to know that I dug as many targets as I could..... that's just me thought,,,,ya gotta do what works for you HH !!!

Absolutely Dan....You went over a bust coin....I know it sounds bad but everyone of us have swung over the find of a lifetime and never even heard a peep...

I am almost certain of this.....

Masking is awful.....especially when high discrimination is used.....

I have always chased relics and have used lower than normal disc but the sites I hunt allow such.....a manicured lawn and nice pristine park does not or will not allow target sniffing.....

And whats also bad is even if you had of say had your machine on say low disc but been in tone mode and relied on that solely you would of still not dug the foil if you were chasing coins only...

One of the reasons I don't even care for tone's and i.d. meter's is sometimes you try to rely on such info that is o.k if used for clad money in tot lot's at 3 inches deep....

I think that's one of the misconceptions that I.D. machines offer's...people wonder why they cant dig deep silver jaw dropping find's in say the 150 year old home's...Well they can but that quarter or that half wont read quarter or half or maybe not even foil.... Sometimes you will be lucky if it reads scratchy nail

The Bust coins or any coins for that matter have already been got with the machine's that read there proper I.D.....and that's only a fraction of what's really there....

Detector technology especially in the I.D. department matured a quarter of a century ago and what it is is what it is...

Sure we have faster processor's and better coils for tougher dirt and quicker response but the same principals apply in detector design from a couple of decades ago and the target I.D. inaccuracy is one of them....And I don't see it changing till something revolutionary comes along...

I know I have hunted a few yard in my time that were supposedly hunted out...But to my amazement there was an abundance of older coins even seated that were left....But I was using nail disc and dug all targets that were solid sounding....Not chasing funky splattery weird hits because I did not have the luxury but just solid hit's and lot's of coins surfaced along with other thing's but if I had been using a meter probably 80% would of been in the junk area...

The best stuff is still waiting to be found...How are we going to get it is the question???


Good post Dan

Keith

Right on Keith!

On my Omega.......I find ID to be quite useful, in conjunction with tones.....even masked targets can produce particular ID's that indicate non-ferrous next to ferrous. Using 13 disc........Take a 2" rusty nail, place it on top of a 2" high plastic cap. Place a clad quarter under the cap. You will get a distinctive ID........sweeping the length of the nail, the detector is gives the double-blip...................re-sweep at a 90 degree change in angle.......and the target ID gives you a reading that indicates a co-located target involving a nail. If you slowly sweep the exact center of the coil over the masked quarter, you get a faint repeatable 80 TID in that sweep direction.......and the classic nail double-blip with the 90 degree angle shift along the lengthwise axis of nail.
Now this is probably particular to the Omega, as Tom D. noted in his field testing, the Omega goes null on nails (when they are by themselves and not co-located) when Omega stock concentric coil sweeps them along their long axis. And a iron reading when sweeping the 1/8" width of the nail. Nonetheless, the TID is useful in this situation. Along with the tones.
Even if I am not getting a coin TID, the double blip indicates a nail, and if I am getting any kind of TID sweeping in the other direction, the TID is indicating a non-ferrous target is by/under that nail.
This only works with the concentric coil........DD coils cannot do the above.
I forgot to add following. In order for the above to work with the Omega (and perhaps other machines), the non-ferrous object needs to have a mass greater than the nail. In above example, a dime will not produce the desired results. Also, as the coil distance from the non-ferrous item increases, the ability to get the TID reading decreases. The signal decrease is not the same as what occurs in a normal increase of coil distance from an object, but it seems that the iron signal overpowers the non-ferrous object signal as coil distance increases.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2011 03:25AM by TerraDigger.

Hey Dan were you using the SE or the CZ?

It really has 'deep meaning' to me.... to see the members of this forum 'maturing' so much.......... especially in the department of real-world conditions.

You mean it isn't always about depth depth depth? And I was just about to purchase that big shovel. I always hunted with a certain detector back in " the day". A good detector with a fairly good depth punch to it. Then I did something unusual for me. I bought the AT Pro. I'm not claiming that the AT Pro is the greatest at anything. But one thing it did for me is open my eyes to target separation. I never realized the amount of masked targets until I used this new detector. And I thought I knew a lot about detecting. Like I said " A real eye opener". Old stomping grounds are new again.

Keith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Absolutely Dan....You went over a bust coin....I
> know it sounds bad but everyone of us have swung
> over the find of a lifetime and never even heard a
> peep...
>
> I am almost certain of this.....
>
> Masking is awful.....especially when high
> discrimination is used.....
>
> I have always chased relics and have used lower
> than normal disc but the sites I hunt allow
> such.....a manicured lawn and nice pristine park
> does not or will not allow target sniffing.....
>
> And whats also bad is even if you had of say had
> your machine on say low disc but been in tone mode
> and relied on that solely you would of still not
> dug the foil if you were chasing coins only...
>
> One of the reasons I don't even care for tone's
> and i.d. meter's is sometimes you try to rely on
> such info that is o.k if used for clad money in
> tot lot's at 3 inches deep....
>
> I think that's one of the misconceptions that I.D.
> machines offer's...people wonder why they cant dig
> deep silver jaw dropping find's in say the 150
> year old home's...Well they can but that quarter
> or that half wont read quarter or half or maybe
> not even foil.... Sometimes you will be lucky if
> it reads scratchy nail
>
> The Bust coins or any coins for that matter have
> already been got with the machine's that read
> there proper I.D.....and that's only a fraction of
> what's really there....
>
> Detector technology especially in the I.D.
> department matured a quarter of a century ago and
> what it is is what it is...
>
> Sure we have faster processor's and better coils
> for tougher dirt and quicker response but the same
> principals apply in detector design from a couple
> of decades ago and the target I.D. inaccuracy is
> one of them....And I don't see it changing till
> something revolutionary comes along...
>
> I know I have hunted a few yard in my time that
> were supposedly hunted out...But to my amazement
> there was an abundance of older coins even seated
> that were left....But I was using nail disc and
> dug all targets that were solid sounding....Not
> chasing funky splattery weird hits because I did
> not have the luxury but just solid hit's and lot's
> of coins surfaced along with other thing's but if
> I had been using a meter probably 80% would of
> been in the junk area...
>
> The best stuff is still waiting to be found...How
> are we going to get it is the question???
>
>
> Good post Dan
>
> Keith


of course in a perfect world,we ALL would be hunting private yards,
but your statements certainly have merit! makes ya wonder if a $1,000.00,
or $1,500.00 detector is necessary at all! as i read your post,it suddenly occurs to me
that i have been hunting the wrong sites! public parks,and school grounds are "trash pits"
and are more like work to hunt,even when using a small coil!. no joy! that said,i am going to "specialize"
in hunting "old" sidewalk easements,AND farm fields. let the hunt begin!..just sayin'

(h.h.!)
j.t.

finding a good place to hunt is allot of the fun for me,,, I just discovered a CCC camp from the thirties,,,,,hope I'm the first one to MD it,,,,

Then there is the clad hunting.....one particular hunt I was doing years back.
I was only interested in gathering clad...was needing to get out and exercise and wrong time of the year for relic hunting.
So I scanned over a particular place...full of usual pulltabs but got a penny ID from the 3300 I was using
and so down maybe an inch was a gold ring...reswept and the penny was right under it.
That was pure luck but brought a smile to my face......never know what is under the ground.....

As an addendum know of 3 gold coins found in the area and 2 were in change purses and most likely gold coin was disced out but one of the other coins in it were not or perhaps the copper clasp was picked up as a high coin...
So luck does play a part...Just as a gold chain will not be picked up but the pendant on it will scenario...

I'd rather be lucky than good anytime !!!!

I have found that when hunting an area no matter what you are looking for you almost have to have a different mindset for hunting masked targets. I think that is why when I get a dirty scratchy tone even if it comes up iron there could be a good target hiding in the ground with it..so just hoping to get a mixed high tone I would say you have to dig it all when you get even a dirty tone...And I am sure you will pull out a nail or something of that nature but you may find a good target or have cleaned an area that is hiding a good target. Or that is when someone comes back weeks later and gets a better tone and finds the masked target...That must be one of TOM'S ways of hunting...

LowBoy

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Steve(MS) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Then there is the clad hunting.....one particular
> hunt I was doing years back.
> I was only interested in gathering clad...was
> needing to get out and exercise and wrong time of
> the year for relic hunting.
> So I scanned over a particular place...full of
> usual pulltabs but got a penny ID from the 3300 I
> was using
> and so down maybe an inch was a gold
> ring...reswept and the penny was right under it.
> That was pure luck but brought a smile to my
> face......never know what is under the ground.....


steve! i just wish that i could be content with finding clad,as the hobby would be a lot less demanding,and a heck of a lot more fun,
however, such is NOT the case with me,as my overriding passion is "old coins" i am truly tired of hunting all the "s**t pits"
so with that said,it's time once again,to hit the 'books" so to speak,get back to basics and do some serious research! it IS the only way for me to stay
"engaged" ..just sayin'

(h.h.!)
j.t.

Lawrenzo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have found that when hunting an area no matter
> what you are looking for you almost have to have a
> different mindset for hunting masked targets. I
> think that is why when I get a dirty scratchy tone
> even if it comes up iron there could be a good
> target hiding in the ground with it..so just
> hoping to get a mixed high tone I would say you
> have to dig it all when you get even a dirty
> tone...And I am sure you will pull out a nail or
> something of that nature but you may find a good
> target or have cleaned an area that is hiding a
> good target. Or that is when someone comes back
> weeks later and gets a better tone and finds the
> masked target...That must be one of TOM'S ways of
> hunting...


i dont disagree with this analogy at all,and after 33 years of hunting,i know this is "fact" not fiction.
the issue is, it is an "EVENT PHSYCOLOGICAL" the detectorist HAS to be thinking this way with EVERY sweep of the
coil in a trashy area that DEMANDS this close scrutiny.i would be less than honest if i was to indicate that i 'seldom"
ascribe to this "necessary effort"..why? to be blunt and to the point,it is a "GIANT PAIN IN THE A**",and it is a lot of
"work"which is just "one" of the reasons there is a "ton" of good stuff still in the ground being masked. the hobby is supposed to be fun,and,
to a certain extent,rewarding,but when it becomes more like "work"then to be perfectly honest,it LOSES a lot of it's appeal. granted,i agree that it is a terrific feeling of
accomplishment to recover a "nice" target when doing what one "must" do in a "junked" area,however if you measure it by the time expended, as well as the 'work involved,
it can get "old" in a big damn hurry! again in my view,this is an "event phsycological"and if you "can" get in the correct "mindset",than "all bets are off",and you are all set!
just sayin'

(h.h.!)
j.t.

j.t., that was years ago and certainly clad hunting is on the bottom rung.
Gas prices make it even more unattractive yet there are still valuables laying out there.
Its been a long time since I did a clad hunt.

yeah! i hear ya steve! can't really get into "'clad"
although, these days,lots of hunts are "bust" if ya don't dig enough clad to pay your gas bill!
just sayin' yes i believe that's true!, a lot of good stuff waitin' to be found!

(h.h.!)
j.t.

In my limited experience, every-time a target is retrieved you've created a slightly different environment which may allow you to detect objects which were previously masked. I've been hunting areas that have been hunted for the better part of 30 years by a few very seasoned MD'ers using quite capable machines and have successfully been acquiring new coins for my collection. They have gotten most of the good targets but they haven't gotten them all. When I first took up this wonderful hobby last year I was becoming discouraged listening to the veterans in my area describe to me how they've "hunted out" this area or that area. I'm very pleased I decided to hunt these "hunted out" areas. The reason I've found targets they've missed is more than likely due to the fact that they've unmasked targets during the recovery of objects they have successfully retrieved. There are also "cherry pickers" who hunt areas and only hunt the very obvious high tones seeking elusive silver coins and purposely leave behind junk signals consisting of bottle caps, pull tabs and the like. I typically dig everything that gives a repeatable signal and in doing so unmask some of the better finds they've left behind. There's an area near my home that I've decided I've cleared of all good targets but whenever I decide to return I ALWAYS manage to find at least one or two more silver coins.

JeffNS.... correct. Case-in-point: yesterday, I recovered 2 aluminum screw-caps approx 11" apart from each other..... and both caps were approx 3" deep. After the removal of these two (high-tone/coin-tone) targets...... I then...........(and only then)........... could hear 2 more high-tone targets... and at approx 8" deep. . . . . . in this 'cubic-yard' of (now unmasked) soil. Both newly acquired... newly unmasked targets turned out to be two wheat pennies.

Best scenario to date (that I can report) was..... I bent over to pick up a surface (barely visible) crushed aluminum beer can. Suddenly......... within a 3' x 3' area (of where the aluminum can 'was')...... I could detect 4 independent coins. Three were wheats........... one was a silver Roosevelt dime. Educational instillment ensued.

I was talking to a detector dealer who said the park near his home and business was hunted out. Went there with the f-75 a few times and found two seated dimes a large cent and several indians and wheats. When I saw him again at his store, I said to him "I thought the park was hunted out" He said "I never said that". Yea, ok, I thought.

Ozzie, its only hunted out for other detectorists, but not for the dealer and his buddies.

Guys --

Threads like this are so informative. Much appreciated. I have long planned to hit my local "hunted out" park (built in 1891 -- and in which, aside from modern clad, I have found maybe a dozen wheats and ZERO silver) -- and dig up ALL the junk in small areas at a time, and see if I then can't "unmask" a few silvers. I plan to do that this winter...and after reading this thread, it inspires me. Right now, I have little confidence in this approach -- because I've never had it work for me in a "first-hand" type situation (even though I fully believe mentally that this approach will work).

Steve

it WILL work! one has to maintain a "positive" attitude,
and NOT allow yourself to be discouraged!. you literally
HAVE to 'fight" these negative feelings in the field,and "know"
that you are going to persevere,and be successful!.it is NOT easy sometimes,
but you've got to do it!..just sayin!..good luck!

tip: do what i do!..hunt sidewalk easements!..they are generally "small" narrow 'strips"
of grass next to the road. hunting these strips,allows me to 'focus" better,because i am hunting
a 'small" area,and i concentrate better!....just sayin'

(h.h.!)
j.t.

Tree lines you speak of are owned by the municipality and usually maintained by the adjacent landowner..Certainly
good areas to hunt but even with permission from the municipality be prepared to encounter some teed off landowners that maintain them..Some areas no problem in others your going to damage my water lines ruin the grass I maintain Yada Yada Yada....so be prepared and move on.....as hobby supposed to be fun not argumentive...
Been there done that and usually not worth the aggravation at least in my neck of the woods...

thanks j.t.

Yes, I do hunt sidewalk easements sometimes. They have not been SUPER productive for me, but I get a couple of goodies occasionally. But I totally agree -- the narrow area allows you to really focus...

Steve

yes dan! you are correct! if you encounter a 'disgruntled"
person,then just move on and find another stretch of strips!
i have had to do this too!..just sayin'

(h.h.!)
j.t.

steveg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> thanks j.t.
>
> Yes, I do hunt sidewalk easements sometimes. They
> have not been SUPER productive for me, but I get a
> couple of goodies occasionally. But I totally
> agree -- the narrow area allows you to really
> focus...
>
> Steve


they can be productive! i usually stick to the older parts
of town,so as to increase the "odds" so to speak!

(h.h.!)
j.t.