Why do so many think "Extreme Depth" is the only way to judge a machines performance????

It cracks me up when I read all the remarks implying a machine is not very good unless it will hit a silver dime at least 12".Far more good targets masked at 8" or less at a great many sites than their are at 12" in the clean areas.
Not to mention if I started digging a lot of 12" deep holes at my public sites I would be banned in short order.

Also amaizing how much folks know about this or that machine without ever using one let alone actually holding one in their hands.

Speculation can be very far from the facts in both a negative and possitive direction.

Do your homework:

For the majority of us that do not live near a beach, unsuspectingly, depth is more critical than meets the eye. On a sacred piece of property known to produce good finds in Titusville, Florida I brought several pieces of equipment in the field to prove a theory. Equipment: a 5 inch coil, an 8 inch coil, a 10.5 inch coil, and a Fisher CZ6a metal detector. With the 5-inch coil I searched a 110 feet by 95 feet area of land. It took 2 days to complete, deliberately searching the land from 3 different directions. I found only 2 coins from the early 1960's at 8.5 inches deep. Keep in mind this property did not consist of any fill-dirt nor was the ground ever disturbed by machinery - it's virgin soil. I then switched to the 8-inch coil and duplicated my previous steps exactly. The coil change gave me an additional 1.5 inches of depth. At 10 inches I recovered two more coins, both from the early 1950's. Then I put the large 10.5-inch coil on the Fisher and with identical settings on the detector I searched again. This coil gave me yet another one-inch depth increase on a dime. Guess what? I recovered 17 coins just over 11 inches deep and one quarter at 13 inches deep! The 10-inch mark exposed coins from the early 1950's. The 11-inch mark exposed coins, every single one of them, from the 1920's era. One-inch depth increase yielded coins 30 years older. Does depth matter? ! ! ! We're not finished yet! Weeks go by and somehow I damaged my detector, a fault of my own. Fisher repairs the detector and increases the sensitivity. Consequently, they also increase the stability of the unit to which I must say that I have never owned a detector with this much stability. With the 10.5-inch coil installed I, once again, searched the same 110ft by 95ft area. Certain the area was cleaned out; I soon realized my misconception. How about 14 more coins at the 12-inch mark and another quarter just over 13 inches deep, all from the 1890's era. Love is deep! ! ! And to solidify my test I reinstalled the 8-inch coil back on the detector and passed over 4 of the targets before I recovered them. With the 8-inch coil, I never even received a false chatter or any indication that a target existed. With the 10.5-inch coil, the signals were very weak but consistently repeatable. Yes, depth is "invisibly" critical. How do you know what you are missing, if you do not know that it even exists! As a coin sinks in the earth, the deeper it goes the slower it will sink because the dirt is more compacted at depth. Once again, the coin will stop sinking when it reaches the level in the soil that is compacted enough to equal the density of the coin; and that's deep! How many areas do you think you have passed over and missed good targets? I think that you would be startled if I were to tell you that the answer would be just about every time you turn on your detector. When your favorite manufacturer releases a new detector that goes a little deeper, you will have major things to look forward to.

Go over that same ground with a T2SE, Troy X5, Fisher F75, or a Deus, and you'll find even more stuff.

By the way, in most areas, such as here in Missouri, you won't get those depths.

I see silverhound is saying. We all love depth and we base machines on how deep they go (and often overlook separation, especially those newer to the hobby.) Bit there is something rewarding in hearing a faint signal and recovering a coin from around a foot. And, it is said that most coins are less than 8" deep but I question that. So, now to my next agreement...

I agree with what McGov51 is saying. I think depth is important. (But I think so is separation.) And I think the reason why most people don't find really deep coins is because they don't know how to retrieve them or the spots they hunt don't make it possible (e.g. - some parks). They are there, some in less or more numbers in certain spots. But the example mcgov51 gave is great. I too, hunt in semi to virgin grounds. I can dig deep holes but until I got an E-Trac to combat the iron mineralized soil, I rarely did. The iron is sometimes bad so I need a detector with great separation and a smaller coil but considering that the areas typically go back 500 or more years, depth is not an option (in the end).

I have a 500 year old market I discovered and have pretty much cleaned it out down to 7". The iron isn't terrible but the soil is iron mineralized. I cleaned it with an Omega and went back through many many times with my V3i and only pulled 2 more low conductors. The Omega got them all. But, now I'm going to go back through with the E-Trac once the meadow grass is cut and see what I can find. I did spend an hour there with it and didn't find anything but I was definitely getting deeper signals.

EMS

P.S. There are hundreds of good 8*' - 10" units out there that are not over-priced. I have a good 8" unit now . . . cost me $600.
Why should I pay $2k+ for what? 2 more inches? And still not get down to where I need to be.

Cracks me up too my friend.

If you are digging any hole in a place that makes you feel uncomfortable or cautious then guess what . . . you don't belong there.
You are somewhere where you have no right to be . . . correct?

If you do not know how to dig a large 12" plug then there is an excellent MD Trainning DVD available at this site.
I can dig a 12" plug in a grass lawn that is absolutely invisible when completed. In fact, I often dig larger than needed plugs because
it is easier and less chance of making a mess.

Didn't say I knew anything about the Deus. Nobody over here does? All I can say is . . . seems to?
Sounds like you have one. Please attach pic's of some of your deeep finds?

Speculation is the wrong word . . . I have only shared my personal expectaions of how I spend my money based on performance vs cost.

The facts . . . yes . . . where are the facts . . . somebody give us the facts?
Happy Hunting to ALL ( Both sides of the pond )

We argue depth all the time. It seems to be the standard at which we judge a detector. But to be honest I really don't think there has been any Earth shattering developement in the last twenty or so years. Just read Keith's CZ-6 report. Old machines still pull their fair share. Big coils will find stuff deeper. But big coils also mask targets. I dug 7 wheats yesterday and an unidentified Indian. All targets were about 4 inches. The wheats were mostly in the teens. I didn't need a depth demon to find them. In fact as I was swinging my E Trac I was thinking my AT Pro could have found everything in my pouch. Through personal experience and preference I typically swing a smaller coil. Except on the beach. The beach is on area where depth is everything. I don't think depth is everything in the dirt. Ergonomics, target ID,recovery speed, learning curve, manufacturer backing are some of the other things.

Just like when we were young. All cars were judged on speed. Comfort and fuel economy, repair costs were never thought of.

I want a machine to have the best depth that it can get for that model...Do I put it to use every day ? No...But when I need it I want to know in my mind I am giving 100% for that hunt...

But for 75% of the sites I hunt depth is not the most important BUT 'sensitivity' is....Separation .exact disc setting ability...freq... and tonal quality( Ability to interpret good target's from spit's pop's and sputter's) is far more important ..yet I still like to have a machine that airtest well...a machine that airtest well is usually more sensitive and sensitivity is what you need even when depth is not an issue but low conductor's are...High freq machine's airtest well because of the higher gain and a good airtest depth let's me know that say this tejon is a little hotter on brass than say another Tejon...They wont go no where near that in the ground but in my mind I know it's a little more sensitive and gives me the peace of mind I am going to maybe hit on a smaller button or thin silver on edge even at just say 4 inches deep......It's just one of thre simplest forms of checking a machine for performance.

Some sites I hunt though if you dont have a deep as YOU can go in ground with detector you will suffer....isolated find's in open wood's at depth ..Civil war relic's can get quite deep and they are very hard to hear once the get past 11-12 inch's..Deepest I have ever dug them was in the right dirt at the 17-18 inch mark.( excluding large item's like bigger than buckle's)..barely a whisper on a all metal machine...Discrimination depth will usually play out at around a foot...unless the target is large...But a high freq machine does not get down there usually ..I opt for lower freq's for that..and low freq's will not airtest like a high freq for the most part but they get in the ground deeper on higher conductor's...But I like to have a low freq that airtest very well in that model when comparing it to the same model...

So in a nut shell I think a deep testing machine gives you the user the peace of mind to know at least through a simple test that hopefully one part of the machine is functioning properly...


If I am in a detector shop and I pick up a model (say tejon) I want and it hit's a nickle on 14 inches and I grab another of the same model and it does 10 with all being equal....Well I know which one I want for me personally...I know how the disc work's so the airtest is surely going to be the deciding factor..

Might be backwards thinking on my part who's know's....I know a kid always goes for the biggest piece of cake with lot's of frosting maybe I look at it with an immature viewpoint ?..( I like a big piece of corner cake too though when nobody's looking LOL!!!)

Just my opinion .

And I will accept any machine for what it can do whatever that maybe but i still want that machine to airtest the best I can get for that model ..
Keith



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2012 05:01PM by Keith Southern.

Great thread and many good points made. Personally I would rather have a machine than is better in iron and unmasking. Most of my finds are under 6". I live in a area with a lot of clay, stuff just doesnt sink that far.
Case in point, last night I found a US Eagle staff button circa 1849-1865 at only 4", a 05' Indian Pennie at the same depth and this was just black dirt, well traveled on, I know it's crazy. Last month I found a 1902 barber quarter at 5" in a lot of clay. I've found 2 more barbers in the same area under 4".

Yes depth is important sure, especially at a beach. However as time gos on especially in the parks a lot of the good stuff that remains to be found will continue that way because of one little rusty nail or ect.

On a side note....I would like to state that I really hope the Deus is all that those who HAVE one say it is. I want it to succeed, I want it to motivate the other companys to take technology to the next level if...it's possible.

What I cannot tolerate is those who don't even have one making blanket statements on Finds about how it's already head and shoulders above the compitition, and this person doesn't even have one yet.

I've said it before and I will continue to say it. If you want to honestly compare machines the ONLY way to do it is go to a OLD area that has potential for good targets ALONG with iron.
Get 4 stakes, string, tape measure, pen/notebook, something to mark the turf where each machine found targets, note what each target was, how it sounded.

Each machine starts w a 5" coil, then go up to 10". You do this with each machine before going to the next one. After both or machines have been tested dig the targets, compare with your records. You will be very surprised even alittle depressed at the results.
Oh yes this is really tedious not to mention trouble, however it really is the ONLY way of truly telling/saying how different machines react to the same targets.....anything else is just plain speculation!

I agree with most of what all three of you have said.

But understand, I have a specific need in conditions that tell me that I need 12" or go home.

Now, this Deu$ shows up without any real data to gauge its value at a price level that has
gotten everyone's attention involved with this hobby and I question its abilities to meet my needs.
Hey if it suits your needs . . . go for it.

I'm not interested in smearing or tarnishing any brand.

Just put the unit on the table and outside in the garden . . . in expert hands . . . and let it be
scientifically verified. It may be the next new generation GPX ???

I / you in the U.S. have to earn approx. $2,500 in order to get your hands on $2,000 and that is
a good enough chunk of money to spend wisely . . . don't you think?

Now considering some facts. . .

No one knows me?
What my $pendable income is?
How much knowledge I have of the hobby?
Where I hunt?
What my exact hunting conditions are?
What equip. I already use?
How many hours I spend in the field every week?
Why depth is important to my particular situation?
What my goals are . . . and how they are justified by me?

So in Abridged Terms

Don't imply to know better than me . . . what I need and don't need.

I have a right to expect what I think is a good value to me that meets my goals . . . for the money I spend.

Get over it.

mcgov51 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now, this Deu$ shows up without any real data to
> gauge its value at a price level that has
> gotten everyone's attention involved with this
> hobby and I question its abilities to meet my
> needs.
> Hey if it suits your needs . . . go for it.

> I'm not interested in smearing or tarnishing any
> brand.
>
> Just put the unit on the table and outside in the
> garden . . . in expert hands . . . and let it be
>
> scientifically verified. It may be the next new
> generation GPX ???

> I have a right to expect what I think is a good
> value to me that meets my goals . . . for the
> money I spend.
>
> Get over it.

Well it seems that you are already so determent to not like the Deus, so why are you still hanging around and talk bull about it, when you dont even own it or ever plan to own it. Why not let others enjoy their expensive Deus detectors and you can enjoy your detectors that work for you and we can all be happy this way, because we all have different detector need you know.

There are two tools that consistently successful hunters must have...and you can't really buy either one of them.

1. New sites.
2. Ability to "read" a site.

A good metal detector is only part of the equation. Just owning the "best" hammer and saw that money can buy, wont build a house for you.

Good research and knowledge is priceless. Far too many people only have a single site or two to hunt, and thus they go through every machine on the market hoping it will magically refill the site for them. It took me a long time and many hundreds of dollars to realize that. Sure, you can play around with different machines and go back to the same sites and maybe find a coin or relic or two. But by far the most consistently successful guys AREN'T going back to the same old spots on every detecting trip.

You can spend a lot of wasted time on a really good new site, and not find a lot. That is where site reading comes in to play. There are tricks and such that you learn along the way...some may be written in books and such to help you learn faster but many of us learned the old fashioned way. For example, Civil War camps were set up certain ways via certain conditions. Being able to hunt at a 600+ acre site, gets you excited, but you have to realize that on that 600 acres, there will only be a spot or two with real concentration of troops and therefore relics. After hunting several camps over the years, I have gotten pretty decent at being able to eliminate a lot of ground. Sure, I might miss some things...may even be the find of the year that's off some place away from the main camp...but by far the greatest concentration of things will be in certain spots on the land. Being able to spot old home sites that are no longer standing, is another example of site reading. Spotting the ferns or tulip flowers growing in a field or in the woods that ...almost always signify a potential home site location. There are a lot of tricks for site reading...all of them had to be learned.

A third one you could throw in the mix...is the ability to talk to people and get permission. Even the best research is useless if you have a phobia of talking to people and asking permission. I know several guys locally that I have to be the one ask permission to everywhere we go. They are just too shy to ask...and if you ever saw them in action attempting to ask permission, it's a disaster. Thus why I just go and do it myself and make them sit in the truck. LOL...they are just uncomfortable talking to strangers and their body language and inability to speak to people without tripping over their words, makes landowners VERY uneasy around them. I ain't ever been afraid to ask permission to somewhere. All they can do is say no or shoot you :-)

Look at all of the 'passion' !!!

Order of importance to a detector manufacturer:

1) Mineralization handling abilities
2) Unmasking
3) Depth


((( In Florida ..... depth is critical. And folks like Keith.... of whom finds CW bullets at 17" & 18"...are well aware that other good targets are ALSO at that depth..... and even deeper,,,,,, well beyond the detection of current technology. These are only 150 year-old CW implements. What about the 200 - 300 year-old Colonial ...... or 400 - 500 year-old Spanish implements. What depth do you think THESE items are at? ))).

I remember detecting in a Florida park and was surprised to find clad Dimes at 6". Somehow the coins sink over there.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Look at all of the 'passion' !!!
>
> Order of importance to a detector manufacturer:
>
> 1) Mineralization handling abilities
> 2) Unmasking
> 3) Depth
>
>
> ((( In Florida ..... depth is critical. And folks
> like Keith.... of whom finds CW bullets at 17" &
> 18"...are well aware that other good targets are
> ALSO at that depth..... and even deeper,,,,,, well
> beyond the detection of current technology. These
> are only 150 year-old CW implements. What about
> the 200 - 300 year-old Colonial ...... or 400 -
> 500 year-old Spanish implements. What depth do you
> think THESE items are at? ))).

If I could get a detector to I.D. and punch to 20 inches I would have no need to take an ear bashing in iron infested house site's...

I would perfectly content to dig the abundance or relics that lie just out of reach of current tecnolgy...

Tom is right the dirt He is in hold's artifact's and an unreal depth ...I have had a buddy of mine who hunt's some of the South Carolina Coastal area's tell me that he has been down in bored shafts for construction and found artifact's like minnie balls, button's, pottery, etc and such in the side's of the shaft's at 5 ft In situ.......

I live in N.Ga and relics here are also at quite deep depth's even with the clay layer in lot's of area's...The Atlanta Metro Area here had hundred's of miles of trenchline's that were filled in soon after the war...I always imagine whats lying 3 foot deep under my feet just about anywhere in my county...The whole area was a battlefield...the old road bed's deep in the forgooten woods were all the mile's and mile's of supply trains were backed up during torential rain downpours for over a week are full of deeply burried pushed in the ground artifact's.....

With real depth these artifact's could come back to light of day!!!!!

The 17-18 inch target's I talk of digging are sporadic and not done on a daily bases..But it's because of depth not because there not there...There's layers and layer's of artifact's..I have dug down a couple of feet before in seemimgly undisturbed dirt and went through different layer's of dirt only to come back to artifact rich top black loamy soil...

Keith

Depth with accuracy is becoming more of a big deal in my neck of the woods (Idaho). That's why the Trac reigns supreme for coinhunting out here. Even though I own the Omega.

mcgov51 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do your homework:
>
> For the majority of us that do not live near a
> beach, unsuspectingly, depth is more critical than
> meets the eye. On a sacred piece of property known
> to produce good finds in Titusville, Florida I
> brought several pieces of equipment in the field
> to prove a theory. Equipment: a 5 inch coil, an 8
> inch coil, a 10.5 inch coil, and a Fisher CZ6a
> metal detector. With the 5-inch coil I searched a
> 110 feet by 95 feet area of land. It took 2 days
> to complete, deliberately searching the land from
> 3 different directions. I found only 2 coins from
> the early 1960's at 8.5 inches deep. Keep in mind
> this property did not consist of any fill-dirt nor
> was the ground ever disturbed by machinery - it's
> virgin soil. I then switched to the 8-inch coil
> and duplicated my previous steps exactly. The coil
> change gave me an additional 1.5 inches of depth.
> At 10 inches I recovered two more coins, both from
> the early 1950's. Then I put the large 10.5-inch
> coil on the Fisher and with identical settings on
> the detector I searched again. This coil gave me
> yet another one-inch depth increase on a dime.
> Guess what? I recovered 17 coins just over 11
> inches deep and one quarter at 13 inches deep! The
> 10-inch mark exposed coins from the early 1950's.
> The 11-inch mark exposed coins, every single one
> of them, from the 1920's era. One-inch depth
> increase yielded coins 30 years older. Does depth
> matter? ! ! ! We're not finished yet! Weeks go by
> and somehow I damaged my detector, a fault of my
> own. Fisher repairs the detector and increases the
> sensitivity. Consequently, they also increase the
> stability of the unit to which I must say that I
> have never owned a detector with this much
> stability. With the 10.5-inch coil installed I,
> once again, searched the same 110ft by 95ft area.
> Certain the area was cleaned out; I soon realized
> my misconception. How about 14 more coins at the
> 12-inch mark and another quarter just over 13
> inches deep, all from the 1890's era. Love is
> deep! ! ! And to solidify my test I reinstalled
> the 8-inch coil back on the detector and passed
> over 4 of the targets before I recovered them.
> With the 8-inch coil, I never even received a
> false chatter or any indication that a target
> existed. With the 10.5-inch coil, the signals were
> very weak but consistently repeatable. Yes, depth
> is "invisibly" critical. How do you know what you
> are missing, if you do not know that it even
> exists! As a coin sinks in the earth, the deeper
> it goes the slower it will sink because the dirt
> is more compacted at depth. Once again, the coin
> will stop sinking when it reaches the level in the
> soil that is compacted enough to equal the density
> of the coin; and that's deep! How many areas do
> you think you have passed over and missed good
> targets? I think that you would be startled if I
> were to tell you that the answer would be just
> about every time you turn on your detector. When
> your favorite manufacturer releases a new detector
> that goes a little deeper, you will have major
> things to look forward to.

Just out of curiosity, you say it took you two days to complete your first search with the 5" coil, how many hours each day?