XP GOLD MAXX POWER (GMP) - Field Test

No rush on the coil Tom. I am now into one of my other hobbies for a while......

Tom in SC

Tom............. coil is back in the mail system. U.S.P.S. Priority mail.

Tom, the coil arrived safe today.

Tom in SC

Thanks for letting me know.

It has occured to me.... the 'way' the GMP handles mineralization (especially magnetic/ferric/magnetite/hematite/iron dirt) is also tied to "how" and "why" the unit poses a few defiant principles of physics with its ability of unmasking non-ferrous targets in carpets of (actual solid iron.... not trace-element mineralization) nails. Other detectors merely compensate for mineralization via ground balance circuitry (ground phase-shift angle)...... yet do not (and can not) 'unmask' non-ferrous targets in carpets of nails.

This past Thursday......... I detected mineralized dirt whereby a F75 & CZ could only properly ID a dime to approx 6" depth. The GMP would correctly ID the dime to 8". The GMP was virtually unaffected by this 'medium level' mineralization.
Worthy of mention, documenting and further technological advancement.

NasaTom, eveytime you or others mention the XP GMP, can I assume that my XP Deus shares these same characteristics?? In other words....are these two units very much alike in their ACTUAL makeup??? The ID Screen of the Deus not-with-standing. As I often don't use it.

I know you asked Tom and He will reply but if I may aslo respond ...

The GMP is BUILT on 18kHz...the DEUS is not....

You will see slight advantages with the GMP over the DEUS even when you have the DEUS on the 18kHz...

One advantage is it's a little more powerful....another is it's tuned dead to 18Khz and the ground balance system shows this...It does not wrap high conductor's into iron like the DEUS when DEUS is on 18kHz...

also the GMP is a little noiser to run in iron...more power more noise. on this platform it's sparky in iron...

Just my take on it from having both...

Keith



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2013 03:46AM by Keith Southern.

Hey Keith, your thoughts on the Gold when compared to the GMP?

When boost is used I see more power...Really!

In iron unmasking the Gold is eerily close to the GMP...Some machines like the AT-PRO with small BT Elliptical coil can do ALOT to see target's in iron that the 9 inch GMP easily see's...yet the 11" GOLD sees thing's like the GMP does..again eerily close in performance...

Yet I think the Gold MAY be a hair faster and that says alot... and offer more audio nuance...

The GMP is a great machine for sure...Built like a tank...Good clean styling and finish work...World class unmasking in small iron...

Yet the GOLD is built like a tank also but less styling yet more user control position oriented...World class unmasking in small iron AND it is doing something in larger iron Vs small non-ferrous I have yet to experience in other designs in the field finds wise...Could be the Ultra nice elliptical coil stepping up the game in that perspective, depth and separation at the same time is AWSOME..That coil is really,really,really tight !!

They are hair splitting for me personally...yet for some reason I really like the audio on the GOLD...feels more old school with modern option's if it makes sense...

Keith

Keith

Yes Tom these Euro machine's ground balance differently...

They are not quite as advanced as the American machine's in the ground balance system like tracking and such...yet the ground bal they use is very effective in seeing through mineral...

I believe on Gary's U.K. site He states the Vista GOLD is the best unit he has ever tested through mineralized black sand...I know what i see in my red Clay..

I beleive the XP's and VISTA are using the same Ground Bal technology...Instead of trying to remove it so much it actually just sees it and distinguish's with audio...I hear hot rocks ground mineral at yet hear target quite deep in the mineral sound's....But if a machine balances that mineral out conventionally then it also chances removing the target in the mineral...

That's why on these platforms (Euro's) it is good to not run the Ground bal too high...it will kill your depth quickly if you become to aggresive against the dirt...iron unmasking occurs better also with a slightly less ground bal...

good observation..

Keith



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2013 09:19PM by Keith Southern.

From a scientific standpoint........ it (almost certainly) looks like the Deus is a 'general'........ whereby the GMP is a 'specific'. This is to say......... the GMP is explicitly/specifically designed around 18-Khz. The Deus is 'above average' at any/all freq's; yet, not 'specific' (master) with any one of it's available freq's. Just my in-field 'gut'..... and experience.............. (later to be validated).
I did perform extensive head-to-head comparison between the two....... and the GMP had a slight advantage over the Deus (maybe just a few percent) ..... on many, many real-world/in-ground tests. This is to include deep silver. Even the Deus performed better on 18Khz with deep silver..... to include over the 4Khz freq selection/option. My biggest contender with the Deus (which would invalidate/disqualify base-reference reliability/accuracy)..... and was a large concern of mine........ was Deus Grnd Balance set-point(s). It was quite laborious to 'span' the Ground Balance on each/every target and scenario. The end resultant was a solid/confident scientific answer/resolution acquisition....... (at one heck of a "time" cost).
Now.......... if only the GMP had a 'boost' mode!

"Laborious" is what the user interface of the Deus felt like in general to me.

HH
Johnb

Wow, NASA-Tom and Keith...this is fascinating stuff. NASA-Tom, you alluded to this "physics-defying" thing in other posts; I'm finding it fascinating to hear your thoughts as they come to you over time, regarding what is going on here (with "ground balance technology" apparently being suspected as being a major factor in the surprising unmasking ability), and Keith your additions/observations are superb. I am finding this discussion MOST stimulating, and educational...

Steve

johnb......... there is a lot to be said about K.I.S.S. theory (Keep It Simple Stupid). On one end of the scale........ you have detectors like the GMP, X-5 & CZ. They are analog....... and have only a few knobs (controls). They present maximum performance (by today's standards) with the most simplistic user-interface. Extremely little needs to be done (by the user) in order to ascertain maximum performance.
On the other end of the scale........ you have the Explorer series, V3i, GTI-2500's whereby they present pages upon pages, upon pages of menu's, menu's, menu's (to include sub-menu's) that may require the user/operator to have substantial (time-consuming) intervention/input....... in order to achieve/ascertain maximum performance. (((Yes, I understand 'personalized' customization))). Yet, the operator may be left with the gut feeling on these complex units...... that....... "are all of my settings correct/proper/maximized?" CONFIDENCE factor is subliminally more important than meets-the-eye.
Then you add complexities such as: Most detectorists are (in general) older folks.... that are not computer/techno wizards.

K.I.S.S. the polite version of "idiotproof".

We sell and service outdoor powerproducts and the major brands are spending a lot of time and effort into producing "idiotproof" products.
Most users aren't idiots, but simply untrained/unexperienced/non-manual people. Aren't we all to a certain extent,...
The dealers receive technical and of course marketing training,... a trained dealer equals a happy customer and more $ for the brand.

Same with an educated/trained user, in the longrun it equals more $ for the brand.
More $ for the brand isn't always purely capitalism, long time brands have longterm views and are able to invest in R&D during economic recess.

Anyway products that are overly complex to operate do not instill confidence in the user.
Few users reach the point where they are experienced enough to know when every adjustment will work to their benefit.

Bla, bla, bla,.... anyone still reading??

Anyhow the Deus programming remote needed a clutch, gearshifter and gaspedal. All metal/pinpoint on-off, Sens adjust, Groundbalance adjust/Discriminate adjust

Fisher/Minelab/Vista/Whites/Tesoro do it nicely,... but then I guess I'm a bit contrary.

Hey Tom ...

A boost mode on a GMP would be AWESOME for sure...


That's a great option to have on machines nowdays...

When more power is warranted its just a switch flip away....

One of the most fascinating thing's I have seen on the Vista GOLD when boosted is how more correctly the DEEP items are I.D.d tone wise...

alot of the high Freq machines like to call deeper iron target's as good signals especially when pinestraw and such are in the way.......

I can get a sweet sounding faint high hit on the GOLD and flip boost on and the target will either become a stronger sounding high hit or more often it will become a strong low grunt...

The boosted high tones have lied to me a few times but it was lieing to me before I boosted also. digging a foot down to retrieve a vertical nail. but as of yet the high tones that turn low tone when boost is used have come back 100% as deep iron usually really deep past 10" nails....if it says iron in boost on an isolated target so far it's iron...That's an astounding feature to have..

the Boost is way more than an audio boost as I originally thought it might be...

it really does pump up all the parameter's...It is an amazing feature to have for sure...And to see it actually in action in the field is worth a 1000 words of describing...

Keith

Keith,

The boost process on the T2/F75 works in the same fashion. It is not just simply a 'volume' audio boost. (((It's actually (mostly) achieved with advanced timing additional snap-shot cktry))).
--- But....... what is impressing me..... is YOUR red-clay Georgia "depth" results (Vista Gold) that you are ascertaining....... esp considering high-freq. (((This should be a handicap))). i JUST experienced this with the GMP..... in text-book full-length.... long duration exposure.... scientifically validated fashion. Completely different way of looking at dirt........ (as compared to entire metal detection past history).

Keith, ..... When you can find a Half Dime at 10" in YOUR handicap dirt......... we'll know for certain that technology has 'shifted'. (Read = advanced).

deleted



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2013 02:20AM by Keith Southern.

Tom ...

It almost seems like to me the target tone...Low/High is somehow tied into the ground balance....If that makes sense.....

I can actually ground bal the machine with the dual tones.....too low and it's high toning the ground...Too high and it's low toning the ground...once it's set right on a no tone report it becomes exceptionally deep.....

the deepest of target's almost seem to sway the tone from low to high through the ground reading...If I am making sense....

I have had this on my mind know for awhile but have just now discussed it...

I may be way off base but something tells me that maybe once out of the disc range depth,,, the extra depth I have obtained on some items seems to be linked into the ground report somehow..The machine seems to go deeper in the dirt than it airtest,,,and also the tones sound better'tighter in the dirt than they do on airtest....

I hear lots of hot rocks now on this machine they sound strong and high but they have the double wah-----wah high tone sound...so I can easily by pass them...

let me know if I am making any sense to you...
I want to be on the same page even if it's the wrong page..LOL!!!

Keith

I will usually fiddle with ground balance and sens several times before I'm happy with it.
What I'm trying to do is get the machine to a point where the interaction between ground balance and sens just starts low conductor falsing in a 0 disc/all metal setting.
I finally back off the sens just slightly until I'm not hearing it and then set Disc to the desired setting.

This usually results in a fairly quiet machine with some high tone iron wrap around.
AND DEEP.

Any machine with ground balance tracking switched on will alter your ground balance setting now and again. And you won't be able to run the sens as high as with a fixed GB setting.
And not hear those faint deep targets.

As a coin shooter neither the GMP or the Vista has enough disc/notch range.
I tend to look at them as prospecting machines with large coils, just ignoring the ground effects and reporting anything with a decent non-ferrous content.

Keith,
If you have bad mineralization.......... and a silver dime drops down into a 'iron' ID at....... say...... 6" depth........... it is the phase-shift (angle) of the mineralization/dirt feedback that is causing the bad ID. Now........... IF the ground balance adjustment can help mitigate (some/most/all) the dirt/mineralization phase shift delta/differential....... and be somewhat 'removed' from the equation (that being: bad dirt ID ... plus ... the ID of the dime)........ then........... the dime stands a better chance of improved ID.
If a detector seems to 'chatter' a bit... whilst sweeping the coil.... due to 'dirt mineralization feedback'..... ....... .......... all of these mild 'falses'...is masking the mild signal strength (or weaker) returns from the deeper targets. Said a little differently.... and with utilization of numbers: If your detector is encountering about (say) 3db of mild ground/mineralization 'noise'............................. and any coin-sized target that is 7" (or deeper) gives a signal strength return of 3db (or less)........................... than.......................... your 'effective' ID depth is "up to... and including 7" of depth". You can not 'see' deeper than 7" of depth due to the background chatter/noise that is overriding/masking the more faint // deeper targets.
To be able to utilize (conductive) ground mineralization to our advantage..... has been something that has been on the mind(s) of Chief DE's for a few decades......... but........... gives the 'appearance' of asking for a paradoxical improbability (read = impossibility). This is like asking to defy gravity. Well........... we did indeed do it. We used the 'sling-shot' effect (use gravity to our advantage.... via centrifugal force).... to launch rockets to the moon,,,,,,,,,,,,...............,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, a (otherwise) impossible feat. It can be done. What was once 'impossible'..... is know easy and 'obvious'. BUT.......... if: "You don't know...what you don't know"........ it continues to appear/look 'impossible'.

johnb = I find the 'old coins' hunting ability of the GMP to be tremendous. However.......yes; I must agree that it is specifically intended for relic hunting in carpets of nails.... and in fairly bad dirt .... seeking to eek out any non-ferrous target(s) in masked scenarios. And......... as this proverbial door/window is 'opened' ........ it will surely revolutionize our thought-process as to 'where' and 'how' we hunt.............. and (unsuspectingly) bring us to the epiphany of: In carpets of nails ... is where most of it is at!

Fully agree on the GMP catching those old coins in between the nails.
If it were just nails and coins you could probably live with it.
The 18 kHz crams together the high conductors in the discrimination band.
So in my WWII bunkers every piece of copper and lead shrapnel would certainly be situated in the finds pouch.

A unit with a variabel notch setting is needed to turn the hunt into a fun experience.
Deus is just the ticket I thought. So one arrived at my doorstep.
But in these carpets of nails and shrapnel and shell casings the coil was just too big.
Indeed with the fenomenal seperation of the XP coils, there were simply too much targets under the coil at once.

I turned to the 5" 18 kHz coil of an X-terra 705 and haven't been happier since.
Using prospecting mode it let me slowly sweep the site, if it hits a non-ferous target I just move the coil 5" sideways.
Turn on disc mode and sweep it the width of the coil over the target.
If the ID bounces into the non-notched coin IDs I dig.

My last few visits I haven't dug a target that wasn't co-located with iron or trash.

This form of detecting isn't for everyone and I can only stand it so long.
But it is a coin hunters dream, once you indeed learn to appreciate those carpets of nails, trash, etc..

The fascination of trash infested sites was instilled when I watched someones "Inland relic hunting DVD"
I use to avoid them, now I firmly convinced I was avoiding the best detecting opportunities out there.

Would really like to give the 5" CZ coil a try.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2013 09:31PM by scoopjohnb.

Thanks Tom for the detailed report...

I still think the Vistas/GMP's are looking at the ground in a different manner ...Possibly filter wise...For lack of better word's...

Wish I could explain what I am trying to say better...I will study what I think is going on in my head on the euro's ground bal..

thanks

Keith

Keith....... the Grnd Bal cktry on the GMP/Deus appears to deviate from the traditional 'norm' of what we know as "ground balance". I have not reverse-engineered to find out; but it certainly appears that rotating the "Ground" pot has very little to do with compensating for phase-angle shift..... caused by mineralization; but/rather....... more of a 'dirt generated EMI' mitigation.

Excellent response Tom...

I think we have got on the same page...WHEW!

I was struggling to find words to describe the thought's in my head...

But thats pretty dang close to what's happening...very UNCONVENTIONAL..

I wonder if they stumbled into it TRYING to build a G.B. circuit or if it's purposely engineered...

I would think purposely...

Thank's

Keith

Quoting myself because I've come to a few simple conclusions/questions in search of the best unmasking discriminating TID out there at the moment.

Complex target signal comprises of iron, pulltab, foil, coin, lead shrapnell and copper grenade fragment co-located so that from every sweep angle there is always
a coin and 2 pieces of "trash" in the field of detection.

Minelab X-terra 705 with 6" coil will provide a very mixed up signal in multi-tone feature all-metal.
4-tone it will signal the largest signal under that coil for that specific sweep, often the high conductors because they have got more mass to their benefit.
With a fully closed disc window, you can notch in the target you want, be it iron, foil, pulltab or coin.
Detector will signal a strangled audio beep for your selected target.

Minelab CTX3030 with 6" coil again a very mixed up signal in combined tone, often producing the loudest tone for the most predominant target in the mix.
Add in a few carefully placed discrimination points in the pattern, then you can start pulling out the specific target you desire from the mix.
Again with a strangled audio.
Adjust the tone breaks to your liking and further enhance the desired signal.

XP Deus 4-tone disc pattern running at 12 kHz, 9" coil
Again audio is a mix of tones often the most significant target in the mix shines out above the rest.
Carefully applying a few points of notch setting in each tone-band, with the notch located at the mean TID for that target on its own,... starts to provide an
audio discrimination which pulls out the desired target in the mix.

XP GMP 3-tone results in a dig-all situation "relic machine", 9" coil

CZ-3D results in a high tone, dig all situation, 8" coil

Now, how about the F75 with the small 5" coil????

What am I getting at??
I'm trying to promote those faint foil type signals in between trash to improve my jewelry versus clad count at the end of the day.
Am I wanting the impossible??

With regards to the GMP/XP Deus I now think of them as simultanious analysis multi-tone units.
Deus with a horrible user interface and hopefully in the near future some decent ears, very nice programmable disc pattern.
GMP needing highly skilled operator to provide any decent discrimination possibilities. But with a fast intuitive user interface.
XP needs to cross-breed these 2 units.

So which is the best unmasking discriminating tool out there,..... knowledge and a digger.

scoopjohnb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fully agree on the GMP catching those old coins in
> between the nails.
> If it were just nails and coins you could probably
> live with it.
> The 18 kHz crams together the high conductors in
> the discrimination band.
> So in my WWII bunkers every piece of copper and
> lead shrapnel would certainly be situated in the
> finds pouch.
>
> A unit with a variabel notch setting is needed to
> turn the hunt into a fun experience.
> Deus is just the ticket I thought. So one arrived
> at my doorstep.
> But in these carpets of nails and shrapnel and
> shell casings the coil was just too big.
> Indeed with the fenomenal seperation of the XP
> coils, there were simply too much targets under
> the coil at once.
>
> I turned to the 5" 18 kHz coil of an X-terra 705
> and haven't been happier since.
> Using prospecting mode it let me slowly sweep the
> site, if it hits a non-ferous target I just move
> the coil 5" sideways.
> Turn on disc mode and sweep it the width of the
> coil over the target.
> If the ID bounces into the non-notched coin IDs I
> dig.
>
> My last few visits I haven't dug a target that
> wasn't co-located with iron or trash.
>
> This form of detecting isn't for everyone and I
> can only stand it so long.
> But it is a coin hunters dream, once you indeed
> learn to appreciate those carpets of nails, trash,
> etc..
>
> The fascination of trash infested sites was
> instilled when I watched someones "Inland relic
> hunting DVD"
> I use to avoid them, now I firmly convinced I was
> avoiding the best detecting opportunities out
> there.
>
> Would really like to give the 5" CZ coil a try.

HH
Johnb

I wish Fisher would come out with something that we can all talk about something that they designed for the future of detecting seeing how smart of lot of you are on this forum. You would hope they got hold of a few of the detectors you are writing about and seeing how they can improve them and take them to the next level. Since I can't detect, I read this forum each day just trying to keep up with all that is being written.

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

Bump!

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tom......... agree. It does pinpoint very well;
> yet, that is normal 'expectations'.
> I was hoping to find a real-world 'niche' for this
> coil...... but have not found it.

Here's an idea.

I've got an elliptical coil on my X-terra that handles like it is a hydrib between DD and concentric.
Pure DD slams a steel bottlecap into the high tones.
A pure concentric slams it into the low tones, low conductors.

It has a neat trick up it's sleeve when searching WWI fields that have been heavily hit by shell fire. Some unexploded shells still remain to this day.
An exploded shell consists of the lead shrapnels, copper shell guide ring, steel outer shell fragmets, copper igniter.

Because these steel outer shell fragments act a lot like a bottlecap, ...you set the coil on it, do the minelab wiggle and get the iron grunt.
At least a lot less iron needing to be dug, keeping the fun in it.

Maybe that is why Xp designed a concentric for the GMP 18 kHz.

Anyway, you don't see a lot of people hunting the actual WWI battlefields, too much trash needing to be dug.
One guy I know actually dug 150 something holes for 1 coin,... not much fun in that.
The pure DD coil owners just don't venture into battle.

My X-terra with the 10x5" HF "DD" just loves it.
Same with the CZ-3D, digging low tones.

Maybe a concentric small GMP elliptical coil would love it as well.

HH
Johnb

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> After 3 days of extensive testing of this 4-1/4" x
> 9-1/4" coil........... I do believe it is of DD
> config.
> The first encounter with this coil is.........
> nearly all decomposed/heavily rusted iron acted
> like hot rocks. A large amount of 'Ground'
> adjustment was required........ or the rusted iron
> would constantly 'high-tone'. ((( Heavy
> signature/characteristic of elliptical DD coils
> ))). Then........ rusted iron was much more
> identifiable........ but at a cost of a bit of
> depth. Real-world performance dictates that I
> could only ascertain about 4-1/2" on a dime.
> BUT.......... adjacent target separation
> characteristics of this coil is about 8% - 10%
> greater than the standard/stock 9" coil. This is a
> paradox......... as ......... the 9" DD coil is
> substantially greater in size (than 10%) ....
> over this small elliptical DD coil.
> Also......... not making (physics) sense
> is.......... this small elliptical DD coil will
> detect a clad dime in my test-garden...... to
> nearly 10". But not in the real-world.
> Normally......... I would not feel authorized to
> speak/report this resultant; yet, I have tested
> this small coil in numerous locations...... to
> include different towns............ giving a
> overall/aggregate compilation/resultant. Doesn't
> make sense.... especially when mineralization is
> nearly identical.
>
> Now.......... to add approx 8% - 10% additional
> enhanced adjacent target separation......... is a
> tremendous attribute; however, here in Florida (a
> soft sandbar).......... old targets are much
> greater in depth than the limited 4-1/2" it will
> ascertain on dime-sized targets.
>
> Another paradox (looking from a different
> perspective) is the fact the large stock 9" DD
> coil provides nearly the same extremely enhanced
> adjacent target separation characteristics as this
> small elliptical DD coil. . . . . (only about a 8%
> - 10% difference) . . . . . considering the 9" DD
> coil is over 100% greater in .... even just
> surface area. The electronics are performing some
> very special tasks/functions......... providing
> this performance delineiation paradox.
>
> I will try to report much more on this...... in
> the near future.

Tom,

Are you saying that the 5x10 coil for the GMP isn't really worth getting one over the 9" coil, even though it has somewhat better separation, but has only about 4 1/2" depth on a clad dime? The reason I ask, I have located one in the UK and hope to get him to ship to the US.

Ron