is a pi machine worth the trouble?

ive been considering a pi machine to deal with sanded in conditions and wonder if its worth the trouble? a few specific questions......
1. will i be digging so many junk targets that it will slow me down and allow all my excal and cz20 competitors to beat me to all the good finds?
2. are pi machines really that much deeper than an excal or cz20 with a large coil?
3. are pi machines in general slow or fast sweep machines?
4. pi machines claim to have some form of disc, do they really have a form of disc and how does it work?
5. are pi machines more or less capable of finding gold micro jewelry and fine chains?
6. what are the strengths and weaknesses of each of the following machines....
garrett infinium, whites tdi, whites tdi sl, detectorpro headhunter, tessoro sandshark.
thanks, chuck.

On some saltwater shores they are the only thing that will work relative PI units and will pick up micro jewelry most units won't peep on and get super depth in most cases..

Hopefully you will get some good info from experienced users on the rest of your question....

Seeker

It all comes down to time.
Time is valuable and time is one thing u never get back.
Your 1st question.
.
Now like Dan said....some beaches u have to use a PI........so u would have to find out...what do most of the hunters use where u are..?
.
Here in my zone...lots of small iron tickets....17 water hunters......2 use PI,s.....2 or 3 use cz,s.....excals for the rest
Good luck

.
.
<")))))<>(

I think it just comes down to needing a good sand machine, water machine, and a PI. There are times during the year i wished i had a PI just because there isnt anything out there. BUT.... when the cuts are deep at first EVERYTHING is in the ditch and like Max said it takes time. DewGuru uses a PI.... i use an Xcal we both have the same amount of gold rings this year. So.... location, trash, and time really make a difference in what you use when.

Dew

If you can find a PI whereby the depth difference is large enough to offset the amount of iron that will be dug.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you can find a PI whereby the depth difference
> is large enough to offset the amount of iron that
> will be dug.

ok.....is there one? when you have time can you answer the rest of my questions?
thanks, chuck.

I have been using a F75SE since it came and the F75 before that. Tom, would the PI give me better separation or view of targets that are masked by a fierce ground matrix of urban use since the civil war? The area is urban home sites from the 1880s that was previously used as a Yankee campsite. I am running the F75SE 0 DISC, 15-35 SENS, and 4T. Anything higher and I can't handle the amount of noise. Higher DISC does not help me to unmask the targets. I have dug everything from a BB to a US Puppy Paw.

Any Advice Appreciated
HH
Fred

The F75 will provide substantially better performance in trashy areas over a PI. The PI would be better suited for open fields where targets are few..... and mineralization is bad.

Chuck............. what you are looking for is............. having the ability to hunt behind other detectorists (Cocoa Beach is pounded hard) with better success. This comes in two forms. 1) Better sensitivity to smaller targets. 2) Better depth.

If a PI is 15% deeper........... and 15% more sensitive to smaller targets (than the Minelab Excal/CZ-20),,,,,,,,,,,,,,, BUT,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, you recover thousands-of-percent MORE iron with the PI (vs the Excal) .................... there needs to come a 'efficiency' balance. You hardly EVER recover iron with a CZ/Excal........... maybe 2 iron items per hunt. With a PI........... you may recover 200 iron items ............... and 15% more of deeper/smaller non-ferrous items. What is your endurance. What can your body handle. What can your 'mindset' handle.

I seem to find the 40% differential mark to be my yes/no threshold ....... as to using a all-metal PI vs a unit that can differentiate between ferrous and non-ferrous. The White's TDI (when set up properly) is very close to 'justification'. The no-longer-available AquaStar easily exceeds this 40% mark............... and quantifies/justifies usage. Finding small fish hooks at a foot can be tiring.

Out of time again!!!

Tom, thanks for the advise.

Chuck, I apologize for hijacking your post, hope you find what works for you.

HH
Fred

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The F75 will provide substantially better
> performance in trashy areas over a PI. The PI
> would be better suited for open fields where
> targets are few..... and mineralization is bad.
>
> Chuck............. what you are looking for
> is............. having the ability to hunt behind
> other detectorists (Cocoa Beach is pounded hard)
> with better success. This comes in two forms. 1)
> Better sensitivity to smaller targets. 2) Better
> depth.
>
> If a PI is 15% deeper........... and 15% more
> sensitive to smaller targets (than the Minelab
> Excal/CZ-20),,,,,,,,,,,,,,, BUT,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> you recover thousands-of-percent MORE iron with
> the PI (vs the Excal) .................... there
> needs to come a 'efficiency' balance. You hardly
> EVER recover iron with a CZ/Excal........... maybe
> 2 iron items per hunt. With a PI........... you
> may recover 200 iron items ............... and 15%
> more of deeper/smaller non-ferrous items. What is
> your endurance. What can your body handle. What
> can your 'mindset' handle.
>
> I seem to find the 40% differential mark to be my
> yes/no threshold ....... as to using a all-metal
> PI vs a unit that can differentiate between
> ferrous and non-ferrous. The White's TDI (when
> set up properly) is very close to 'justification'.
> The no-longer-available AquaStar easily exceeds
> this 40% mark............... and
> quantifies/justifies usage. Finding small fish
> hooks at a foot can be tiring.
>
> Out of time again!!!

thank you tom! what about the tesoro sandshark(west coast fl hunters are having lots of success using these. or garrett infinium.? when you get time please answer the other questions i had. im trying to make a well informed decision on wich pi to buy and what to expect.

my endurance is good, body is good, mindset is good. much better if making good finds!! but i will not know for sure until i use one. finding gold with one will help alot and justify the ammount of junk being dug.

by the way, are eric fosters designs being incorperated into the new whites tdi models?
chuck.

Dew,

What kind of depth are you getting in the wet salt surf w your Excal?

Thx

Aaron

Hard question to answer Aaron. Depends on the target and i use a Pro scoop (11X9") and in the oat meal i bury that sucker as deep as i can.... sometimes you only get on chance. But i have noticed target disappear after the first scoop.... until the hole refills. So normally i just hit it again right away and it pops out. I dug a faint tone today in chest deep water took a pretty good size scoop out and the target that i thought was possible a bottle cap because of the depth turned out to be a 1/2 silver ring. I have no doubt it was at 11 inches. I think your location might also be a factor. BUT .... in my location i dig pennies on the dry sand at 11 inches pretty consistant.

Dew

this part of toms post is the best i have ever read - you need to consider what he is telling you, especially the last part.

(partial quote)

there needs to come a 'efficiency' balance. You hardly EVER recover iron with a CZ/Excal........... maybe 2 iron items per hunt. With a PI........... you may recover 200 iron items ............... and 15% more of deeper/smaller non-ferrous items. What is your endurance. What can your body handle. What can your 'mindset' handle.

I seem to find the 40% differential mark to be my yes/no threshold ....... as to using a all-metal PI vs a unit that can differentiate between ferrous and non-ferrous. The White's TDI (when set up properly) is very close to 'justification'. The no-longer-available AquaStar easily exceeds this 40% mark............... and quantifies/justifies usage. Finding small fish hooks at a foot can be tiring.

seeker---- remember time

Gravediggermax,

I am a little confused. I thought the TDI would allow partical discrimination (not really but through ground balance manpulation and two tones) to cut out iron. You would also lose small gold but since I am relic hunting this is secondary. I don't have a PI but am trying to understand if there are any advantages in my West Tenn soil.

Please explain.

HH
Fred

Dew,
Just curious as Ive used my Excal mostly in fresh water and got some pretty respectable depth. I got a 1913 Buffalo Head at 12", sounded good too.
Thanks

fred, you said: TDI would allow partical discrimination

i claim to know nothing about PI's and especially TDI's.
i have only owned one in 18 years and it was if i remember 2004 - Eric Foster Goldquest SS - waterproof model - in one word: D E E P.
Tom said: - Finding small fish hooks at a foot can be tiring.
I said: - Finding sunglasses, copper, alum, studs, bobby pins, fishhooks well over a foot is tiring, but more importantly very very time consuming.
here in va beach, i have two friends that own TDI's, one is dirt/beach hunter and the other is beach hunter = both also own excals. - we have tested many times and the depth does go to the TDI. - high low, low high - however it goes, they both struggle with iron at depth and it ability to pre-determine what is what.
i think some beaches are much better for PI's and some are NON- PI beaches - all of the old timers here told me not to buy that PI back in 2004 - did i listen?, but after 2 months my light came on and i sold it......never to consider a PI ever again for my beaches locally.
now the fellow with the TDI who is a dirt hunter most of the time - he says he really does good with it for relic hunting - i do not ask what else he digs besides buttons and bullet, but u probalby know a lot more about that field than I.

HH

Fred

i hunt for gold rings just like all beach hunters - or gold in any form.
i use a waterproofed Minelab SePro and if i go chest deep zone, i switch to Excalibur.
with these multi-freq. machines i find many many tiny items - studs, earring backs, small brass fishing swivels - etc and find a great depth - clad and at times deep bottle caps.- 18 cells phones for 2011 - 90 pairs of sunglasses - on and on.

my poiint is: rings, most rings are big and can be detected at great depth by most any top of the line detector because of make up - since 2007 or so, my gold and silver rings have declined in number, but my ring totals have increase, due to the influx of....STAINLESS STEEL RINGS, TITANIUM RINGS, TUNGSTEN CARBIDE RINGS - not to mention tons of junk rings, mood rings.....point i am making is rings in general are good conductors and sound off just fine.

if you look around and look at some of the finds made by the water hunters who do post there finds, u will see many many fine gold - platinum rings and chains and some even find pounds of gold in a given year - most use non-PI machines. - not all.

it all boils down to time.......time spent digging good targets as opposed to time spent digging all sorts of targets.

Max, Jimm Sierra gave me basicly the same advice several years ago when i asked him about wrap around and digging deep targets that MIGHT be a good target while coin hunting. He said the few good targets you got wouldnt justify the time and trash you spent digging.

Dew

Guess it boils down to targets far and few between or if nothing else will work on a bad saltwater beach PI is the way to go if not vice versa..

Heck on NJ salt watershores would dig on every swing but on the other hand have been at hard hit freshwater beaches where you had to hunt in all metal to get a hit...
Indeed digging a foot for a bobbi can get old real quick and even if you ate your wheaties even the best of us would tire quickly not to mention the time consumed where it might be better spent digging perhaps some nice gold jewelry using a non PI....or at least some gas bucks....

So few targets in wet salt in Cocoa Beach area I'd take a good PI (if I had one) over my Excal anytime.

Aaron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So few targets in wet salt in Cocoa Beach area I'd
> take a good PI (if I had one) over my Excal
> anytime.


Aaron

This is kewl ....when I sold my Goldquest PI a fellow in Cocca Beach bought it in aug. 2004 or 05

Sand Shark is very good in fresh water environments........... and less performing in wet salt.

Aaron...... there may seem to not be targets out there, but use PP with the Xcal awhile and you find a lot of bobbie pins, bottle caps, hooks/leaders, and other undesirables out there that the Xcal in disc ignores. Its pretty quiet out there where i hunt and i use PP a good bit.... there is a lot more out there than you think... then add more depth. BUT.... you are right thats a good location to us a PI.

Dew

Dew, I managed to get out there a couple times over the past year and spent a lot of time on the beach with many machines, and really have not found much except clad and earrings. I'd hit the low tides w the Excal then later go over the dry sand w the Au-21x or the GoldBug II. A couple months ago I spent 6hrs down by Coco Nuts bar, working back and forth in the dry sand w the GB II and only found a few earring studs.
That beach gets POUNDED during the winter, not much left in some areas, not even foil!

Ive noticed as the snow birds and spring breaks leave there sure is a lot less competition on the beach. You have to appreciate all those detectors cleaning up the beach just before the summer might improve those recent drop finds. Im just now getting back in the water.... its been choppy and nothing out there anyway. I did pretty well competing with the sand diggers during spring break. got wet today and found a 5.6 g 14k w/10 chips, a 1/2 ounce hammered looking silver ring, and a silver Key jewelry KEY with chips part of the Jane Seymour stuff. Not a detector in sight. All those targets were DEEP. That silver ring didnt do much but churp... but it did repeat and was kind of broken. It had to be 12 to 14 inches. I was running some high sensitivity with just a tad of falsing... somewhere around 8.

Dew