CTX in iron

I went to a site this morning I've had some luck with in the past. Couldn't hunt long because of the heat. This place was an old house site with loads of iron. There is a depression about 100 ft from the homesite. The old locals said it was a cistern. It has since been filled in several times since 1992 by the current landowner. Anyway, I'd hunted the stretch between the home site and cistern many times using the ETrac with multiple coils, V3i, and F75se and never detected anything but iron. This morning I turned the CTX with 11" stock coil loose in this area using Combine mode in auto sensitivity. I locked on to a total of 5 targets in a relatively small area all engulfed in iron. 2 wheats, key, clock gear,small thin copper washer.
On every single target hits were only 2 way signals and I dug multiple pieces of iron during each retrieval. On the 1917 wheat recovered at 8 inches, I actually dug a rusty nail first, then a 1"x2"x1/16"s piece of iron and thought I had gotten fooled, run my pinpointer on down in the hole and walla got tone and retrieved 1917 wheat. On retrieving the small thin copper washer at 9.5 inches I had to first remove 3 old rusty nails at different depths, thinking the whole time I had been fooled by iron. This here CTX is scary in iron patches. The copper washer, wheats, and clock gear came in at 12-40/41 and the key came in at 12-35. And these targets were loud and clear in combine mode with the iron tones coming in with small coil movement off to the side of the targets. Anyone else out there with similar experiences?

Nice report. I am surprised in iron you could use an 11" coil, so I am curious about how bad the iron was! (I have a CTX you know).

I can only restate what I have observed, the CTX is much much faster than the E-Trac. It sort of combines the best qualities of FBS with higher recovery detectors, which is interesting. The biggest performance improvement of the CTX over the E-Trac has been in iron (which makes sense as the depth isn't really much better).

What I am curious to see is how that 6" coil works on iron. My concern though, is that the 6" is not deep as some early reports hinted to that - time will tell.

What pattern, mode and settings were you running? I generally run a minimal disc patter (3 small right bottom squares disc'd out), ferrous coin, fast off, deep off, high sensitivity and 50 CO (I actually find it does better in iron that Combine, albeit much more falsing).

Albert

That is very encouraging news especially w the 11" coil. I have yet to use mine in heavy iron, I'm waiting for the 5" coil and in the mean time been using the DEUS for heavy iron.
I will bring the CTX to the old homesite next week and give it a shot w the 11"
Thanks for the report.

Albert I was running auto plus 2 and 3, combined mode, with ferrous coin, fast recovery, deep off, using long tone. What's nice about this report is I know I've hit this spot from several angles using various machines. And since my experience with the CTX is low I almost left the first target in the ground even though the CTX was a singing over this one little spot giving only a two way hit with iron tones sounding with little coil movement off the target. It is difficult to pinpoint though with all the iron around. I just watch where the target hits consistently and start digging a lot of the time. I can see only one downfall with this detector. Noone makes an in line probe and this makes recovery in all this iron slower. To add, anyone who thinks they will get the benefits of this great performing detector when hunting in iron without a pinpointer is in for a rude awakening.

Thanks for the info. I am really wanting to work with long sounds but I just can't handle it where I hunt as there are two many targets. When I get into an area with more iron and less targets or very few targets overall, I will try it.

How is it to run long where you did (considering my above comment).

Regarding pinpointing - I generally run in sizing as I like to see the app size/shape of the target as well as getting an idea of depth. But when iron is heavier, then the normal mode is best. Have you tried that? It does seem to work well in trash/iron areas.

I never had an inline probe so can't say. I do know that I stopped keeping my video mount on the CTX. Even though it is light, that little bit of weight KILLS the balance of the CTX and I feel it quick, really. Perhaps that Minelab pinpointer will help when run at a reduced sensitivity in iron. (I do see your point with a disc enabled pinpointer).

I actually like the sizing pinpoint better vs normal. In clean ground I want to know the size of target first and foremost, hence sizing pinpoint. I used the long tone when I used the etrac so I stayed with on CTX. What's interesting is how both the ferrous and conductive numbers seem to hang in there even with a target smothered in iron when using ferrous coin target separation. After today's short hunt coupled with my other hunts over the past 10 days it seems some genius went into the CTX's brain and programming. I noticed this gent named Julius, I think, who maybe even works for minelab stated on minelabs website that sites he had hunted hard with etrac and had quit producing were opened back up tremendously when dropping the CTX's coil on them. I believe him based on my experiences with the CTX however short in duration they are. I would have paid admission to have witnessed the discussions in developing and testing the CTX. And some folks will think I'm hyping the machine, oh well.

Would have been good to know how the V3i, ET and F75 SE would have performed on those five exact targets (before dug)..... and with the exact same sweep angle as was found with the CTX. This is the start of a good relative basis for which head-to-head comparison testing (scientifically orchistrated) can be performed. This fashion removes many variables.

It's hard to believe the CTX could beat the F75 in iron, however I am beginning to hear real good things from those who've taken it to iron laden site that were thought to be hunted out.

As I stated previous I'm still waiting for tha 6" coil, that's whats really going to tell how well it does in the junk

The E Trac had a reputation of being a detector that was good at finding masked targets. Especially in TTF mode. In MY OPINION the E Trac was fair at best for the task. I personally liked the AT Pro better in the iron. I think past E Trac users are having their eyes opened by a detector much better at unmasking. Since I don't have the CTX I only read some of the posts. Mostly on this forum. I would really like to read a comparison between the 6 inch coil and stock coil. Is the small coil even needed? My sites that produce old coins are just polluted with iron. Unmasking threads are fascinating to read to me.

I don't think the CTX with the 6" coil will get near the depth that we see on the F75/T2 with the 5" coil. Thus far, it seems 8" in the ground is max and iffy (at least one test garden test I saw on Finds - dime with 1 and another with two nails near it at 8"). 8" is enough for me though.

If that's the truth I've got blurbs about so far on the depth of the CTX 6" coil then that's not very impressive. My S-5 ( 5.5" ) Sun Ray coil on my GT nailed me a silver at 6" between two shallow tabs, and it hit so loud and hard and IDed easily that I think it could have been perhaps 9" or so deep and I would still have easily got it. Keep in mind this is in my soil, where the best two non-Minelab machines I ever owned could only muster about 7.5" max using about an 8 to 10" coil. That's just shocking to me that the little S-5 is beating all other non-Minelabs in depth on a silver dime in my soil. Of course my 12x10 goes much deeper, but darn if that little S-5 don't kick some *ss in depth, not to mention seperation.

I wonder just what is happening inside this smart coil. It seems some say the depth readings are correct when going from the stock 11" to the 6 coil.. So the smart coil must be talking to the CTX's processor.
I would like to know more about these so called "smartcoils". And I wonder just how small a target it will detect as compared to stock 11" coil. And the comparisons on small gold as well. I suspect this coil may be a better performer on smaller targets and or small gold over the 11" coil. May some day we will get the answers



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2012 11:02PM by tnsharpshooter.

critterhunter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If that's the truth I've got blurbs about so far
> on the depth of the CTX 6" coil then that's not
> very impressive. My S-5 ( 5.5" ) Sun Ray coil on
> my GT nailed me a silver at 6" between two shallow
> tabs, and it hit so loud and hard and IDed easily
> that I think it could have been perhaps 9" or so
> deep and I would still have easily got it. Keep in
> mind this is in my soil, where the best two
> non-Minelab machines I ever owned could only
> muster about 7.5" max using about an 8 to 10"
> coil. That's just shocking to me that the little
> S-5 is beating all other non-Minelabs in depth on
> a silver dime in my soil. Of course my 12x10 goes
> much deeper, but darn if that little S-5 don't
> kick some *ss in depth, not to mention seperation.

Meant to say that silver dime was at about 7" deep. That's why I think it could have easily been 9" and still no problem to get a good hit on, because it hit so hard and easy at 7".

I would think most surely you will see a marked improvement for affinity to small target's when using the small coil ......sharpshooter...

And very neat that the machine re-adjust for depth accuracy when the small coil is plugged in...

Dont guess we will see aftermarket coil's for the 3030 unless someone hacks the chip...or Minelab sells the chips to manufacturer's which I doubt will happen..

They tweaked the X-terra v-flex technology.. recently to keep the aftermarket coils from not working...

I am one the fence on this...

I can see them not wanting other companys making money off the product they have spent money on to develop...yet at the same time they wont release certain coils people crave or want...

I see the benefit of the digital data link between coil and detector...

I have been following it on the v-flex platfrom...

all coil's even though they are set on say 7.5 kHz will be slightly off the true 7.5 kHz freq.. well the vflex will align a coil that is say 7.35 khz to the control housing at also 7.35 then if there's a temp change and the coil drift's into another freq the V-flex will adjust to say 7.42...

And I have read that the recieve signal is amped in the coil then converted to a digital signal and sent to the contol box in binary format..like packet data..using simple cat-5 computer cable...which is alot smaller wires than regular coil cable used,,,this alows for less interferance of the signal from E.M.I. sources..

So I see the benefit's of the smart coils and it actually does clean thing's up...But it also allows them the sole profit reaper's of accessory coil's.

not just minelab though...

Look at the Xp DEUS..They have the coils locked down to just them making them...I am sure the chips in there and the radio link make it impossible to copy without spending more money than can be got back by an outside firm..


Keith

The problem with trying to control aftermarket by locking up a product in licensing is it never ends well. Just look at the Beta Max/VHS fight. Beta Max had much better video and other advantages, but they tried to squash others from making compatible format video recorders, while VHS openly sold the rights to others to the format at a modest fee. End result was the makers of VHS got rich and Beta Max when the way of the buggy.

As popular as the Xterra line is among some, it's still at the bottom in terms of Minelabs, and I give that credit partly due to the lack of aftermarket *cheap* coils for it, not to mention selection.

The BBS machines (Excalibur/Sovereign) are unique to most others in that they have a pre-amp on the RX signal inside the coil. This boosts the received signal and strengthens it before it has a chance to pick up EMI running up the coil cable (more robust too to resist that kind of distortion as it travels). Once inside the control box your sensitivity setting further boosts the signal via a gain control like most other machines.

Oddly, I heard Sovereign coils (most) don't have RF shielding in the cable because the RX signal is boosted at the coil in such a way.

Critter,
You are assuming that the 3rd party coil manufacturers are standing in line asking Minelab to sell them the rights to manufacturer coils for the CTX. If I were a 3rd party coil manufacturer, I would much rather put my money in developing coils for machines that are not on their initial manufacturing run. There are many more ETRAC's, Explorers, Safari's out there than CTX's. (using those as an example since they use the same coil) I believe that I would concentrate on those machines. With that being said: What do we actually know about the CTX's coils other than they have a chip in them (like the XP) and that they are expensive (again like the XP) I see the similarity between the stock 11" CTX coil and the stock 11" Pro Coil and I would assume that their coils are electrically equal. That could be far from the truth and unless Minelab would release specs, we will never know.
Bob

Here's a point...How many FBS or BBS guys do you know who use the Minelab 8" coil as a trash coil? Now, some on the Sovereign do prefer that coil for working heavy trash due to it's 7 & 14" size, but as a whole I'd say there are many more Sun Ray S-5/X-5 or 5" Excelerator guys out there, or 8x6 guys, on the FBS/BBS machines combined then there are guys using the 8" Minelab coils for hunting heavy trash. That's the impression I get from the forums anyway. That should tell you something. Guys buy what works on their Minelabs. Sure, those coils are cheaper than the Minelab, but price is no obstacle when a Minelab guy is looking for the best coil for a intended purpose.

Same deal with a large coil. Look at all the 12x10s, S/X-12s, 15x12s, WOTs, and now the Ultimate (gaining in use) that are being used as people's everyday coil compared to the old 10" Explorer or Sovereign coils, and to a large extent many prefer one of them (in particular the 12x10) over the Pro Coil, which is an excellent coil by the way, but still, as good as it is, there is a large group who feel the 12x10 is both deeper and separates left/right wise better. Some disagree, but I'm talking in general terms here.

So, what does that tell you? It tells me that while Minelab hit the ball out of the park with the Pro Coil, and while I think the 10" Tornado on the Sovereign is the best stock coil I've used on any machine (excluding the Pro Coil, but the 10" Tornado is much better than the old 10" Explorer coils), despite how far they've come...They still ain't the weapon of choice for the heavy hitters in both the BBS and FBS machines.

Now I'm reading some less than stellar depth reports of the 6" CTX coil, and that kind of puts an explanation point on the fact that Minelab appears to have this machine all locked up to outside competition to drive down prices on coils, but more importantly to allow a large selection of "weapons of choice" for various situations.

For that reason...I think longer and harder about whether I want to take the CTX plunge. Let's say it does indeed unmask better than another Minelab using the 11" coil, or perhaps even (yet to be seen) than the outstanding left/right separation of the 12x10. How well do you think it will do against an 8x6? That coil is deep, and yet separates very well. OK then, not good enough? Then how about a 5.5" Sun Ray? Then who's laying money down that the CTX is going to unmask better than a Etrac, Explorer, or GT sporting that coil? Proper coil for proper site. Heavy trash, then depth isn't the primary thing of importance, so off to the 5" Excelerator or 5.5" Sun Ray, and let's see what pans out. And those two coils are also pretty outstanding in depth. I've read of FBS guys saying 9 or 10" at least with the Sun Ray, and I think my S-5 on my GT is doing the same based on my limited use thus far with it.

Clean area with deep coin potential? Who is laying their money down the CTX is going to out-depth another Minelab with say a 12x10 on it, or at the very least a WOT or 15x12 perhaps? There is a limit in detection field depth that is linked directly to coil size. Bigger coil= Deeper field, to an extent. Is an 11" coil going to keep up with say a 14.25" WOT or a 15x12 in terms of raw depth? For me, the 15x12 wasn't deeper on coins in my soil than the my stock 10" coil, but others say otherwise for it or the WOT in their soil. For me in my soil the 12x10 is deeper than both, but the point being this too...Let's say the WOT or 15x12 is a bit too big to see depth gains on a dime sized target over the 11" Pro Coil. Then what about the quarters, or the half dollars then, or dollars, or relics of that size or bigger? Is the CTX going to keep up with those with an 11" coil? Interesting question. Let the games begin...:') Oh, I see it does have a 17" coil. Far as I always knew about the limit for a DD coil to still see depth increases on coins is about 14" max in good soil. Less in bad soil due to the target washing out with the ground signal (such as was the case with my 15x12). So I'll be surprised if that 17" coil is going to show gains on say at least silver dimes over the stock 11" coil. If it does that'll be a first. All interesting questions. It's a great age to be alive in detecting to see this stuff play out. :')

All this aside, I'm just saying...With so many coil choices on the FBS and BBS machines, there does seem to be a coil for every unique site's needs. That diversity might make up for any depth or separation abilities the CTX may or may not have, so long as the proper tool is chosen for the proper site. Coins not sinking too far at a site but the trash and iron is bad? Strap on a small trash coil as depth isn't out of their reach. Etc.

Still seeing mixed reports...Just read the latest on the Excal/Sov water and beach debate. Even on dry sand I'm reading the CTX isn't hitting stuff as deep for some...The mystery of BBS handling harsh mineral sites better than FBS machines *for some in some soils or sands* continues...:'

OK, now I'm really tired...



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2012 06:27AM by critterhunter.

Critter - A decent number of guys got the CTX because it is easier on their backs, like me. I was content with the E-Trac and 6X8 SEF, Stock and 13" Detech. I really found that 13" Detech to just get another 1" - 1.5" in my ground (Same for the 10X12). I am pretty content to just have the CTX with the stock coil and then maybe get a smaller coil down the line (I don't hunt super trashy spots, so I can suffice with the stock). I am also liking the simplicity and peace of mind of knowing my CTX with stock coil is at least as good as the E-Trac with the stock coil OR 13" / 12" X 10" coil on it. No coil changes. No, not worth the money still, but I did the upgrade for the back (there it is worth the money in a sense). I enjoy the recovery speed being MUCH faster. I enjoy seeing those numbers quicker. I enjoy the more solid VID numbers. I enjoy the interface, color screen, more choices of ground settings and tones. I could go on.

Sometimes it's just the journey and not the destination that is most fun for me. I know, sort of ironic.

I do not at all like what Minelab did with locking down the coils, whether or not that was their intention or if it was purely a matter of the pre-processing. I am not spending 300 bucks on a coil anytime soon though, and a lot of guys feel the same!

Again, if and when Fisher comes out with a lightweight and fast CZ that is OPEN to aftermarket coils, look out Minelab and CTX. If the performance is close I'll jump ship. I love the CTX but it still isn't worth as much as they are charging.

"Again, if and when Fisher comes out with a lightweight and fast CZ that is OPEN to aftermarket coils, look out Minelab and CTX. If the performance is close I'll jump ship. I love the CTX but it still isn't worth as much as they are charging. "

Me too Albert.
I know how good the Fisher machines are too.
If they release a multi-frequency CZ, I'll sell all and get back to Fisher. I regret switching in the first place.