Will ground balance offset increase my VLF detector's depth in mineralized soil

Will the "ground tracking offset" as it's called on the White's V3i or "ground balance offset" as it's called on the Fisher F75se; if done properly, increase the detection depth while operating in the discrimination mode when hunting in medium to high mineralized ground? And if so how much depth and how would a person know how to adjust it to the proper setting? I've had someone tell me this is true but I'm thinking not true. Am I correct in my thinking ? That whatever depth loss the ground is causing you are stuck with it. Maybe aside from changing coils.

Hate to hog the answers ...

But yes I hunt like this alot in my bad soil....I adjust my ground balance negative in disc mode till I get some ground noise feed back then set it back up slightly till it just barely makes noise....this helps when running it in disc mode to obtain more depth....

Do a simple test in your yard...bury a target to the fring depth so you just cant hear it on your machine when properly ground balanced.....say a dime at 9 - 10 inches..then turn you ground bal back CCW till you get some ground noise coming in on a sweep or even a coil bob...the go back a tad CW till it gets rid of the ground noise...do this in disc mode not all metal mode....

Now go across the dime and there should be a marked increase in the ability to all of a sudden hear it...

now this works best with a DD coil especially of the elliptical type in the 5x10 range up to say a f75 size 7x11...

The Elliptical DD's see less ground and allow for more negative ground bal than a concentric...yet still have excellent depth ...

Now the target's when heard will sound a little different than what you are accustom to maybe...what happens is when you get a signal it opens the gate and allows the ground noise to come in at the same time of the target so if you are running 2 tone you will hear more of say a iron buzz on the edges of the target.. on the approach and the departure..get used to it.. you might think it's deep iron to begin with ..There is other techniques also for hunting bad dirt maybe I will list one in another thread..

Keith



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2012 02:49AM by Keith Southern.

Thanks Keith, I have asked this question before concerning the White's machine I mentioned on the findmall forum and the reply I got from the moderator was in so many words" the ground tracking offset is for meteorite hunting and will not aid in coin hunting". To add there is nothing that you talked about concerning acquiring the extra depth mentioned anywhere on the white's forum to include supplemental information entitled "Hunting with a whites v3i in mineralized ground" posted by an engineer at white's on white's froum. So I guess we detectorists were supposed to figure this out on our own or admit ignorance like I did and asked on a forum that has experienced users with wealths of knowledge. Does this depth loss compensation entirely compensate for the losses attributed to bad soil or does it just partially compensate? Not to worry, I don't expect a diploma as long as you don't charge for information. lol



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2012 01:38PM by tnsharpshooter.

To answer your question "Does this depth loss compensation entirely compensate for the losses attributed to bad soil or does it just partially compensate?"

truthfully to many variables to say on say target to target in one certain area but as awhole,No it will not completely reverse the effect's of the mineralization..

...But I do know it will find more in bad dirt when used right....I know theres still lot's to be found in bad dirt...this is not a cure just a remedy/bandaid.

Do some of your own testing in the scenario you ask about and see if you do not get result's to the positive...

Keith



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2012 06:45AM by Keith Southern.

Shhh don't let the cat out of the bag!
Them deep dimes are getting left behind just waiting.
With practice you'll be digging deeper than you ever have before and offsetting works in nails also but at a different degree
Been swinging 30+ years and still learning!

Negative offset for minerals/bad dirt/depth - positive offset for smaller low conductors.....old school stuff that still has merit. Good question & answers...thanks for postin'.

This's topic hasn't been discussed nearly a enough . Go read the whites forums about v3i complains about how their machines work flawlessly one day and erratic the next with no changes in same ground.
What gives: The machine and adjustments are the same so has the ground changed?Probably not but the moisture content constantly is changing and that affects mineralatzation values - it would have too.
So if we have a machine that's adapted to the conditions of the ground changes then with proper adjustment would not the machine perform better?
My deepest coin or relic finds to date have been found with a whites v3i which I never operate with a 0-0 ground balance and I firmly believe that's what causes the minelab machines to be restricted to about 9 inches but that is just my opinion as my deepest ctx or etrac finds haven't exceeded that depth yet.
The ground mineral level is never a constant it's level of minerals are different in many areas so how could a machine be preset to overcome a variable ?
Please everyone chime in with your thoughts on this intriguing issue or is it just another puzzle that can't have a definite answer?

Hey Silver Master if I am following you right you are asking how the V3i can track a variable?

Sorry it's late and I might be misreading you question...

On my 705 it tracks but I can choose it to track up to 15 point's negative or positive to what the machine says is dead on....

Is this what you are asking..

Sorry for the confusion on my part..

Keith

Keith that's not what concerns me a v3i will autotrac with a offset variable applied also.
My question is ------ is this the reason some machines without a adjustment capability to compensate are limited on depth.
I mainly hunt civil war relics and most good finds exceed 10 inches and just need all depth any machine could offer in any circumstance.

I'll let you guess where this info came from. It seems this gent left out what maybe the most imporant difference between these 2 detectors when trying to detect in mineralized ground as there seems according to the Vx3 operators manual -No way to offset the ground balance.


Here's the info giving theVX3 Default Settings
Here's a "rule of thumb" for VX3 owners or potential buyers that will answer some questions about default settings.

"In General", the default settings for VX3 pretty much parallel the default settings for V3i.

Here's some examples:

o VX3 always runs in CORRELATE mode.
- The default WRAP setting = 30 and the default SPAN setting = -91.

o VX3 Normal Three Frequency Mode does NOT employ Salt Subtraction
- Salt Frequency DOES employ Salt Subtraction
- The Salt Beach Program DEFAULT = Salt Subtraction

o VX3 always runs in NORMALIZED mode
- This is true in all frequency modes

o VX3 AutoTrac is selectable - ON / OFF
- Track Inhibit is defaulted = ON (Stops tracking when PP is activated)
- Track Report is defaulted = ON (Shows tracking << >> indicators)

o Hot Rock Reject default = OFF

o Bottlecap Reject default = OFF
- Exception = HI PRO Program, where BCR = 1

o VDI -95 default = Accept
- Recommend that -95 be set = REJECT

When I set VX3 and V3i to identical RXG, DS and AM sensitivities, employ the same Ground Filter, Tracking and Recovery Delay settings, etc, I can't see any significance difference in performance in terms of stability, depth or target identification. This testing was completed in two venues; air testing and buried targets. I used the identical coil from each unit and repeated the testing with each coil on each machine, to eliminate variances in coil production. EG: I used the "as delivered" 950 coil from VX3 on both the VX3and V3i. I used the "as delivered" 10"DD coil from V3i on both VX3 and V3i.

From these "benchmarks", without changing RXG, DS or AM settings, I CAN set V3i so that it's performance exceeds that available from VX3. Here are some examples:

o Increasing BCR helps with bottlecap and iron rejection
o Additional Ground Filters adds flexibility in varying ground conditions
o Ability to change Fade Rate / Consistency aids in the identification of surface foil
o Ability to employ Salt Soil with Normal 3F Mode adds flexibility in varying ground conditions
o Ability to employ TX Boost adds depth and aids in dealing with EMI
o Ability to change WRAP and SPAN adds flexibility in higher mineralization / deep target situations
o Ability to change coil settings improves PP depth readout accuracy

Individually and collectively, the ability to change these settings enables V3i to be a bit more accurate in target identification and may / may not offer a slight depth improvement, based on ground mineralization and other environmental conditions.

End Of The Day:

VX3 is outstanding performer. With identical settings it will keep pace with V3i. That being said, if you want "the best of the best" and the absolute upmost in performance and ability to tailor your detector to your style of hunting in any and every venue, then V3i is your choice.

Hope this is helpful. comparisons between the V3i and Vx3.

Never used a V3 but those that experiment in negative-positive or even dead on ground balancing excel. Indeed one can never learn enough about this hobby is surely a truism and manytimes its not the unit but the nut behind the wheel.

This is an old rule of thumb in detecting circles. By balancing the machine slightly "hot", meaning a slight increase in threshold as the coil approaches the ground during ground balancing, some believe it will give you a bit more depth. A filter is set up in conventional ground balancing to ignore the ground signal (filter it out) and sound off to anything that goes above that filter. By balancing with the ground signal almost breaking through (slight increase in threshold as the coil approaches the ground during balancing) you can push the ground signal right to the edge of the filter and so a target is more readily able to trip over the edge of that filter and sound off.

Now, there is a fine line here. Too "hot" of a balance and now the machine will false too much, and so you might ignore or miss a real deep coin as being ground chatter.

Also, be careful when balancing. Many machines use a SAT (self adjusting threshold) to stabilize the threshold which is still active during the ground balancing function. For that reason you might approach or leave the ground with the coil and believe it is balanced, but only because the threshold is being adjusted back to normal levels as the SAT aspect tunes it. For that reason you need to pay attention to the threshold that split second it approaches or leaves the ground, and not what it does after a second or two after that, where it could very well smooth out to normal levels again due to SAT.

Also, be sure to balance at the height you normaly swing the coil. If you balance it with it kissing the ground but hunt with it higher than that you are changing the ground load.

o.k I see where you are coming from now silver master...

And No is the answer to your question... some machine's that cant compensate for a offset ground bal are not limited to being poor depth performer's..

there's too many other thing's...type of filter's...coil design's....sweep speed tolerances...etc....Discrimination works off phase shift principal..but manufacturer's go different routes to get to the final outcome.....

Sure some machienreally garner alot fo from having offset ground bal...but they have to have the right coil also DD usually...

Some machine's like say a 1266 does not even have a ground control...Yet look at the awesome depth it can achieve even till this day....It goes about things ina different way...the disc circuit really is only working the first 6 or so inches then anything past that is heard on areduced level,,,less filtering...to tune ear the deep bullet's will sound different to the dep nails by a simple slight unsmoothness to response...nails will be abrupt bullet's buttons coins etc will be ROUND sounding...

An MXT running mixed mode audio al metal and disc at the same time really does not run well if the ground is negatve or positive becasue of the blow back off the all metal side from the threshold dropping in and out froman uneven ground bal...so it is set perfectly...

But although the MXT is not quite as deep in the disc mode as some other's... if you monitor the all metal side in unison with the disc you will learn that the deep theshold waiver's that do not signal on the disc mode are worth investiagting ...you know there's a target out of reach of the disc depth...even your iron tone disc depth....

A simple badido 2 umax can offer great depth if you run all metal and check deep sounding smooth target's in disc mode...no sound dig till a sound a crackle on disc dig till it becomes good or is rejected cleanly as a nail...


So a machine that does not offset is not limited to depth there's other ways of doing thing's..

Thats why it's of the utmost importance to really understand you machine to the nth degree...

they are all pretty equal in the long run on isolated target's you just have to set them up right...Iron unmasking though is a whole different ball game and takes aspecial set of learned skill's attitude and proper equipment..

Keith