The CTX's coil is alive on silver

Back in the church yard again this evening running combine mode, ferrous coin, auto sensivity running at 27, deep on, fast off. Got a good high tone 12-44/45 showing 7 inches deep. This particular area has little/no iron. I couldn't believe how much coil span (front to back of coil-roughly 6") I was getting this good clean audio on a 1954 dime at about 6.5 inches. It's hard to believe how many coins I've already found in places I've hunted and others as well with good/great machines. And a lot of them are right out in the open with what appears to be no trash/iron around them and not that deep either. Spooky to say the least. And I'm seeing similar comments being made on other forums.

If out in the open at those depths with no masking I just don't see how another machine would miss them. Attitude can do wonders, but I would like to see some head to heads on those "easy" unmasked shallower coins to see if something is going on other than that. Could be a coin on edge, but the right coil on another machine can do wonders for that. The 12x10 is known for coins on edge, and same deal with the WOT. The 15x12 when I owned one seemed to have a nack for it too, but I suspect not as well as the 12x10 due to the 12x10 being more sensitive to tiny stuff, like the edge of a coin, although I was pretty impressed with the small stuff I'd dig at depth with the 15x12. The 12x10 seems deeper in my soil though than the 15x12 was on coin sized targets. Others agree, while others say otherwise.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2012 03:49AM by critterhunter.

Well Critterhunter I have 2 etracs with the following coils: WOT, 13" ultimate, 10x12 sef, 2 procoils, 6x8 sef, and sunray X-5. I haven't had my CTX that long. I have been in some small places where I did find coins/silver with etrac with above coils. And these small places were hunted numerous times with etrac. I have found coinage in all of them with CTX. And some of the coins were around iron/trash and some were out in the open. If you read my post below concerning the tests done with an inground target you will notice the etrac with even the 10x12 sef coil didn't sound near as good or look as good on the screen as compared to CTX, plus the etrac needed higher sensivity to detect, which may open the machine up to more EMI. And granted I already knew where the target was when I was checking with etrac. You see, in ground comparisons are nice but you have already found the target. When you are sweeping to find a target you're on your own. Just you, your machine, and headsets. I don't believe all machines are created equal. I feel even though 2 machines may see the same coin for example one may make finding the coin easier-less dicey- or have a higher rate of detection due to better EMI mitigation, better audio quality, larger coil span detection, be more sensitive, etc. Folks like ronfin and hershey1 on findmall are having similar experieces to mine, and I think hershey1 is a veteran detectorist.

I still say nothing is ruled out until perception AND attitude can be ruled out. I can tell you I've gone into gridded out small spots with every machine I've owned over the years as a proving ground for them and found "easy" shallow silver with no masking involved. One that comes to mind more recently was a standing liberty quarter at 7" with my GT at a small spot I had gridded two directions with my prior 3 Explores (each time I owned them) and several other machines. Same angle of grid, and yet here pops out an easy SL quarter with no masking. Now you tell me why all those other machines missed that? Fact is they didn't, I probably did. And why? Attitude. I wanted to try my new SEF (and GT for the first time at this spot) at this particular small proving ground which has a lot of iron and hot rocks. Sure, I dug some masked coins and a silver ring on edge (the sound of on edge stuff is distinct on this machine...and so I carefuly plucked the ring from the side of the hole on edge knowing I wanted to see that) that I feel the GT got what the other machines couldn't do, but there's been plenty of "easy" silver at several small sites I've gridded with other prior machines. Yes, the GT has pulled me coins in iron seemingly better than my Explorers did, but still there are those "easy" ones where you shake your head and think "Now why did I miss that before?" Luck of the draw, missed by an inch to the side of the coil, any of those things...And all can be changed because of attitude. If I plunked a bunch of money down on a new machine, even I am going to want to believe, to "make it happen", to "go out there and get it", and that is why nothing is proven, until intensive head to head testing is done. Too many other variables involved to say otherwise. When you are eager to prove and believe that it can, that's 99% of the battle IMO in anything in life, not just metal detecting.

i can corroborate this information,as i have seen,and read those posts
he refers too! i keep thinking that maybe it's a gimmick BUT its NOT!
it is happening that way! yes it's hard to believe!

(h.h.!)
j.t.

One more quick example. Last year a friend had gridded a small spot between a sidewalk and a fence. Roughly 20 foot wide or so and maybe 30 feet long or so. He's an intense gridder, doesn't miss much, and digs it all, or at least even the iffy-est of coin hits. Second time we show up at the site I decide to wander through that area. Instantly got a 2" hit that was making me think "wheat" due to the nature of it's climb and lingering on certain numbers. I even called him over and said sweep this. He did...said "wheatie." I dug the coin and out it pops...a 1842 seated dime. No masking. No depth. Why? First words out of his mouth were "how in the heck did I miss that?" Who knows, but I think we all do. He just plain missed it. I was confident my machine might pull more deeper coins or stuff masked then his 6000 Pro XL could at that spot, yet here it was...Not deep. Not masked...Just missed. And he was digging ALL coin signals when he gridded that spot, zincs and all. It was my attitude. I only wandered, didn't grid, but I had something more important- intent, backed by an attitude to find what he couldn't, but in the end I just found what he just plainly missed.

yes! this is indeed possible! the next time you begin to hunt "anywhere"
take a moment to scan "visually" with your eyes the site you are about to hunt,
then take a dime out of your pocket and 'scan " it for a "size comparison" to the area
you will hunt,and you will have your answer on "how",the dime could be missed,AND this
is especially significant if one is using a "concentric" coil,as the "inverted cone" effect
of the detection field requires total overlapping sweeps to properly cover even a gridded area!
point is a 'dime" can be easily overlooked because it is a very small object when compared
to a given area it is located in.

(h.h.!)
j.t.

Well critterhunter, I believe I'm a person of sound mind and body. Granted I've only been detecting about 2 years. I did spend 22 yrs in the USAF playing around with radios, radar, inertial navigation and instruments and did receive some robust training, not only on electronics but leadership and management and fought in 3 wars. I've been retired now for 9.5 years and am 50 years old and I call a ball a ball and a strike a strike. I am, I guess you could call an out of the box thinker. I'm not a person who takes an indefensible position and then try to defend it-that's for the lawyers to do. So, are we to believe the CTX 3030 is just a repackaged etrac with just color screen, waterproof, and GPS added? Is the FBS2 just the same as FBS? Funny why minelab would have needed a trademark on it. If the coins that are being discovered in hunted out places are just "blind luck" as you put it, then why doesn't everyone just have an ACE250, save their hard earned money and go and clean out these parks and etc? Why do you place emphasis on the sov GT? It's obvious anythting you find with it an Ace will crush as long as you get the detectors coil over it. And now attitude. Yes a positive attitude is a great thing to have and possess. But a positive attitude solely aint going to make a coin sound off necessarily while it's under a metal detector's coil. I believe in reality. And I also believe you can't keep doing the things the same way and expect different results. You know I've been reading some posts from several folks about the iron handling abilities of the garrett AT pro. According to them it looks like it does a pretty good job for a $500 dollar detector. And some of these people are veteran detectorist. What am I to believe that they are all wrong, and the jewelry/coins they are finding are "blind luck"? I really believe garrett puts some thoughts/engineering behind the detector. And no I haven't got one or used one. Let's talk about flukes. Sure they can happen. But at what point do they not become flukes? I'm one to think that today's metal detectors are more efficient than the detectors of yesteryear. If this wasn't the case I suspect there wouldn't be many coins found in parks, if any at all. And just how would be the best way to test a new detector? Take it to virgin ground or a site that's been pounded? And in this virgin site if you made a lot of finds, what if any conclusions could you draw other than the fact that relics/coins/jewelry was once used or lost there? Or maybe just better go to a pounded site that's already had some technologically advanced detectors on it and then made some finds. Metal detecting intriques me. I am usually a rifle man hence my screen name. And yes I can hold my own and a little bit of the other person's "as Paul Newman alluded to in his movie The Color of Money".



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2012 11:20AM by tnsharpshooter.

tnsharpshooter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well critterhunter, I believe I'm a person of
> sound mind and body. Granted I've only been
> detecting about 2 years. I did spend 22 yrs in
> the USAF playing around with radios, radar,
> inertial navigation and instruments and did
> receive some robust training, not only on
> electronics but leadership and management and
> fought in 3 wars. I've been retired now for 9.5
> years and am 50 years old and I call a ball a ball
> and a strike a strike. I am, I guess you could
> call an out of the box thinker. I'm not a person
> who takes an indefensible position and then try to
> defend it-that's for the lawyers to do. So, are
> we to believe the CTX 3030 is just a repackaged
> etrac with just color screen, waterproof, and GPS
> added? Is the FBS2 just the same as FBS? Funny
> why minelab would have needed a trademark on it.
> If the coins that are being discovered in hunted
> out places are just "blind luck" as you put it,
> then why doesn't everyone just have an ACE250,
> save their hard earned money and go and clean out
> these parks and etc? Why do you place emphasis on
> the sov GT? It's obvious anythting you find with
> it an Ace will crush as long as you get the
> detectors coil over it. And now attitude. Yes a
> positive attitude is a great thing to have and
> possess. But a positive attitude solely aint
> going to make a coin sound off necessarily while
> it's under a metal detector's coil. I believe in
> reality. And I also believe you can't keep doing
> the same things and expect different results. You
> know I've been reading some posts from several
> folks about the iron handling abilities of the
> garrett AT pro. According to them it looks like
> it does a pretty good job for a $500 dollar
> detector. And some of these people are veteran
> detectorist. What am I to believe that they are
> all wrong, and the jewelry/coins they are finding
> are "blind luck"? I really believe garrett puts
> some thoughts/engineering behind the detector.
> And no I haven't got one or used one. Let's talk
> about flukes. Sure they can happen. But at what
> point do they not become flukes? I'm one to think
> that today's metal detectors are more efficient
> than the detectors of yesteryear. If this wasn't
> the case I suspect there wouldn't be many coins
> found in parks, if any at all. And just how
> would be the best way to test a new detector?
> Take it to virgin ground or a site that's been
> pounded? And in this virgin site if you made a
> lot of finds, what if any conclusions could you
> draw other than the fact that relics/coins/jewelry
> was once used or lost there? Or maybe just better
> go to a pounded site that's already had some
> technologically advanced detectors on it and then
> made some finds. Metal detecting intriques me. I
> am usually a rifle man hence my screen name. And
> yes I can hold my own and a little bit of the
> other person's "as Paul Newman alluded to in his
> movie The Color of Money".

Nice post and my sentiments regarding the CTX are very similar to yours. Critter brings up some good points, but there clearly is something about the CTX that sets it apart from other FBS units. I don't think it's a huge giant leap, after all I'm only getting another 1" or so depth, but I do think it is a decent improvement over the E-Trac, performance wise. I'm sure as more people do comparision videos we are just going to see more of the same.

I do have the feeling in the back of Critter's mind, that he is going to wish he got one sooner rather than later, but it's just a feeling.

Albert, something else to ponder. I wonder just how many silver coins have been found with FBS versus standard VLF machines in the last 10 years? And I wonder if minelab didn't start the FBS and no other company would have pursued it, how many old coins would still exists in the old parks and such today? Consider this scenario. Imagine engineering a detector that will detect a silver dime on edge at a mere 1/16" deeper than the next best detector during the same EMI and ground conditions. What would this translate to; especially when you think of the acreage covered just in the US of A over the course of a years time. Or engineer a detector that will detect a dime with a nail lying just 1/16" inch closer to the dime. I hope you read my comparison post on the in ground target comparing the different detectors. I'm surprised someone hasn't cried faulty test or biased test. But in the test only 2 of the detectors with their stock coils actually saw the target to adequately make a dig decision. Tom mentioned something in response to the post that's very imporant and that is "Time". Time is of the essence when it comes to metal detecting. There are only so many hours in a day, plus the time we dedicate to the hobby is generally limited because of other commitments or problems/situations. I truly feel that's one reason the fbs machines have killed the coinage; especially silver. They identify it better which translates into a hgiher percentage of holes dug with with actual coins in them. I am not a dig everything kinda guy. But if I got in a site that was producing some very old coin I would try and dig at least a few of the lower conductor signals. So you probably won't see me posting much gold in the near future unless it's a big ring that might ring in a little higher on the conductive scale. And to add, if after 5 years of R&D we could say get 3 additional inches of detection on coinage,with a detector possessing an eleven inch coil, I guess then we would be digging some 30 inch holes in about the year 2048 chasing silver dimes. The backhoe industry would love to see it. Don't think it'll happen unless the study of super conductors comes to life, battery technology gets significantly better, and transmitter power levels are raised tremendously. I forget where I read it but I think it becomes exponentially impossible based on frequency, weight, and power requirements.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2012 11:17AM by tnsharpshooter.

My opinion is that we don't really cover ground all that well. We think we are, but in reality we miss a lot of ground and therefore a lot of targets. Mostly due to lack of understanding what the soil does to the detection field in different soil types, which in turn prevents proper overlaps. I guess that is a good thing for many of us as we continue to find good targets in hunted spots.

And second is that there are indeed machines that hit better than others on certain targets in certain soil types and bring them in better. Some machines like it dry, some machines like it damp, some machines resonate better with one type of target over another. Coils can play a big part in this too. It could well be that the CTX and it's coil give better coverage in particular soil types and therefore finds more missed targets. Might also be related to physical design. :shrug:

HH
Mike

Critterhunter, you're a skeptical person. I get that.

Maybe you're right, maybe tnsharpshooter and others making finds with the CTX in areas they consider hunted out aren't doing it because of the detector.

But they are using the machine and you aren't. Being a user of the machine being talked about adds a certain amount of gravitas.

If you wanted to find out about college life, would you ask a high school dropout? If you wanted to find out what the military is like, would you ask someone who's been a civilian all their life?

You've spent thousands if not millions of words questioning the value and ability of the CTX 3030. You write very well and are obviously an intelligent person. But your opinions are all based on second-hand knowledge.

The most qualified opinions come from those actually using the machine.

TNSharpshooter - FBS sure does seem to hit well on silver. I remember when I first starting reading the boards 8 years ago or so and saw what the Minelabs were doing with silver. That was all I needed - I stayed away from them for years! Really, it was a terrible position. I wanted to be different so I got and learned on a Nautilus IIB. Only in the last 7 months did I break down and get an E-Trac, and now a CTX. I wish I would have tried a BBS along the way with an FBS to see how they did as well. Well, in the States where hunting pressure is more, I guess you'd see the effect on the parks, just less silver left. I did read your before mentioned thread and liked it. Perhaps the only reason I didn't comment was I was frustrated with my 10" and 11" pull tabs - semi proud at the same time! LOL

Regarding detecting depth, I do wonder if we can get another 3". E.g. - Why not integrate; have a mode, similar to the Bliss on an FBS machine, or other machine? The Bliss and Fisher that it appears similar to are not new technology, just quite creative. We'll see though. 3" more for me would be 12" or so, that I can handle. If I was getting 12" depth already, I probably would be content.

Critter - Not to gang up on you, but I do see and have commented on what others are saying. For someone that doesn't have the machine you spend an awful lot of time talking about it, even starting threads on it. If you had the machine your words would be much much heavier. You do add something of course as you are apparently knowledgeable in this field but it is a bit out of place or odd. Your threads are on the CTX are very long as well. Sometimes less is more, at least in this case imo.

Albert

The CTX might not be the second comming, but there are some obvious improvements thats made it a better machine. I believe.... and i enclude myself, that a lot of people are only held back on this machine because of price not what it can do. This is a learning curve and people are just now tweaking its capabilities..... the more people share information..... and im talking those using it not mindless chatter..... the more accepted it may become. Mike makes a lot of good points as to why targets are missed..... so goes the remark, no one gets it all. Lets add disc, machine design, and time used by the owner Mike.

Dew

quoting Dew, "Lets add disc, machine design, and time used by the owner, Mike".

I agree. Those all play a large roll as well.

HH
Mike

I am curious about the CTX and how discrimination affects it. The E-Trac, when run with minimal iron disc (well, to me that is around 28 on down, perhaps on just the right half of the screen if you want to get more minimal) was slightly better than the default coin program regarding depth. Anyone find noticeably better depth?

The E-Trac seemed to operate incredibly with disc, but then again, you almost had to run some in 50 CO. I didn't like TTF as much. On the CTX, using ferrous coin mostly, I find that though 50 CO falses quite a bit more than an open combine screen, it misses less as far as masked targets. This is with just the bottom right three boxes disc'd out. (This is roughly 28 on down and the bottom 2/3 or so of that area.)

I've heard some people getting more depth running less disc, this I have to test further. Would love to hear what others have found here.

sharpshooter -- You have to look past Critter. The best thing to do is if you see his name, scroll and scroll and scroll some more til you get right past the darn post/book he made...then scroll some more cause he usually posts another one to follow up the first one. Don't waste your time replying to him. You could do a video showing what you are talking about and he would say something like "I've read on other forums by someone who seen a CTX at the park and they said that it wouldn't do that" or maybe it will be "it works good for you in your soil but that don't mean it will work here". Heck you can even offer to come to him and give a demo on it at his sites but he says he don't have time for that...he must be too busy typing up more 1,000 word novels about stuff he's read on other forums. He would make a good newspaper reporter/columnist...research everything second hand from hearsay about things he knows nothing about first hand, then publish it for everybody to read. Reminds me of reading Reg's long winded posts on the Whites TDI forum...except Reg actually used the machine he talked so much about.

Jeeze Daniel, I'm glad I wasn't drinking something when I read that post, I'd of ruined my lap top.
Sorry Critter, but it was funny as he!!. I do think you hold the record for the longest posts with kickers to boot. Hope you take it lightly.

ROFL!!!!!!!!

Critterhunter, with your literary and detecting skill I think you could make a very positive contribution of knowledge if you would buy a CTX 3030.

Remember the Pro-Pointer? You said no way over $100 for a pinpointer and look how you feel now. That could be you in a few months with the 3030. At the very least, if you don't like it, you could make a positive contribution by warning others who may be going through the same self-agony of deciding whether to buy or not.

But I think you are getting scared off by a relatively small minority of negative reports. I'm seeing a LOT of e-trac users selling and not looking back. Judging from the knowledge you've imparted on these forums, I think you'd certainly be qualified to climb to the top of the 3030 learning curve.

The detector may cost 2K+ but that's not your risk. Try it for a while, keep it nice and if you don't like it you'll get the vast amount of your money back when you sell.

I know if I was using a CTX I'd be hoping you'd try one so I could read your insights as you learned, then mastered the detector.

Personally, I hope you'll reconsider your decision not to buy the new ML 25 pinpointer. I was looking forward to your reports.

Daniel Tn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sharpshooter -- You have to look past Critter. The
> best thing to do is if you see his name, scroll
> and scroll and scroll some more til you get right
> past the darn post/book he made...then scroll some
> more cause he usually posts another one to follow
> up the first one. Don't waste your time replying
> to him. You could do a video showing what you are
> talking about and he would say something like
> "I've read on other forums by someone who seen a
> CTX at the park and they said that it wouldn't do
> that" or maybe it will be "it works good for you
> in your soil but that don't mean it will work
> here". Heck you can even offer to come to him and
> give a demo on it at his sites but he says he
> don't have time for that...he must be too busy
> typing up more 1,000 word novels about stuff he's
> read on other forums. He would make a good
> newspaper reporter/columnist...research everything
> second hand from hearsay about things he knows
> nothing about first hand, then publish it for
> everybody to read. Reminds me of reading Reg's
> long winded posts on the Whites TDI forum...except
> Reg actually used the machine he talked so much
> about.

as newspapers deal in "sensationalism",and
limited facts to sell the paper,one can understand
the meaning of these comments!

(h.h.!)
j.t.

(h.h.!)
j.t.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2012 04:24AM by jmaryt.

Some things to ponder....once read it would take years to hunt a football field completely and doubt if thats even possible, coins move along with the masking influences.

Explorer series has been around since 99 and CTX is basically the new kid on the block and although expensive is an improved model and heck wasn't comfortable with my original CZ6 for months until I learned it and imagine until the CTX is learned expect pro and con posts.

Sure luck plays a part but improved electronics has to be dialed in.....well learned electronics that is....

As far as posts some are long winded and then again some are short and right to the point. In any case its up to the reader to read or not and well some are just more knowlegable so read all posts if you wish with a grain of salt...