Hey Earthmansurfer, Here's My Sovereign GT Elevated Nail Masking Test Video To Compare To The Famous One You Did With Your CTX. I Also Did A Few Other Quick Masking Tests Too In This Very Short Video.

Here's your video...

[www.youtube.com]

And here's mine...But first, a little lead up to it...Keep in mind I was right under some power lines and right next to a house so the Sovereign was a good bit unstable/noisy due to EMI, and also keep in mind that the built in speaker of the Sovereign doesn't do it's rich long detailed audio with fine details and sweet numerous tone alerts justice. All that said, I think the old girl did pretty good. :')

Just goes to show what I was saying before...The nature of coil detection fields means they can't hit a shallower metal object and then see something deeper in the field at the same time. It all boils down to a good sharp DD line on a quality DD coil. Sure, you've got to have a quality machine too like a Minelab, but a machine can't separate what the coil can't see separately.

What you are seeing here, and as I told you before about your video, is the DD line nulling on the iron when it's first hitting it, and then as the coil moves and the DD line becomes parallel to the nail (thus no longer in the coil's detection field), the DD line is then able to go deeper and see the top surface of the coin off to the side of the nail.

Nothing magic hear. You just need a good top of the line machine (such as the Sovereign) and a good sharp DD coil. I look forward to criticisisms, nitpicking, differing opinions...And maybe when that's all out of the way somebody might admit that a "lowly" machine like the Sovereign is doing something they thought not possible. :') I've even done this test with the stock 10" Tornado with similar results in the past, as that's the best stock DD coil I ever used on a detector. Goes deep and has a sharp field. Much better and with a far less "fuzzy" field than the various renditions of Minelab 10" coils I had on my Explorers.

As a sidenote...Note how the GT is able to react to and separate the dime from both nails at the end of the test even with a rather fast movement of the coil. I wanted to note that because many people watch that infamous Norfolk video and think the Sovereign won't see a coin that is two feet fronm a nail in the air test he did. That's because the guy was swinging the coil like he was launching a golf ball! You can't do that with ANY Minelab, and it really bothers me that it has led people to believe that the Sovereign is useless in heavy trash and iron.

In fact, I'd say the reverse of that is true. Best machine I've ever used in trash. You just can't be swinging the coil around like your killing snakes or trying to put out a fire at the end of your detector shaft. :') It's all about proper coil control. Yes, you can go faster than some would suspect with the Sovereign, but there's also a "technique" to it when you want to do that. I prefer slow though 99% of the time, as I find at hard pounded sites when you can work the coil slow on a machine you can sniff out stuff that you just can't do with a machine that requires you to maintain a certain high level of coil speed to insure best performance. Like trying to read a sign as you go 100mph down the road versus 35.

Anyway, enough lead up. Here's my video...

[youtu.be]



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2012 06:07AM by critterhunter.

Looks good and accurate to me. Same experience I have with my GT, and I've played with it a LOT both inland and on the beach. I've actually pulled silver dimes out STUCK in rust to a nail just like the one you are using. I love my GT on the beach.

(I found a picture of one I took a snapshot of. I think this turned to to be a silver dime, as you can see, you can't tell until the electrolysis works its magic. This nail looks galvanized, but a rusty nail is a great mask any way you look at it. I did not find it this position in the hole. I can't say for sure how, but I remember it was not near the surface.)

)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2012 12:04AM by Gary in Daytona.

Gary........ I have a few of those......... and use them for show-n-tell and demonstration purposes.

Well, thanks for the information and the longest title in the history of the forum here .

It is interesting what you say regarding a very tight or straight DD coil field. It makes sense. The closer/tighter you can make the two halves the better chance, I would think, the machine has a test like this. I wonder how much recovery speed can aid in this test? I would think a lot. I now wonder if the CTX's coil is any tighter than the E-Tracs or if it's just a repackage with the additional chip features. I've mentioned it before and it is worth restating for those that missed it: The CTX pulled a lot more coins from this one hard hit area with LOWER ground mineralization than the surrounding area. In that surrounding area, I pulled just a few more coin. The CTX also appears better than the E-Trac with coins on edge and closer to iron.

BTW - The CTX failed the test, clearly. Don't let the falses fool you. I think it really shines in the ground. And I'm not touting the machine - yes, the performance apears great thus far, but I'm still not happy with the weight and bulkiness, though the balance is nice. Again, Dave J, are you listening - we want that new light CZ!

I'm not at all familiar with the sounds of the Sovereign GT, obviously it doesn't beep! Sounded like a TR machine or the like. I was hoping you would say something during your video as I think many of us don't know that machine, but thanks anyway for doing the video.

Just for comparisons sake, the Rutus Jupiter absolutely tore things up on this test: [www.youtube.com]

Thx Critter,
Albert

Oh come on now, I've posted thread titles much longer than this one. :') What can I say? I always felt the devil was in the details and enjoy reading more than just the simple 'look what this did" kind of stuff. Since I didn't narate the video, I just now a few minutes ago finished re-working it some more with more content. After I had first posted it I later went back and added some quick short notes, but just now finished re-working the entire video with more content and even a couple of pauses and such so people can read about what they are about to see and how the detection field is overcoming the masking, but more importantly also about what a detection field CAN'T do as well.

The video editing controls of youtube are very intuitive. I was able to figure things out without having to resort to reading any how to help guide on the stuff. I'm pretty impressed with what youtube puts at your disposal for video editing and how slick/fast/and easy it is for even a complete video editing novice like me to jump right in and start manipulating stuff. Don't know why I took so long to give it a try. Easy as pie. Far easier than I thought possible to do things with video.

Yep, I did notice in your video that there seemed to be some confusion as to if the nail was sounding off or if it was the coin, as that particular nail seems to have very close coin like qualities. Probably why you dug it in the first place I would guess? Any machine will get completely fooled on certain rusty old nails. Just the nature of what detectors can and can't do. What struck me most about the tweaking on the CTX was there were certain settings were results were very different than with others.

That's one of the things that drives me crazy with too many computer controls. It ruins my hunt always wondering if this should be set to that and such. But I guess the diversity is there should you need it in the odd situation. What I'd like to see is another high performance machine come out with just enough computer controls to get the job done such as along the lines of a QXT Pro. Well, maybe a few more tweaks then it had.

Perhaps something approaching the diversity of controls of the Explorer but for me that's already getting borderline in how much I want to tweak and worry about. Still miss my Explorers though, so #4 will be added to my line up of machines sooner or later here. Now that there's a variety of excelent "everyday use" aftermarket coils for the Explorer that are far better than the the stock 10" coils I was stuck with using, I can see some possibilities there in improving the performance in my soil. The used prices on Explorers these days are just too insanely low to pass up. I can't understand why, because many (like me) do prefer the Explorer's VDI layout and the audio on silver at depth over the Etrac, and I've heard some say the depth and even separation between them when using the same coil is pretty much a toss up when they are compared head to head on undug targets in the field.

As to your remark about the Sovereign's audio in the video, the audio of the Sovereign using the built in speaker in no way does it justice. The speaker makes it sound harsh and gritty and no where near what it's like wearing headphones. If I had watched videos of it before owning one and heard that kind of sound coming out of it I would never have bought one. With headphones it's a completely different animal. It's smooth and rich like butter, and long and very complex in it's details. Almost like the best of the old analog units but with the numerous tone alerts of a Minelab. I can't overstate it enough, all the Sovereign videos I ever saw make the audio sound like a cat screaming at the top of it's lungs in the bottom of a garbage can. :') I should see if I can figure out how to plug the headphone jack directly into my pocket camcorder for far better audio recordings. If I can swing it with an ear plug as well there should be no issues with me hearing what the machine is doing as I film.

Thanks for posting me that link of the Jupiter because I remember you talking about that and wanted to watch it to refresh my memory and compare. When I get around to watching it later if I have any remarks I'll post them here.

One thing is I really wish I had a better close by testing spot because the EMI is outrageous where I did the video. The machine is almost never that unstable even when I'm hunting a yard. There must be about 5 or 6 wires criss crossing overhead where I was was filming. I should have played with the sensitivity more or switched to noise band 1 to see if I could get it to settle down some. Next video if I'm filming in the same spot I'll take more time messing with that.



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2012 08:41PM by critterhunter.

No time to watch much of that video right at the moment until later, but before I forget is that Jupiter using a DD coil? By the looks of the coil construction I'm guessing it's a DD but it still looks to be a bit of a hybrid coil design perhaps? Never seen one with exactly that kind of layout.

Good video test...

But try same test on sovereign in a north south sweep instead of a east west sweep and theres only a few detectors that are able to get the target...

I like the explorer's and etrac's and sovereigns..but when you really get into a site and start chasing masked goodies you will quickly find where they will lag...

but for park working,,, yard working and trying NOT to dig alot of trash and iron they are very effective...but are not able to unlock a site to it's fullest potential when iron abound's...

I have spent countless hours trying to get them to work spots that are dead yet take another type machine to same spot and find thing's again...

But thats RELIC hunting style retrieval and not possible in some spot's..But there is to many things I want to dig that they wont hear in the spot's I frequent..

Good video..
Keith



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2012 08:51PM by Keith Southern.

Just about any machine taken to a spot beat to death will yield more targets. Part of the reason is that different coils put out different eddy current patrens unique to them like a finger print. I'm not even talking about the shape of the field here, but the eddy currents that run through it. One coil's eddy currents may "hit" a masked or on edge coin better for some reason than another machine. That's why comparison of two machines on undug targets that both found first is important to gauge abilities. If you just rely on finding targets with one machine only and checking them with the other you may very well find targets the other machine can't hit as well, but the reverse can be true if the other machine is used first to mark targets for comparison.

What kind of coil were you using on the Sovereign. Many different coils came stock on the various models, and some were much better than others.

Yes, if you read my commentary in the video the nature of DD detection fields means it's much easier to see a target when the nail is parallel to the DD line and not 90 degrees to it. That's easily overcome by gridding a site from two directions 90 degrees to each other.

My main point was to illistrate that it's for the most part impossible for a coil's field to see two targets at once until the other target (the shallower one) is completely out of the field. First signal a field hits it warps and bends around like a moth attracted to a flame. The only time two targets can be seen together is when they are at the same depth and very close if not touching. Then it's possible to both be washed in the field at the same time if the coil is in just the right spot, but when that happens non-ferrous targets are "one" and there is no way for the field to tell you it's two targets. The only thing I've read where it's possible to separate to signals in the field at once is when one is ferrous, because a detection field can tell you ferrous/non-ferrous qualities of a signal, but it still doesn't know it's two targets, just that there is a non-ferrous aspect to the signal.

I've dug my coins in trash or iron with the GT than any machine I ever owned, super fast or not. Part of that is the quality stock 10" Tornado, part is now the 12x10, but a large part I give credit to the unique and legendary Iron Mask feature that seems unique in it's own ways to the BBS Minelabs.

I commend you for your passion critterhunter,,,

And if it was that easy to grid a site and then go 90 degree's ...but we know thats not really the case....nothings on a grid ...theres 360 degree's and some target will only hit on the 255 degree sweep or whatever else it may be...

all these videos show is abilities.....it does not replicate what's in the ground....if everything was laid out like it was in the test it would be easy...but it's not is it

The videos show if you can get it to do this in the air there's a better chance to get it to do it in the ground...but if you can get one to do it on the 90 theres even a better chance to get a target in the nail jambalya...


We are looking for better chances to get the target but to get a surface replicated test in the ground is going to be rare...

If the sovereign works for you thats all that matters in my book...

Good Video
Keith

Earthmansurfer, just got around to watching that Jupiter video. Good video there! I like the text displays you put on there and am wondering if that type of text can be done via Youtubes online editing or did you do it on your own software? Anyway, yea...That Jupiter was nailing it good. I think the GT was doing just as good but hard to tell with the outrageous EMI from the power lines about 10 or 12 feet right over had where I did the testing. I'm going to re-do the elevated nail over coin test in a low EMI area and post another video on that so we can see just how easily it's sounding off without all the EMI chatter going on. Seems it was sounding off just as easily as it was on the Jupiter but a low EMI re-test will show that more clearly one way or the other. I'll also do the 90 degree angle test, but I know from experience with many machines that it's not an easy test to pass. Can't remember how the GT faired at that as it's been a few years since I did that test goofing off in the garage while testing a few other things. I'm more concerned about the parallel DD line test than anything else, because that kind of masking can be overcome by gridding from a few different directions if you really want to work a spot hard and overcome as much masking as possible.

That Jupiter...I take it it's a "foreign" machine? Never really seen much on it before. I like the LCD screen because I'm fond of those having used a QXT/Pro for many years. They tend not to take a lot of processing to display things on so they don't suffer from software lag like on other machines with more "exotic" displays. Also very low in power consumption. Nothing fancy but they get the job done. Which is one reason why I'm not a big fan of color screens. Harder to see the colors and screen in some light and power hungry, or at least more so than a black and white screen.