FISHER, OR ANY METAL DETECTOR MANUFACTURER THATS WILLING TO CHANGE

FISHER, OR ANY METAL DETECTOR MANUFACTURER THATS WILLING TO CHANGE.....do not rush to release thinking "we gotta get this on the market, others are passing us by". i do not want a few more bells and whistles or tweaks. i'm looking for and willing to wait on a new groundbreaking, gamechanging, totally new machine. there are 25 year old detectors out there that can equal or even far surpass what is being offered today. the coil design of the t2/f75 was great, the boost process great, the speed of the f-series great as well,but i think we have pretty much squeezed as much juice out of that orange(vlf/electromagnetic design) as possible.

an old aquastar II pulse induction machine can achieve a pulse delay of 8us and find tiny gold in a wet salt environment that no other modern detector can even dream of , tell me there's not a market for that kind of performance!!!!

we cannot positively id a bottlecap or be sure we are detecting a gold target vs a piece of foil,pulltab,screwcap etc: whats the problem, i guess its the principle/method of detection by conductivity? like i said before, its time to move away from vlf technology and completely change the game.

the phrase "build it and they will come" could be replaced by ...."we are in line waiting at your doorstep for something truly new"!!

i am primarily a beachhunter so i hope this new machine will be designed for that(the new goldrush) but the point is, give us something totally new.......please!
chuck.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2012 03:23PM by seeker41.

This might be sounding like a pipe dream but a hybrid type circuit perhaps;VLF/PI. Flip a switch and change VLF operation to a PI operation and switch out the coil.Box would have to be hip mountable probally because of the many circuits and such inside. Even doable?I like to relic hunt and Im looking for shear depth but not necessary a fast unmasker.Do not need a meter also.But for the guys that hunt by meter id is have some kind of full info meter/ module available option to plug in if so desired. I think treasure baron offered plug ins/ modules in the early 90s.Or can there be a switch to just turn off id meter and rely on tone id and punch down deep if one wants to?Amphibian style would be a big plus also.Maybe this would cover the coinhunters,relic guys and gold hunters perhaps.The European countries are really coming out with some good detectors.I hope the american manufactures are fully disecting these machines and taking notes.Steve

I was actually looking to see if I could find an Aquastar recently. It is kind of annoying to know something like that has been built but basically is almost impossible to get. The excuse is production like manufacturing can't do what a guy building stuff by hand can. I look at my iPhone and know that is not true. It all boils down to market size and economics.

Most of the problem seems to boil down to being able to reliably build coils within certain tolerances economically. What's up with that?

I am sorry to say that "good enough" sells. Sells real well actually. It amazes me what most people consider to be the best in terms of performance on most forums.

Steve Herschbach
Prospecting Since 1972 at DetectorProspector.com

Steve's Mining Journal - - Gold Prospecting & Metal Detecting "How To" Guides - - Equipment Information & Reviews - - Public Gold Prospecting & Metal Detecting Sites - - Gold Mining Claims For Sale or Lease - - Steve's Guide to Gold Nugget Detectors



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2013 05:22PM by Steve Herschbach.

There is a VLF/PI hybrid machine commercially available. A Geotech1 user called Mrand makes one.
[www.geotech1.com]
And there's several patents on the subject, here's one:
[www.google.com]

steve, its not kind of annoying its actually inexcusable!! and a untapped market of tremendous proportions!!!!! how many gold chains, gold earrings are littering the wetsand that have been lost for decades that are undetectable?
chuck.

glasartisan, dave j. once built a vlf/pi combo prototype but the dealers did not like it!!!!! i think that would sell very well!
chuck.

Personally... I'd like to see Fisher reinvent the wheel and bring back the solid build and quality of the old CZ6A without all of the cost cutting measures of today. I'm not talking about a newer computerized system like the F75... just the old analog, knob type system of the past. To me todays metal detectors offer way too many options and there are too few detectorists who will ge the full benefit of all of the options. In short, build me a detector that will give me ease of use, quality in the build, and execellent wokmanship in the tuning so that all detectors coming off of the line are equal.

How about, you trigger a switch and the VLF coil cuts out and a small ground pen. radar kicks in, you X the target and the data is then processed to provide a 3 dimensional image of what is there.

Seeker.... if i rememeber that story Dave J. built a PI and tried to sell it to his boss... simple but effective. Didnt fly.... Fisher still dont do PIs. If you cant do a better product just dont do it or play follower the leader appears to be the mind set. I believe Tom is right .... another Eric Foster type working out of his garage is going to reinvent the wheel. There appears to be great interest from overseas willing to take the chance..... but is it going to be repackaging?

Dew

Hi NEBechcomber,

"In short, build me a detector that will give me ease of use, quality in the build, and execellent wokmanship in the tuning so that all detectors coming off of the line are equal"

I am pretty sure Dave would point you at a G2 or Gold Bug Pro and tell you that is what he is trying to do. I hear you, but if you want analog you better start shopping used. Me, I am happy to see 5 pound control boxes become a thing of the past. Still too many heavy detectors on the market.

Steve Herschbach
Prospecting Since 1972 at DetectorProspector.com

Steve's Mining Journal - - Gold Prospecting & Metal Detecting "How To" Guides - - Equipment Information & Reviews - - Public Gold Prospecting & Metal Detecting Sites - - Gold Mining Claims For Sale or Lease - - Steve's Guide to Gold Nugget Detectors



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2013 05:24PM by Steve Herschbach.

Quote:"excellent workmanship in the tuning so that all detectors coming off of the line are equal"
This is the benefit of a DSP microcontroller, such as used in the F75/T2. Other than coil assembly/tuning (which could possibly be improved, it's just a matter of money) there is nothing to adjust in the control unit apart from the 'master ground balance' in these machines.

NO EXCUSES!!! ill say it again, 25-30 year old designs that match or surpass todays available "high tech" detectors.

a company would do extremely well/ have a industry leading detector regarding performance and sales BY AN INCREDIBLE MARGIN just to match or exceed the abilities of a aquastar II. the demand is there for that and totally new ways of detecting as well!
chuck.

Likely will get another 30 years of further vlf tweaking...all the while there will be "testers" to proclaim how much better they are than what
we already have....sound familiar?

What we need is a PI with disc. With todays computing power, if disc could somehow tie into the ground balance setting we would have all kinds of depth. The potential with all the coil possibilities in unlimited.

HH
Fred

I have been detecting 40+ years and the last big leap in detectors was adding discrimination . The boxes are smaller now and anything new is just a repackage .

pi with disc would be good, pi capable of 6,7,or 8us would be amazing!something that detects objects by density would be mindblowing!!!!!
chuck

I've been preaching this for years. Glad to see 'others' chime in.

I ask the Mfr'ing 'trigger' question: Would it not be profitable to build a insanely deep all-metal wet salt unit....... with no meter, no ID. Just simply K.I.S.S. theory. Easily do'able. Sure...... it would not target the 'general masses' as a general purpose detector; yet, if you look at the surf & sand///beach & water forums...... they far out-number (by sheer volume) all other forums. This is to say.... there's a lot of beach hunters. I think 'demand' would quantify.

I have a CZ-3D that is exceptionally deep (deepest one that has ever come across my bench)........... and it's a FTP CZ-3D; whereby the all-metal/auto-tune mode is the deepest I have ever seen a CZ present. The ID mode is fairly weak; yet the auto-tune mode is extremely hot. I would like to see this 'standardized' in all CZ's. This is my 'back-up unit to the AquaStar-II.

Chuck........... anything below approx 8uS......... and the wet salt becomes a big target.

I have much more to say........... much more concepts to share; yet.......... out of time!

"Chuck........... anything below approx 8uS......... and the wet salt becomes a big target.

I have much more to say........... much more concepts to share; yet.......... out of time!"

thanks tom, im not very familiar technically with the delay setting or whats technically feasible. i think i understand that something around 6 or 7us would just see the salt content of the water or wetsand but maybe a really good/fast microprocessor and software could distinguish between a ring or salt? i would be ecstatic just to to achieve 8us.

yes, the market is more than there for a super deep machine with no bells and whistles that will be sensitive to gold!!!! a manufacturer could build one for gold rings and for tiny gold completely ignoring coins and they both would sell like crazy even though they are not general purpose machines. the demand is absolutely there(the new gold rush).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2012 06:36PM by seeker41.

Chuck....... I can 'sense' your frustration.......... and understand your frustration. Other folks have the same frustration. I too....... have the same frustration. (((To be read as: opportunity))). And then there are those of whom do not have this frustration....... as they simply do not know what (and how much) they are missing (not detecting). In any case........... it is a common error for a metal detector Mfr "market analyst" to miscalculate just how big the actual 'demand' of such a market truly is. This is a all-too-easy error to make. This incorrect market measurement results in quantification/qualification/justification/rationalization of a "no build" scenario. Then...... someone like Blisstool (for example) comes out with a unit that 'might' be able to detect gold chains in wet salt (and other tiny gold targets in wet salt) in a useable fashion.......... subsequently resulting in a flurry of web traffic..... and a glimmer of 'hope' , wishfulness, and 'dream-come-true' nirvana status. Blisstool may have a couple of (small) errors to correct..... in order for this truism to come to fruition. (((and Blisstool is just one example))). Subsequently........ the other Mfr's rationalize and justify their 'no build' conclusion even further. . . . . solidifying an already existing error/miscalculation.
Then............... finally...................... one day (someone like Blisstool..... or whomever) corrects the small errors............... and "releases" a product that "revolutionizes" (((turns the world up-side-down))) the current mindset and the way we hunt............. with a new epiphany-conceptualization 'sweep-the-markets' revolutionary resultant. Then................... the rest of the Mfr's are wondering 'how' they were blindsided....... and how this could have ever happened. You should read the (paradigm shift) story about Xerox..... with its initial inception.... and the initial difficulties thereof........... as this is exactly what happened. And there are MANY other exacting examples. Joel Barker most eloquently put this into the correct order-of-magnitude realization/presentation.

I too......... have concepts (some even being fully functioning/validated prototypes) whereby Mfr's "just don't have the time" and/or don't think there is a market for it.............. when............... on the contrary............. I have already performed the market measurements. Strange/unique/fascinating world we live in.

Out of time again!

Let's sum up the subject by saying that the reason for America's lack of detector advancement is that most manufactures run close margins and extra R&D expenditures, in a down economy, with a four-year forecast of pending financial disaster, spearheaded by economically stupid, special-interest beholden, amoral partisan hacks, is a foolish business model and a losing gamble. Businesses are hoping at best to "survive" the next four years; government theft through income redistribution will only exasperate job loses and put struggling businesses into bankruptcy and stifle any hope of creativity and new developments. Pile on a flood of new regulations and Obama-care and we have the death of the American small business. The idea of pouring money into a new design is probably the last thing on any board of directors' or CEO's mind. Elections have consequences - this is one of them.

It appears that it will continue to be the small entrepreneur, outside America, that can make the design advancements for the foreseeable future.

the GERMANS have designed and built a new UWB radar chip that runs at a few $ , hey cant they uitilise that ?

Johnnyanglo, you might or might not be surprised at the number of small businessmen I know (and I am one) that are giving up since the last elections. Doors are closing, equipment auctioned off and assets and owners are moving overseas. I'm going to be shocked if I survive the next six months.

On to other things. While I saw little news of it among the forums Minelab did show a handheld combined ground penetrating radar / VLF detector for demining work at a military trade show in Europe I believe about six months ago. Modern nonmetal mines have very little metal and are tricky to find consistently. Maybe one day this will trickle over to the rec side.

tom, yes i am frustrated and hopeful! the purpose of starting this thread was to hopefully plant a seed of hope and a thought of "maybe there is a untapped market we have been overlooking" or "lets go ahead and give this another look" into any detector manufactuers or design engineers heads that may be watching/reading this forum. if only they realized the need and demand for a superdeep or supersensitive gold machine is exactly where we should concentrate our efforts(the new gold rush). like you said earlier, it does not need to have vid or tid just great depth or sens.
chuck.

whites has the data and rights to eric fosters aquastar II, correct? why would someone have the knowledge on how to build a pulse machine capable of 8us and not use it!!!!

whites, the market/demand/untapped gold is here now!!!
chuck

Yes....... the TDI is Eric Foster AquaStar-II/GoldScan-5 based.

I don't believe White's can "assembly-line" build 12uS (or better) coils. Right now....... this is a one-at-a-time ....... build by hand 'only'..... procedure. Should this issue be mitigated/ameliorated.......... or completely resolved............... it would open up a completely new (unknown) world.

"I don't believe White's can "assembly-line" build 12uS (or better) coils. Right now....... this is a one-at-a-time ....... build by hand 'only'..... procedure. Should this issue be mitigated/ameliorated.......... or completely resolved............... it would open up a completely new (unknown) world."

can be done!! "where there's a will there's a way" , but is the "will" there?...... it should be, many that know of the aquastars/goldscan 5's capabilities are waiting for such a machine and if whites would decide that now is the time to put the effort into building the coils we would jump at the chance to buy one!

whites,
are you aware of the aquastar II/golscan5's/early whites tdi's(goldscan 5's in a whites package) capabilities????? are you aware of the items(thin gold chains, tiny gold earrings and tiny gold rings) that are undetectable or detectable at far less depth by all machines presently manufactured? using information/data/detector and coil design that you have, you could build a machine that no other detector manufacturer has? the market for such a machine may not have been there 10-15 years ago but its here now!!!! a response from whites would be greatly appreciated!
chuck.

What technically prevents a sub 12uS coil from being built: materials or process?. If you can build one... then you can build two... then you can build twenty.

It seems a manufacturer could still make a profit with a 90% failure rate if priced accordingly.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2012 11:59AM by go-rebels.

Right on target.

It is the 'Want'... the 'Will' ... to build such a coil.......................... coupled with 'seeing' the market numbers/demands to verify it is a worthy cause.

Then........... once that is achieved; yes, there is a (small) challenge of fairly tight inductive and capacitive parameters to adhere..... whilst building coils.

I believe Mr. Bill told me it took 4 people to assemble that TDI coil and it was costing them a ton to produce, but they did it electronicly now. That coil has to be 10uS doesnt it because the TDI is a 10uS machine. You would think with the demand for these gold machines being so high they cant produce them fast enough and the increased demand for water machines.... nows the time. Couldnt get the companies to see beach hunting as anything more than change hunting with no market....... i hope they see it a little different now.

Dew

As with most detectorists.......... when I go to the beach to detect............ I could care less about finding quarters and pennies. (((Sometimes.... I wish coins were banned from the beaches!!!))) I'm (we're) there for the jewelry losses.

If only the number................. the volume............... of Minelab Excal sales were publicly posted!

((( And you wonder 'why' it is specifically Minelab that also builds $5000.00 units )))

agreed tom!!!! coins are interruptions/ annoyances in my search for gold!

is there a method or detector design(even though it is not produced yet) that would allow one to hunt for targets according to there density? that would be a true and exact method of detecting only gold items, correct?
chuck.