Gold Ring - masked by surface Iron - 4 machine test

I've often referred to Tom's treatise on "ferrous masking" when explaining how a metal detector works to many people...It is one of the best thesis and really opened my eyes to the subject...

This video is a great example of how a simple piece of surface iron can effect the signal of an 8" deep target about 5" off to the side:

[www.youtube.com]

When the ground allows we are going to do a more extensive test of iron masking (and different machine unmasking abilities) at different depths and at different distances from a non-ferrous target..

This video is posted inside one of the other threads but I thought it deserved it's own topic...

Sorry but this is not a fair test ! you was swinging the gold further away from the iron than the rest allowing the signal to come through ,that is bias

I am watching the video and don't see the bias you are talking about brett. I don't think whoever shot the video meant it other then one aspect of how iron can mask. He had the iron on the surface, which would create a bigger masking area compared to if it was deep next to the ring.

Funny...never saw this as a test per say...but more illustration of concept.

Well done Barry and thanks for taking the time.

Randy.

I've got to agree this test is biased toward the Vista Gold. You had the other machines leading edge of the coil at least an inch or inch and a half closer to the iron than than you swung the tip of the coil on the Vista Gold.

Thanks Barry, for all the varied testing you take the time to share with us.

thanks john i knew i could see it ,i think these tests are great and the effort people make to test new machines is awesome, just need the tests to be fair , I'm looking for a machine at the moment and im stuck weather to have a vista and a nokta velox 1

Now that's the correct way to do a proper separation test, with the target lower than the iron. Even just an inch or two lower makes all the difference. You also walked around the target to 90 degrees which is very important.

It looked pretty fair to me. Sure, maybe if you kept playing around with it you might have gotten a squeak out of the other machines but overall it was fairly clear to me that the Vista Gold got a best signal.

Well done. Can't wait to test the Gold myself.

That is an interesting video. I don’t know much about the other detectors, or for that fact, the Minelab CTX3030, but the E-trac detects the strongest, non-discriminated signal when the Trash Density is set to “High”, and you have iron discriminated out (just several lines of discrimination at the bottom of the screen should work). But using an all-metal pattern should pick up the iron a couple of inches away because iron has a very high inductance, and would probably be the strongest signal.

With a simple iron discrimination pattern and Trash Density set to “High”, detecting a target beneath iron with the E-trac might be possible at the edge of the discrimination null. The shallow iron should to be located a couple of inches in front of the tip of the coil. Slowly backing away from the iron while sweeping until the null from the iron stops. At that point, the target might be detectable. Working “around” an iron discrimination null with the E-trac is the only way that I know to detect a non-ferrous target several inches beneath iron.

Here’s an exaggerated picture.



Detecting inside of points “a” and “b” nulls the E-trac because of the iron discrimination pattern. At the outside edge of “b”, the detector might be able to pick up the target.

What would have been nice to see in the video would have been to make a line in the sand where you got a good repeatable signal with the Vista Gold. Then use that line as a reference point with the other detectors. Sweeping each detector starting from that line, then working slowly forward and backward from that line. Also what would be nice to see if those who use the other detectors input what settings and techniques they use to locate deeper targets near shallow iron. Different detectors should require different settings and techniques to locate targets under adverse conditions.

But overall, that is a very good video idea. Locating deep targets around shallow iron is very desired. Who knows what multitude of old coins and jewelry are hidden beneath shallow nails.

Detecting since Feb, 2010
E-trac with 18"x15" SEF, 13" Ultimate coil, Pro coil, Minelab 8" coil, 4.5"x7" SEF, Sunray target probe
CTX3030 with 17"x13" DD coil, 11" DD coil

That's why I wont do head to head comparison test....

lay a normal size nail down and nothing hears that target..

Laws of physics all detector adhere to...

The clear advantage the GOLD has is it hits the target very hard with gusto...the DEUS even when centered up better would be very weak on that target...

the XP's do not have a BOOST mode this is where the clear advanatge comes from with the VISTA's...

The Vista GOLD will unmask as well as the DEUS and the GMP tonal wise maybe a tad better..the advantage is the extra power the xp's do not posses...

Heres what the clear advantge is of the GOLD especially...it unmask like a XP but has more power and less build quality...

thats the major points...

The Vista's are deep the Vista's are world class iron unmasker's that's what they do..
Keith

Hello everyone. First of all - I was there and this wasn't done to show a bias - it was actually enlightening for me to see the effect surface iron has to a buried object...

NOW.....was a ruler used and was a "fine line drawn in the sand" for each machine to get to that exact spot to show their reactivity....NO. it really wasn't done that accurately.
I do see at 7:45 where the Vista Gold clearly shows the spot where the Gold target comes thru.
At 8:45 the Blisstool works almost that exact spot too and no good response to the buried target.
At 9:20 the Deus tries at about the same point as well as the CTX at 10:12 doing it about the same...

Were there times when the Vista Gold was pulled to the left to bring out the ring's signal just to show the point of the illustration....I can see that...but nothing was done to trick or fool.

We will do it again.

Next time we will use the Vista Gold and get as close to the nail as we can while still getting the non-ferrous tone. We will mark that spot with a line or a ribbon.
We'll take each of the other machines (maybe include some others too) and work to that line to see if they can get even closer to the nail and still have a non-ferrous target at depth come through.

OK?? Thanks.

Eye opening video. thanks. Maybe put a marker on the surface above the coin, that may help reference also. Cant wait to try the gold myself!

You are a patient man Barry....

Digs-allot, nice diagram and explanation. Would be interesting to see.

All of the targets that I have passed over, due to masking. Makes me wonder how to improve my odds!

Dig everything.

One very good reason why you need to hunt sights from multiple angles

Great video with eye opening results Barry. Glad you will redo the test to make everyone as happy as you can with the test. You are a very patient man. I can hardly wait for my Vista Gold to get here to hit some of my favorite relic spots to see how much I and everyone else has walked over for the last 40 yearsYes, everyone can get more out of their particular machines as they learn the nuances of that particular machine with time spent using it and their particular field mineralization settings so that they can squeeze a little more out of that machine. However the Vista Gold with its signal boost and iron volumn control is going to be a very special machine in iron infested areas...Stuart

It was very interesting to learn that other detectors experience similar difficulties with iron as the E-trac when sweeping directly over shallow iron when the target is several inches deeper. As Squarenail_cache indicated, searching locations from multiple angles might locate that sweet spot where a target might be detected near iron.

Whenever I get a possible target near iron, usually, I have to keep the front tip of the coil facing the iron, and back away slowly while sweeping until you get a repeatable signal, and then try to determine if it’s a valid target, or the infamous rusty iron false signal. But that usually occurs if the target is deeper, or the iron is large.

Your video indicates you need to use similar techniques with other detectors. I’m surprised that other detectorists haven’t indicated the techniques and settings that they use under similar circumstances, because other detectorists can learn such techniques and settings.

You’ve taken the time to make a good detector comparison video, and it draws up controversy. And now you feel pressured into making another video. I can only try to understand how you must feel.

Thanks for the video(s).

Detecting since Feb, 2010
E-trac with 18"x15" SEF, 13" Ultimate coil, Pro coil, Minelab 8" coil, 4.5"x7" SEF, Sunray target probe
CTX3030 with 17"x13" DD coil, 11" DD coil

Here is a follow-up because the sand video was deemed not accurate enough.........

[www.youtube.com]


brett27 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry but this is not a fair test ! you was
> swinging the gold further away from the iron than
> the rest allowing the signal to come through ,that
> is bias

Digs_alot-"You’ve taken the time to make a good detector comparison video, and it draws up controversy. And now you feel pressured into making another video. I can only try to understand how you must feel. "

Exactly, and he SELLS detectors.

Well done follow up video Barry.

True - and every video we do is 1,000% accurate and honest...you should get the same exact results doing it your self.

Aaron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Digs_alot-"You’ve taken the time to make a good
> detector comparison video, and it draws up
> controversy. And now you feel pressured into
> making another video. I can only try to understand
> how you must feel. "
>
> Exactly, and he SELLS detectors.

Barryny wrote: True - and every video we do is 1,000% accurate and honest...you should get the same exact results doing it your self.

Is it?

So all these videos your posting Barry, are they for educational purposes, like all the non-dealer members post, or are they for financial gain?

Yep, I felt like I was in a used car lot for some reason. Wonder what the flavor will be next week

I appreciate the tests that are being shared here. I looked at the xp last fall, as I liked the speed and seperation capabilities of that unit. But I could not fit the price into my budget. The vistas have some of the same excellent capabilities of the xp's, and the price is right. For me, its a service. Hopefully when version 3 comes out on the deus, you will have something you xp owners can feel good about. Happy hunting to all.

You skipped the CTX while the iron was close, swinging at the end of your last video.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2013 02:53AM by Huntindog1.

You're going to chase him away.........benefit of the doubt.........

So long as the video is done in an honest and fair manner what difference does it make if the person doing the video is a dealer or not. If he shows his brand in a favorable light in his test and it is done correctly then we all learn from the experience. If he sells more detectors because of honest advertising then that is great. If you disagree with the results then post a video and the rest of us learn from your efforts. Win, win for all readers on this forum. Keith is not a dealer and his videos are just as immpressive on the Vistas and, to me in particular, the Vista Gold.

Possum mo wrote: "For me, its a service. Hopefully when version 3 comes out on the deus, you will have something you xp owners can feel good about."

Possum what "service" are you referring too? And hold on a minute brother, I think you have it backwards my friend. Shouldn't we XP owners be saying that to you DeepTech guys? After all the XP machines have already proven themselves for years now in Europe and over here.

Mine hasn't let me down yet and I STILL feel reeeel good about it.

I

Hi,,,No offense to anyone but this site is starting to be like one big infomercial...It's starting to lose it's educational appeal and taking a spiraling tumble downwards....Could it just be me? Or maybe it could be the fact that I only have a dial up connection, so there's no way I can watch any videos.....I'm just trying to absorb some new ideas and further my thought process.....JJ