Gold Ring - masked by surface Iron - 4 machine test

Search and recovery wrote: "So long as the video is done in an honest and fair manner what difference does it make if the person doing the video is a dealer or not. If he shows his brand in a favorable light in his test and it is done correctly then we all learn from the experience. If he sells more detectors because of honest advertising then that is great. If you disagree with the results then post a video and the rest of us learn from your efforts. Win, win for all readers on this forum. Keith is not a dealer and his videos are just as immpressive on the Vistas and, to me in particular, the Vista Gold."

It makes a BIG difference because the dealer has a vested interest in the success of that machine. Would he likewise post that video if that machine failed the test, to educate us on that machines shortcomings?

Honest advertising?

What world do you live in?

And besides.....there is NOT supposed be anything of the sort on this forum.

Any member who is a DEALER, and promotes his products on the forum, like it or not has lost his "freedom of speech", meaning he CANNOT honestly say he is NOT 100% UNBIASED

Think about it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2013 03:42AM by Aaron.

Good test with the coin below iron. Thanks for your work and taking the time to do it.



Would have been great if the CTX3030 had been tested on the coin to iron sweep direction. My theory is that the CTX recovery speed has improved separating ability as compared to the E-Trac. Would be interesting to see the E-Trac performance too under the same testing conditions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2013 04:19AM by Johnnyanglo.

Jimmy, I must agree and comments from some others. And Aaaron you nailed it. It's been a long long time since I posted and really haven't much but I follow this forum. I'm just so stuck in corporate America-takes all my time. Keith's information is very very much appreciated- more than he might know. He spend's a lot of time/very considerate. But I think someone is taking advantage of his time (videos) and Tom's site here. That is not right. I read where Keith's videos are being included with the sale of a certain detector brand he has been testing and unbeknownst to him as confirmed by his replies by the individual reporting. Tom has advanced several warnings to this individual. Yes, Aaron "financial gain intenet". It's obvious.

No further comments but it burns me when these types of things go on. Maybe Tom should appoint a moderator. And the moderator have the power to "ban or edit" when appropriate.

But...But... this is a fabulous place.. freedom to speak out .. and out does come the truth.. Machine performance parameters ...Very very beneficial and hopefully the manufacturer reps read this forum..T.e.c.h.n.o.l.o.g.i.c.a.l. a.d.v.a.n.c.e.m.e.n.t. ....key for progress.

Steve

Aaron do you really think you or me for that matter are 100% unbiased in our opinions of the detectors that we own? I really do not care who posts a video so long as it is factual and fair. That is why we all come to this sight to advance our knowledge of detecting and the ability of the detectors that are available to us. I would like for all great detectors to be made in the U.S. and although we do have some really good detectors made here the facts are that many new detectors are coming from other countries that are breaking new ground. I am sorry if a dealer making a video and putting it on this sight upsets you, but it does not upset me as long as a level playing field is kept for all detectors. Again I have to say that Keith is the reason I like the possibilities of the Vista Gold. He has shown it to be a relly good machime with depth and target seperation abilities. Barrys' videos only enforce what we have already surmised from Keiths videos. You have your opinion and I have mine. That is all.

Whether my opinions are biased or not is irrelevant, the fact is, I am not promoting any products on this forum nor trying to profit from it. You either do not understand whats going on here, or are purposely pretending not too. You've been a member here for 1year now, and interestingly most of your posts are Vista related, any vested interest here? Hmmmm.

Did I say anything about U.S. manufacturing being a issue here? Hello?

You wrote: "Barry's videos only enforce what we have already surmised from Keith's videos"

Ok, so if that's true...... what do we need Barry, (the salesman) videos for?

The fact is, is that those of us that have been here for many years now have enjoyed coming to this forum because there has been one thing we could count on finding here and that was no-nonsense facts.

We came here because we got tiered of the politics at all the other forums, rules made/enforced by moderators regarding products and people that could not be discussed because they were not paid sponsors ect, ect.

This forum has no sponsors, and very few rules. Yet, a "member" has been taking advantage of the forum for self promotion even after being warned not once but 3 times! In response to these warnings this "member" has sent emails to Tom that contained threatening and vulgar language.

In the future you may find Tom pulling the plug on this site when he decides its no longer worth his time and aggravation!



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2013 12:22PM by Aaron.

I personally have learned more from this site and value the opionons of certain members "keith southern" "nasa tom" than i have all other sites combined. And i truly value their experience and unselfhiness in sharing their numerous efforts time and data with unbiased results. No matter the brand. But i am also smart enough to understand what others may be doing to self profit form others work. Just the reason why we should all use the great information provided on this site to make our own descision based on what we each see/believe

Aaron, my posts as of lately have been more about the Vista detectors because that is the main topic on this site for the last couple of weeks and the fact that I have ordered one and am looking forward to getting my hands on it and learning for myself what this machine is capable of on the sites that I hunt. I have no vested interest in any detector or particular company. My only purpose to come to this site is to learn as much as I can. So if this sight has a problem with a particular member as you say, Then they should deal with the issue at hand. I had no idea of the past problems. I apologize if I have stepped on your or any other members toes...Stuart

Biased or not, I think the main thing that is bothering some of you about Barry's videos is that he and Carter make them. If they had to they could easily hide behind the scenes and pay someone to narrate videos that look just like Keiths.

All these videos help sell detectors but they also help us the buyers make informed decisions. The videos have been very useful to me. Our criticizmsms point out flaws which hopefully helps to keep them more accurate and honest which inturn supplies us with better information.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2013 09:27AM by Badger in NH.

jimmyjiver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi,,,No offense to anyone but this site is
> starting to be like one big infomercial...It's
> starting to lose it's educational appeal and
> taking a spiraling tumble downwards....Could it
> just be me? Or maybe it could be the fact that I
> only have a dial up connection, so there's no way
> I can watch any videos.....I'm just trying to
> absorb some new ideas and further my thought
> process.....JJ
Bingo!

Aaron...Where are your videos showing real world examples of Tom's theory on the problem of iron masking?

And - I've seen your 25 posts about the Deus...do you sell them or do you just have the need to defend them? I have the Deus...owned it far longer than you and used it longer than you too..it's "good"...but it ain't the "greatest" thing since sliced bread...Do you want to meet up and we can go head to head on the Deus vs. the DeepTech??

We like to say "Different machines for different purposes"...we include that in every video...I wouldn't take a Deus to a salt water beach...nor would I take a DeepTech..

And Aaron - please tread very carefully with the "personal" comments and insinuations......let keep this about detecting and learning about various situations that cause problems for some machines and show where other machines can overcome those problems...

Aaron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Barryny wrote: True - and every video we do is
> 1,000% accurate and honest...you should get the
> same exact results doing it your self.
>
> Is it?
>
> So all these videos your posting Barry, are they
> for educational purposes, like all the non-dealer
> members post, or are they for financial gain?

People are indeed getting a buzz from those new Vista machines.
I've read the posts, watched the vids,.... pondered a bit, let it simmer on the backburner,....

I'd like to see a test where they go head to head with a few prospecting machines with same size coils.
Disc out the same iron trash, just till it breaks up the signal,.... stick a low conductor next to it.
Meassure and analyse.

I know what I can do with my gear, just wondering if they really are that special. Because they aren't coin shooters thats been mentioned more than a couple of times.

As a powertool dealer, I don't post comments on powertool forums, I don't film vids comparing machines,... it only leaves a certain part of my customers thinking:"He is trying to earn a living or fixing up a fast $."
I sell em, I fix em,... and I make sure my customers are the happiest most brand educated customers out there.

Out in the fields and woods is where my machines and educated customers make a difference. And that in turn earns me my honest $ and fuels my hobby!!
But who am I,... just a second generation Stihl nutcase.

HH
Johnb

Good points johnb

I don't have access to many other prospecting machines - would like to see the same tests...

Here is someone's post on another forum...the picture of the nugget..it was small. Not sure if these machines are true prospecting machines:

My Vista Gold arrived last night, unfortunately can't do a serious hunt until next weekend.
However, Did allot of air testing comparing the Gold against a T-2, MXT and AT-Gold.
Used both prospecting and disc mode on the T-2, MXT and AT-Gold, all maxed out on sensitivity with the Gold in bloost mode.
All fared close with the Vista Gold having an edge by an inch or two on coin size signals, except for lower conductive especially micro size targets the Gold had at least two more inches or more.
Check out the nugget below, the Gold hit that baby ay 4" inches while the others were between 1"-3" inches. The T-2 in all metal hit it at 3" inches, but in disc mode the T-2 barely hit it at 1" inch.
Keith was right, the Gold will excel with smaller lower conductive targets.


scoopjohnb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> People are indeed getting a buzz from those new
> Vista machines.
> I've read the posts, watched the vids,....
> pondered a bit, let it simmer on the
> backburner,....
>
> I'd like to see a test where they go head to head
> with a few prospecting machines with same size
> coils.
> Disc out the same iron trash, just till it breaks
> up the signal,.... stick a low conductor next to
> it.
> Meassure and analyse.
>
> I know what I can do with my gear, just wondering
> if they really are that special. Because they
> aren't coin shooters thats been mentioned more
> than a couple of times.
>
> As a powertool dealer, I don't post comments on
> powertool forums, I don't film vids comparing
> machines,... it only leaves a certain part of my
> customers thinking:"He is trying to earn a living
> or fixing up a fast $."
> I sell em, I fix em,... and I make sure my
> customers are the happiest most brand educated
> customers out there.
>
> Out in the fields and woods is where my machines
> and educated customers make a difference. And that
> in turn earns me my honest $ and fuels my hobby!!
> But who am I,... just a second generation Stihl
> nutcase.

*** It makes a BIG difference because the dealer has a vested interest in the success of that machine. Would he likewise post that video if that machine failed the test, to educate us on that machines shortcomings? ***

As far as I can tell all the detectors failed the test, in fact, that short video comparison test would take the edge off the enthusiasm for any of the tested detectors. Showing how lousy a detector is under real-world conditions would not qualify in my estimation as unfair promotion or bias.

I certainly don't want biased testing done - and if that is happening here then apparently I'm blind. As long as the test is done fairly then I, for one, have no problems - real comparative testing is always welcome. As far as I'm concerned I don't care if the testing is done by a dealer, a design engineer for the manufacturer, or the bloody CEO of the company - if the testing is fair. The goal is to discover truth - which this forum has historically been a stalwart promoter.

As far as bias - everyone is biased. The key is to be honest enough to put the bias away when performing head-to-head comparisons. Until there is evidence of tampering with tests or self-promotion for personal gain I'm in the camp that says keep the video testing coming.

Johnnyanglo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> *** It makes a BIG difference because the dealer
> has a vested interest in the success of that
> machine. Would he likewise post that video if that
> machine failed the test, to educate us on that
> machines shortcomings? ***
>
> As far as I can tell all the detectors failed the
> test, in fact, that short video comparison test
> would take the edge off the enthusiasm for any of
> the tested detectors. Showing how lousy a detector
> is under real-world conditions would not qualify
> in my estimation as unfair promotion or bias.
>
> I certainly don't want biased testing done - and
> if that is happening here then apparently I'm
> blind. As long as the test is done fairly then I,
> for one, have no problems - real comparative
> testing is always welcome. As far as I'm concerned
> I don't care if the testing is done by a dealer, a
> design engineer for the manufacturer, or the
> bloody CEO of the company - if the testing is
> fair. The goal is to discover truth - which this
> forum has historically been a stalwart promoter.
>
> As far as bias - everyone is biased. The key is to
> be honest enough to put the bias away when
> performing head-to-head comparisons. Until there
> is evidence of tampering with tests or
> self-promotion for personal gain I'm in the camp
> that says keep the video testing coming.

you saved me a lot of typing...100% agree

Wow, this place is out of control. I have not watched the video. It does not matter to me if Barry or anyone else is a dealer and does a comparison to any detector as long as it is a "scientific" comparison. Meaning all things being equal and the varibles removed to give you quality results. I am a Fisher dealer does that mean I can't post here anymore? Who cares! This is supposed to be fun guys! If Barry was dissing a specific detector and saying "Buy mine", then that would be wrong. Every unit on the market has pro's and con's, and their little niche that makes them good for one person over another in their area of the world.

I think you all need to lighten up a bit and show Tom some respect by not bickering. This cabin fever is killing us!!!

"Happy hunting" - Schultzie

Barry, I enjoyed both of those videos entirely.Very fair.No hard sell here.
Aaron and a few others I must say I am sadened to hear you say these are biased.I think you should be saying you are jealous of the fact that the Vistas outperformed the over priced Deus.Thats all that is really going on here.When the Blisstool was being tested by Barry and others I dont remmember the results of the Bliss over the other machines getting hammered to the degree that Barry is getting now.Come on people wake up and stop talking like you got a paper #sshole.Do you need to be reminded that Barry still does sell the Blisstool.And did it not fail the 2 tests that he did in the grand scheme of those test.And a few of you say that he has a vested interest in the machines sucess?Wow, he just killed his sales on the Bliss for failing the tests.Thats funny also, the Bliss failed but he still decided to show us along with the other detectors.I guess he still chose to post the video of his other horse in the race even though some of you say he wouldnt dare.Look people,HONESTY and INTEGRITY is all I ask for along with FAIRNESS.Barry and Carter went out of their way to achieve this.Nothing more nothing less.Now lets go out and have a better tommorow, Steve

Herein lies the problem:

When a (non-dealer) person/detectorist posts a video on a particular detector.......... it can be taken in objective & subjective content........... and possibly/probably with 'bias'. . . . due to pride, happiness, brand-familiarity....... etc. Not a problem. Welcome to being human.

When a dealer posts a video (with deliberately "seemingly" harmless intent) ........ and that video is a head-to-head comparison of Brand-X/unit-1 to "Vista". Brand-Y/unit-2 to "Vista". Brand-Z/unit-3 to "Vista". . . . . . and the dealer/Distrib is a "Vista" dealer............ there poses THE underlying ulterior motive: MONEY ( ie 'sales' ).

In the "Vista" dealers video: The "Vista" wins against Brand-X. The "Vista" wins against Brand-Y. The "Vista" wins against Brand-Z............ an even further order-of-magintude 'bias' for personal/financial/monetary gain is implicated....... by the dealer/Distrib.

This defiant/rebelious covert subversive fashion of marketing continuance on this forum......... is the very reason that undermines the fragile balance of honesty and freedom ......unto which is the very premise/basis of this forum..................... that I try so very hard to achieve and maintain. To the casual observer........ this is NOT easy to "see" . (((Until its too late))).

i think these people need removing ,their a BAD influence

There is another problem as well, with non-dealers posting videos and tests: They are easily bought out to manipulate their tests/findings in lue of special offers and such from manufacturers.

This I know because when I was doing my videos and became a more well known video guy on the forums...I received a proposition from a very well known US detector manufacturer's rep...who lay out a deal on the table for me. I turned the deal down. Basically what it consisted of, was that if I made their detectors look good on the forums...with finds, in my videos, etc...that I would be part of their team and would receive special benefits as part of the team...I.E. freebie accessories, and discounted offerings on detectors themselves...in some cases, depending on the amount of sales they were getting in direct coorilation to the promoting, freebie units. I turned it down...but I am well aware of others that were made the same offer that bought into it. Thus every time this company released a new detector, you would see a few people in particular on the forums, that would have the unit...go out in the field and make once in a life time finds...every other week or so. People followed into it like mindless sheep and still to this day, as detectorists are anxiously awaiting this manufacturers new detector release...you will find these people's finds in the magazine ads for their current detectors.

NASA-Tom Wrote:

>
> This defiant/rebelious covert subversive fashion
> of marketing continuance on this forum.........

Can't comment on "defiant/rebelious" but don't agree with "covert subversive" ,any regular member here knows Barry is a dealer/distributor of Deeptech and Blisstool ,he certainly made no secret of that !! ,if he wanted to be sneaky he could have used a false account or got his buddys or even employees to make boiler room posts talking up the machines on every forum .Instead he
just posted a few vids none of which seem false/dishonest to me. Sure I value Keith's vids more as he is independent/honest and
very sharp at analysing a detector but I don't see much to complain about from Barry's vids.

James1969 wrote: "if he wanted to be sneaky he could have used a false account or got his buddys or even employees to make boiler room posts talking up the machines on every forum"

How do you know he hasn't already?

For many of us, we filter out the BS and use only the useful information. We will also question things that don't seem right, and wait for the answer. If the answer isn't copacetic, then we draw our conclusions, or ask more questions until we file it under the BS or, the facts column. We do this day in and day out when conversing to our fellow man.

Subconsciously, we use more or less filtering with people, as we get to know them.

Foe me, Tom D earned zero filters...no BS to catch....he could probably sell or tell me anything and I'll believe it, for the most part. The same goes for a few others on this forum. The ones I'm not familiar with, get the benefit of the doubt.
It seems we all like the way the forum is handled and maintained. So if Tom D sees and deals with it in his way, I'm certain it will be fair for all.

Aaron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> James1969 wrote: "if he wanted to be sneaky he
> could have used a false account or got his buddys
> or even employees to make boiler room posts
> talking up the machines on every forum"
>
> How do you know he hasn't already?



Show me such a post ,provide the link for us all to see..........PROOF is what I am interested in.....not innuendo.....

Are you not the one who said "he could have..."

Again I ask: "how...do....you....know.....he.....hasn't?"

Do you know something we don't?

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Herein lies the problem:
>
> When a (non-dealer) person/detectorist posts a
> video on a particular detector.......... it can be
> taken in objective & subjective content...........
> and possibly/probably with 'bias'. . . . due to
> pride, happiness, brand-familiarity....... etc.
> Not a problem. Welcome to being human.
>
> When a dealer posts a video (with deliberately
> "seemingly" harmless intent) ........ and that
> video is a head-to-head comparison of
> Brand-X/unit-1 to "Vista". Brand-Y/unit-2 to
> "Vista". Brand-Z/unit-3 to "Vista". . . . . . and
> the dealer/Distrib is a "Vista" dealer............
> there poses THE underlying ulterior motive: MONEY
> ( ie 'sales' ).
>
> In the "Vista" dealers video: The "Vista" wins
> against Brand-X. The "Vista" wins against Brand-Y.
> The "Vista" wins against Brand-Z............ an
> even further order-of-magintude 'bias' for
> personal/financial/monetary gain is
> implicated....... by the dealer/Distrib.
>
> This defiant/rebelious covert subversive fashion
> of marketing continuance on this forum......... is
> the very reason that undermines the fragile
> balance of honesty and freedom ......unto which is
> the very premise/basis of this
> forum..................... that I try so very hard
> to achieve and maintain. To the casual
> observer........ this is NOT easy to "see" .
> (((Until its too late))).


Tom,
You are welcome to repeat these tests yourself; I think that would end all doubt. If the DeepTech is truly better in certain areas than the competition, why not demonstrate the truth? As long as the testing is objective and most importantly repeatable, there should not be an issue. Say the word and I will ask Barry to send you a DeepTech gold for your honest evaluation.
Carter

Kieth's word was good enough for me, even before barry's vids.

I think the most important message from the video is the general problem detectors have detecting desired targets located several inches below shallow iron, either directly below or adjacent to iron.

Learning the best ways to use your particular detector to locate, or attempt to locate such difficult targets would be very desirable. If you’ve invested a lot of detecting hours over years learning to use a particular detector, it can be difficult to take the time learning a completely new detector, regardless of comparison results. But if your in the market for a new detector, well, that’s a different story.

Once again, thanks for taking the time making the videos.

Detecting since Feb, 2010
E-trac with 18"x15" SEF, 13" Ultimate coil, Pro coil, Minelab 8" coil, 4.5"x7" SEF, Sunray target probe
CTX3030 with 17"x13" DD coil, 11" DD coil

I didn't like Iron, .... now I'm positive about that fact.

Getting the gold down below,... digging efficiency!

HH
Johnb

I thank yall for trusting my opinion on the Vista's...

And I dont want anyone to think I have made any videos or any post to mislead you in any way...

I get no gain from voicing my PERSONAL opinion...Except I like to post my finding's...I get a personal gain from that...

I never thought a test of a machine would lead to all this...LOL!!

but it is what it is...Sort of interesting on away..

I think the Vista especially GOLD will sell it self if given proper time to get into hunters hand's...I think this spring there will be some great find's unearthed maybe some gold coin's and rare button's...

Keith

Keith, I don't think you have to worry about your reputation here. I'm pretty sure everyone knows you are honest and hard working and are only sharing your knowledge. It was posts and videos from you that made me sure the Vista Gold was what I have wanted for a long time. Is it the detector to end all detectors? Of course not, but it sure works nicely for my needs.