CTX Test in Heavy Contaminated Soil

50 degrees IN Michigan on Dec. 23rd!?

Took the CTX to the old VA Hospital site I've been diggin off and on for the last few yrs this eve for 1.5 hrs to test it on deep fringe targets reading in iron range both visually and tonally.

I wasn't looking for any "specific" target/s --- the entire objective of the hunt was to see what non-ferrous targets I could find at depths of 8 inches and beyond.

The soil is heavily contaminated with iron, alum. and garbage from the past 130 yrs as it had a morgue & receiving building at one time, a storage building, and 2 different houses at one point over the course of that time not to mention the bums throwing liquor bottle caps, beer caps, etc. all over plus everyday joes/kids tossing whatever they feel like onto the grounds (approx. 2 acres)

Every one of these targets was 8 inches to 10 inches deep and did not read anywhere near like you would expect them to - both visually nor tonal wise.

In fact - to my surprise - every one of these targets read as iron VID and TID almost exclusively,

even the target trace feature did no good - it was splatter pattern all over the screen,

the only reason I dug any of these targets is because as I swept the coil - if I got a hit with even the slightest non ferrous chirp to start with - I stopped to investigate and IF I could get the target to hit with even just a blip of a good tone in any direction whatsoever - I then dug to see what it was.

Again - these are targets that read as complete junk/iron, constant grunting, splattered target trace, no repeatable tone at all, DEFINITELY not solid and #s in the 21/33 or 25/30 range/s that most guys would immediately write it off as iron/junk without any hesitation.

But - as I said - if there was even the slightest bit of a chirp in any direction that was not iron tone - I then dug and that's what each one of the these targets did/how they acted.

Anything even remotely worth digging at this site is very deep and heavily masked by tons of garbage & iron --- this is definitely one of the worst sites I've ever worked and a serious eye opener as to just how bad the depth relative to iron reading both VID and TID can be as well as targets being masked by junk can be too (and I've worked some doozies over the yrs) = believe me!

P.S.
not shown are 2 bottle caps, a pulltab, a tiny chunk of cut up brass, and an aluminum nail all found at the same depth ranges and all sounding/reading like iron too.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2016 05:36PM by MichiganRelicHunter.

Just curious what was your disc setting?? And I've got news for you. A 25 ferrous reading on either etrac or CTX isn't an iron signal. I have dug good silver targets that hit at the 27 line on etrac. If you read in Sabisch's Minelab book he states that targets can come in as low as the 27 on the ferrous line. I ran my etrac with disc open down to line 27 and yes dug 2 very nice finds (1845 dime and silver wedding ring) deep mind you in carpet of nails. One thing I noticed on both targets (both were only 2 way hits) is when sweeping the cursor would never dive down below the 27 ferrous line. And yes multiple nails were recovered when digging both targets.

tnsharpshooter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just curious what was your disc setting?? And
> I've got news for you. A 25 ferrous reading on
> either etrac or CTX isn't an iron signal. I have
> dug good silver targets that hit at the 27 line on
> etrac. If you read in Sabisch's Minelab book he
> states that targets can come in as low as the 27
> on the ferrous line. I ran my etrac with disc
> open down to line 27 and yes dug 2 very nice finds
> (1845 dime and silver wedding ring) deep mind you
> in carpet of nails. One thing I noticed on both
> targets (both were only 2 way hits) is when
> sweeping the cursor would never dive down below
> the 27 ferrous line. And yes multiple nails were
> recovered when digging both targets.

Wide open screen NO disc whatsoever - I don't hunt with disc at all EVER with an FBS machine (newbies do that)

I had an Etrac long before the CTX - I know that the #s CAN go that low and still be silver/etc but I don't rely on #s EVER either

it's the SOUND is mainly why I said MOST guys would pass the targets by and write them off as iron - I was only pointing out/stating the #s coming across the screen for reference - relying on #s is something newbies do too

these "hits" were no where near "2 way" - they weren't even "1 way" - they were broken at best and only hit one way SOMETIMES as a broken VERY weak BLIP

that's what I was trying to get across in my OP above but I guess I failed (my bad).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2014 01:50AM by MichiganRelicHunter.

No you didn't fail. A lot of folks don't realize the value of the ferrous reading when trying to decide to dig or not. I will admit the ferrous numbers on the CTX don't seem to be dragged down as much as etrac over a lot of deeper targets. The ferrous numbers are very helpful. No I wouldn't dig say 32-45 signal using minelab, but a signal that fluctuates and gives some repeating tone at times and the ole ferrous number refuses to take the dive on the screen to the iron range I'm digging every time. Take a small nail and sweep with your CTX. I'll bet you don't see a 25 ferrous number come up or 27 either. Lots of folks read these posts. Any and all good information to share will maybe help people make many more good finds.

Well done Wayne. Just goes to show what we are missing. I never ran disc on my etrac just like you stated it for newbies. There is a thread on another forum on masking. Some folks don't believe in targets being masked. Oh well more for the educateddetectorist. lol great job. Corey

If you get a chance take that Deus there at that site and see what it does. I bet it will be the same results. Corey. P.s. I have experiment with the v3i on these kinds of targets. M2 shield nickels were my finds and they were no deeper then 4 inches

Hi,,hey Wayne I hear ya on the 50 degree weather in Mi.....About 30 years ago we had a warm up around Christmas time....I managed to pull 21 silver dimes in about 4-6 hours they were mainly Roosevelt's with a few Merc's mixed in to boot...So the moral of the story is spending all that money does not really improve your odds when working this type of scenario?...Thanks for sharing this information and I totally agree on looking/relying on a screen to tell you what's in the ground is a no,no.....I'm very much in tune with the audio on my machines and understand their various nuances....Thanks and Happy Holidays....JJ

tnsharpshooter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No you didn't fail. A lot of folks don't realize
> the value of the ferrous reading when trying to
> decide to dig or not. I will admit the ferrous
> numbers on the CTX don't seem to be dragged down
> as much as etrac over a lot of deeper targets.
> The ferrous numbers are very helpful. No I
> wouldn't dig say 32-45 signal using minelab, but
> a signal that fluctuates and gives some repeating
> tone at times and the ole ferrous number refuses
> to take the dive on the screen to the iron range
> I'm digging every time. Take a small nail and
> sweep with your CTX. I'll bet you don't see a 25
> ferrous number come up or 27 either. Lots of
> folks read these posts. Any and all good
> information to share will maybe help people make
> many more good finds.


I hear what you're saying

But at the same time

You know as well as I do that MOST guys (especially new/er to the hobby/new to FBS machine guys) are looking for those classic 11/45 - 12/44 and 11/40 - 12/39 (or the like) type signals when using an Etrac/CTX while coin/silver hunting so if they see #s up in the 25/whatever range they pretty much automatically ignore that target and ESPECIALLY when they see those numbers combined with hearing nothing but iron grunts coming across while swinging over the target on 99% of the passes.

I didn't make this post to talk about other diggers or what they do/know or don't do/know though - I was only stating observations made during my short 1.5 hr hunt in the conditions I was encountering. Personally I don't care what anyone gathers from it or not as I'm not here specifically to "help" others learn or whatever - if they do learn something from my post then they do and if they don't then they don't. I don't want the competition anyway. Like Steve H says - I'm in this for ME and any slight edge I can gain over my competition be it through knowledge or tools or machines or whatever - then I'm all for it and too bad for you/whoever because it's all about me/my finds at the end of the day when it comes right down to it and I'm not going to help YOU to be able to find as much or more than me!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2014 02:58AM by MichiganRelicHunter.

It is a real eye opener to folks that I have invited to hunt down here, that are used to relying on tones and target ID in order for them to dig/not dig in their home base areas. Some soils will allow a person to get away with doing that. My soil does not. I think a lot of people might be surprised to find that their soil may do the same thing. I metal detected for several years before I discovered what was happening. Often times I would hunt a site, and maybe dig a few shallow things or nothing at all...and figure that maybe I missed the site location or that it had already been hunted.

I am solely responsible for having all my local detecting buddies to buy an F75. It wasn't long after I had got mine, that I figured out the all metal thing and for whatever reason, it just clicked with me in being able to tell iron from non iron in all metal...even when the IDs are showing iron on the display. I began to absolutely wear them out. On every hunt. And they of course, attributed this to the detector itself and they ALL eventually would end up with an F75 or T2. They could hunt beside me, in front of me, all around me, and I would still outdig them 10 to 1 most all of the time and it would frustrate them to no end. It wasn't so much as the detector itself that was superior...it was they were still using TID and disc to knock out iron. And what they were actually doing, was knocking out the good targets that were IDing as iron.

The pulse machines, so far, are the only machines to be able to keep the correct conductivity of a metal in this soil...no matter the depth. It could be be at 14 or 20 inches in the ground, and if the pulse machine says it is low conductive...it is gonna be low conductive from the time you first get the signal all the way til it's in the pouch. Same with the high conductors. I've never dug a signal that flipped flopped on me (that read high or low in ground..and then changed out of the ground) with a pulse machine. If detector companies can retain that ability of a pulse machine and couple it with discrimination capability...say up to the foil range...then I believe you would be utterly amazed at what would come out of the ground. Targets that you had walked over dozens of times and never knew they were there, or your ID machine read them as iron.

So why did you post in the first place???
I think this forum is a place for learning, a place to share ideas, a place to make friends and acquaintances. Tom D. and others have posted some great information to aid many a folks in their detecting quest. New equipment takes time to learn. This is a fantastic place to get great information on how to run it maybe better. I hope everyone makes some great finds. I'm all for it. Any machine too. All my post are open to criticism. If I write something that's in error or can be construed the wrong way, I figure someone will straighten me out. I love to detect. I don't have decades of experience but am a fast learner. A lot of my findings with certain detectors seem to fall in line it seems with most of the more experienced detectorists. So I'm on the right track it seems. You like to throw the term "newbie" around a lot. Guess what? We are "newbies" when we start using a new machine. And just because a person uses a machine for a lengthy period doesn't necessarily mean they have mastered it.

You stated the targets read "In fact - to my surprise - every one of these targets read as iron VID and TID almost exclusively" .
I disagree. Your CTX was infact showing a nonferrous reading. And guess what?? You dug a nonferrous target.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2014 03:31AM by tnsharpshooter.

MichiganRelicHunter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I didn't make this post to talk about other
> diggers or what they do/know or don't do/know
> though - I was only stating observations made
> during my short 1.5 hr hunt in the conditions I
> was encountering. Personally I don't care what
> anyone gathers from it or not as I'm not here
> specifically to "help" others learn or whatever -
> if they do learn something from my post then they
> do and if they don't then they don't. I don't want
> the competition anyway. Like Steve H says - I'm in
> this for ME and any slight edge I can gain over my
> competition be it through knowledge or tools or
> machines or whatever - then I'm all for it and too
> bad for you/whoever because it's all about me/my
> finds at the end of the day when it comes right
> down to it and I'm not going to help YOU to be
> able to find as much or more than me!!

Ha, ha, Is that what I say? Love it!

Great post. It constantly amazes me how really bad VLF discrimination is in all but favorable conditions. I pay attention to Daniels posts because although he hunts relics and I hunt gold our methods are identical, though his expertise at VLF all metal detecting exceeds mine. I need to get back on that because I had a knack for it. Anyway, point being in really mineralized ground or really trashy ground discrimination accuracy falls off at an alarming rate.

I was on ground the last two summers in Alaska where a .22 shell casing sitting directly in plain sight on top of the ground was called ferrous by a Fisher Gold Bug 2, F75, and White's MXT. And the ground did not seem particularly hot. There was a metamorphic rock there that just blew non-ferrous targets over into ferrous almost instantly.

I love playing with tones and VDI and all the discrimination stuff to no end. I am always trying to make it work for me. But just today I was bouncing the F75 and FORS Gold off each other with small coils on found non-ferrous targets in high mineral ground, and I could get both machines to give solid ferrous readings on thin foil targets even when in plain view. If course I am pushing into the realm where ferrous and non-ferrous overlap but still, it is an eye-opener. The other eye opener is how this silly little 50 ft by 50 ft chunk of park I keep hitting seems to endlessly keep giving up non-ferrous targets as I deploy different detectors and coils over it. If I ever get to nothing with the VLFs I am going to put a PI on it and do a Tom style sanitation just to see what got left.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2014 04:08AM by Steve Herschbach.

tnsharpshooter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So why did you post in the first place???
> I think this forum is a place for learning, a
> place to share ideas, a place to make friends and
> acquaintances. Tom D. and others have posted some
> great information to aid many a folks in their
> detecting quest.


Not to hear anything come from YOUR pie hole


> You stated the targets read "In fact - to my
> surprise - every one of these targets read as iron
> VID and TID almost exclusively" .
> I disagree. Your CTX was infact showing a
> nonferrous reading. And guess what?? You dug a
> nonferrous target.


WRONG

FACT

9xs out of 10 when you get a reading of 25/whatever --- it turns out to be IRON/JUNK

#s are WORTHLESS (as I tried to get across in my post) and they do not matter

I see now that I should have NOT stated a "#" readout because that's where the conflict here is between YOU/ME

I was only going by what I thought I remembered seeing on the screen but IN FACT I wasn't USING the #'s as to determine whether to dig or not anyway -

they may have been 25/31 or whatever but they may have been 29/31 too - I don't remember EXACTLY - I only used the #s that I thought I remembered seeing as a reference (MY BAD)!

It was the SOUND (iron GRUNT) with nothing more than a very SLIGHT BLIP every so often (NOT REPEATABLE, NOT 2 WAY, NOT 1 WAY CONSTANT, NOT SOLID) or any other tonal type indicator we all use to tell us to dig that I was trying to get across to YOU and the forum as to why MOST guys wouldn't dig these targets MORE SO than any other reason -- I only input some #s in the mid 20s as to what I thought I remembered seeing and BOY the self-righteous wannabe know it all's with their superiority complexes gotta come crawling out of the woodwork to downput, pick apart and point out what they see as flaws - now don't they?

Get OFF my page dude - go hang out with your thief/liar friend you were kissin up to last week in HIS thread/s...

I don't know how you guys run a Explorer type unit wide open zero disc in a high trash high iron area. I have tried doing that with a Explorer SE Pro and it was a nightmare of fluty tones, way worse than 0 disc f75 with short tones (I can handle those).

In one small area as such, (high iron and coke in the ground) I decided to use the coin program and was VERY surprised by the outcome. I said to myself, if I hear one micro high tone blip, not 2 way, not always, not every angle, I'm digging it. I didn't look at the screen, it didn't jive, waste of time. The first hole was a silver merc, hmmm fluke probably. 2nd hole, another merc, woa! 3rd hole a silver rosie, what da!....all shallow digs. I have been over this small area many times with the 75....a few IH's and wheat's, but no silver.

Your post MRH has me thinking to pull the Minelab SE off its hanger and re-learn it. I don't think I gave it 100%.... I was too use to the 75 and the cz.

Merry Christmas Every One!

Michigan Relic Hunter
The meter on the minelabs are probably the most helpful as compared to other VLF detectors. You see other VLF machines don't post the so-called ferrous number. It's there, so we should make the best of it. I want to congratulate you. You are the first person I've ever heard of that can dig iron signals using a minelab and in fact recover nonferrous finds at such an alarming high percentage rate. You should call minelab and give them the details. They would like to know this information.

The ferrous number has no bearing on if a target is junk or not, it has more to do with is a target ferrous or nonferrous. You stated you were not using disc. I disagree with that statement. You were in fact listening for the smallest blip of a high tone. You said you got iron grunts. So you were letting the machine still discriminate using tone. Something else too. Minelabs behave different than other VLF machines. Most VLF machines (Deus may be only exception) tend to start giving iron TID at fringe depths. Minelabs tend not to do so. They usually stop reporting tone altogether rather than report an iron tome. This is why the ferrous readout is so important to consider when deciding a DIG or NO DIG when using them. So if operating in Conductive Tones mode it's imperitive to ensure you don't run a disc that will disc out the deep targets, keep disc at line 28. If using Combined Mode the same applies although you may not be using disc. Meaning keep your ferrous tone break set to line 28. Now to be fair when you run your disc in conductive mode at line 28 it will generally make the etrac/CTX run more noisy when coming over medium and large iron as opposed to say running your disc at line say 24. The same when running in Combined Mode. Setting your ferrous tone break at 28 versus 24 will again make the CTX more noisy when coming over medium and large iron. But both of the recommended setups above ensure the deepies get through and not be reported as iron-tonal wise. Seeing deep good targets report with high ferrous numbers is not unusual. The ground can cause this as well as iron trying to mask.

Now to the conductive number. You stated you saw 30's come in your screen with the high tone blips. Most iron will report in the same place conductive wise where silver generally comes in. So a conductive reading of Thirty Something will generally be a nonferrous target. It would be a rare sight if you ever saw say for instance a reading of 35-30 or 32-30.
I have noticed when using Ground Coin the ferrous # are not as stable when sweeping over targets as compared to Ferrous Coin.
When your ferrous tone break while running in Combined Mode is maybe set too low i.e. 22, so you hit a target the ferrous number starts fluctuating say between 12 and 25. What will you hear? You will more than likely hear a high tone on some sweeps and iron grunt on others. Normal ops based on above settings. But this is a long ways from calling a target "junk". And many folks in the midwest have gotten away with these improper tone breaks and disc settings using minelabs? Why Because the soil in the midwest is generally some of the mildest in the USA. It generally takes a real deep target, iron, or maybe a spot that's contaminated with mineral for whatever reason to see nonferrous targets report with exceptionally high ferrous numbers. Michigan Relic Hunter I hope you can learn something from the information I've supplied. Think of it as a lesson. A lesson that didn't cost you a penny.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2014 01:18PM by tnsharpshooter.

tnsharpshooter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Michigan Relic Hunter
> The meter on the minelabs are probably the most
> helpful as compared to other VLF detectors. You
> see other VLF machines don't post the so-called
> ferrous number. It's there, so we should make the
> best of it. I want to congratulate you. You are
> the first person I've ever heard of that can dig
> iron signals using a minelab and in fact recover
> nonferrous finds at such an alarming high
> percentage rate. You should call minelab and give
> them the details. They would like to know this
> information.


WHOOSH

and the entire post has gone straight over your head!

I guess you didn't READ the part where (starting with the title itself) that the GROUND IS CONTAMINATED with iron/trash!?

#s don't mean CRAP in that situation no matter how hard you try to shove that crap down my throat! They can be 12/47 or 01/50 or 26/26 or WHATEVER in CONTAMINATED GROUND and it STILL doesn't MATTER!

We're NOT talking about walking along in some random field completely void of targets and then all of a sudden the CTX comes across a 10'' deep target with NOTHING for miles around it in neutral ground which allows one to look at a screen to determine based on co/fe #s IF one should dig or not and to where the #s would possibly be fairly helpful/accurate!

And to further prove just how much you don't READ (or at least can't interpret what you're reading)

is the fact that I wasn't digging iron signals ONLY in 100% absolute

I SAID that IF the target gave even the SLIGHTEST BLIP of a non-ferrous tone in ANY direction - I stopped to investigate and dug based on THAT fact even IF 99% of the sweeps called it iron!

NEXT time I'll VIDEO it so that YOU'all (especially and specifically YOU) can SEE/HEAR what I'm talking about since obviously someone skipped reading/interpretation 101

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To everyone else that replied to this post

thanks for your input/replies, support, etc and/but I'd also like to say

sorry for the BS conflictive argument caused by the Etrac/CTX EXPERT above who obviously digs targets based on the #s he sees on his screen (even in heavily contaminated ground from what I gather) and has so graciously bestowed upon us his EXPERTISE in doing such WHILE picking my thread apart and pointing out how HIS knowledge of FBS tech (and I guess detecting in general from the looks of it) is far superior than all others here!

Merry Christmas all!

want to congratulate you. You are the first person I've ever heard of that can dig iron signals using a minelab and in fact recover nonferrous finds at such an alarming high percentage rate.

It happened to me quite often.. Maybe not as often as mrh but enough to be regular... My etrac would also place the cursor on screen depending on disc used..i didnt use any disc for alot of hunts...but did like to check back and forth..my last few hunts before i sold it i had some targets come in at 35-48. Or bottom right corner..sounded like junk but with a slight tone change that made me look further into it..changed to disc and still heard tone and cursor kept going up the ferrous ladder as i disc out more ..tone changed somewhat and still not great but different.. Went over targets with F70 and were diggable targets easily..used disc and get broken tone mixed with good high tone..zero disc gets low grunt and high tone but mostly high tone..with good numbers..most targets were good ones mixed with rust.or rusted metal..for me the fisher made it easier to know if i should dig or not..etrac may have been slapping my face to dig too but i didnt feel like it was...does that make sense?? There were several targets like that wherd id never dig with etrac but was a hell yes on F70.. A couple were silver coins too.. Moral of story is the laungage of a detector has to be understood for it to find great finds..i did not think the etrac was speaking english to me lol may have been saying the same thing but was like charlie browns teacher

"that's what I was trying to get across in my OP above but I guess I failed (my bad)."

"my bad"...???

The combined mode on the CTX caters for this type of digging.

Simply drop the iron tone in ferrous value and use an open pattern.

Set the volume limit at a comfortable level so you can endure the constant barrage of sound.
Threshold just below audible.

Select one of the conductive sectors as your, DIG ME tone, and expand to choice.

With combined I adjust the tones so I have a 3 tone unit. Iron, Low conductor, High conductor.

A few more options, but this is how I run an Open Screen in heavy trash.
Am I using disc, Yes.. audio disc. But at the same time I'm hearing everything pass under the coil.

Can I endure a whole day of detecting like this, not really,... that is where the F75/F19 comes in.

As the OP sudjested, the signals that generate Snow with target trace are the deepies.
Don't look at the numbers, just listen for that BLIP in the audio.

Hardest part is not giving it too much throttle Sens wise and just a shake of salt audio gain.
Manual Sens has worked best for me and these kind of targets,... it isn't dropping or raising sens levels,... everything stays solid,... you start to get in tune with the detector.

Your headphones need a MUTE switch, so you can turn of the barrage whilst digging. I need a break from the sound now and again.

HH
Johnb

scoopjohnb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The combined mode on the CTX caters for this type
> of digging.
>
> Simply drop the iron tone in ferrous value and use
> an open pattern.
>
> Set the volume limit at a comfortable level so you
> can endure the constant barrage of sound.
> Threshold just below audible.
>
> Select one of the conductive sectors as your, DIG
> ME tone, and expand to choice.
>
> With combined I adjust the tones so I have a 3
> tone unit. Iron, Low conductor, High conductor.
>
> A few more options, but this is how I run an Open
> Screen in heavy trash.
> Am I using disc, Yes.. audio disc. But at the same
> time I'm hearing everything pass under the coil.
>
> Can I endure a whole day of detecting like this,
> not really,... that is where the F75/F19 comes
> in.
>
> As the OP sudjested, the signals that generate
> Snow with target trace are the deepies.
> Don't look at the numbers, just listen for that
> BLIP in the audio.
>
> Hardest part is not giving it too much throttle
> Sens wise and just a shake of salt audio gain.
> Manual Sens has worked best for me and these kind
> of targets,... it isn't dropping or raising sens
> levels,... everything stays solid,... you start to
> get in tune with the detector.
>
> Your headphones need a MUTE switch, so you can
> turn of the barrage whilst digging. I need a break
> from the sound now and again

Exactly!

Thank you John!

I was running manual sens 23 (max I could run)!