RECEIVED GARRETT AT Pro

Tom...no I don't have a gold nugget in the one gram range at present. Leave it with me, I'll check around and see what I can acquire. Meanwhile, I have plenty of silver in any size range I'll gladly send you. Nuggets, and / or silver-calcite specimens.There is no charge Tom, I could not accept a cent after all you have done for everyone here. I will get back to you when I know more.

Jim.

THANKS Jim. I do believe that the primary interest would be the acquisition of a small gold nugget......vs.......silver nugget. Only because most detectorists are either prospectors (for gold) or relic/coin/jewelry hunters. Yes, silver prospectors exist........but are somewhat limited in numbers. Thanks once again!

Just finished extensive beach hunting (several trips) with AT Pro. Again, some (somewhat) unexpected results.

WET SALT SAND: Unit immediately Grnd Bal'd on '15'. With full Sens......unit was fairly stable. This is to include ID mode.....and all-metal mode. As to be expected; with unit properly Grnd Bal'd to wet salt..... this single-freq unit became gold-dead. A small womans gold ring (a standardized test-ring) was detectable to 2" in the wet salt...... and the AT Pro would only 'crackle' on this ring. The Grnd Bal setting nearly has this ring 'balanced' out. (( Somewhat similar to Disc'd out )). A clad dime is detectable to approx 6". Keep in mind......... this unit was never intended/designed as a wet-salt hunter. Single-freq unit expectations were met. Still: I was glad to see the AT Pro would Grnd Bal to wet salt....... and could detect shallow higher conductive targets.

DRY SAND: This is where some interesting/unexpected results came to light. First; steel bottle caps do sound somewhat good......yet, are still highly audibly discernable. It is in the preamble & postamble 'iron grunts' that give away these types of targets. The body of the audio may be a mid or high tone....... but...... once again..... the beginning and ending audio response is a highly distinct/differentiable (linear) dead-giveaway. Audible intelligibility is MUCH more important than what ever a VDI portrays.

Because dry quartz/silica Florida sand is exceptionally mineral-free (hardly 'trace' elements)........the unit was very difficult to ground balance. This is similar to attempting ground balance with/in free air. It's just not going to happen; a 'normal' expected resultant. The coil (and detector) were substantially less 'reactive' to this dry sand. Due to this mineral-free condition.....deeper targets were less likely to ID as 'iron' whilst lightly scrubbing the coil. It did still occur...... but to a measureably less extent. Another clue/indicies/validation point of shield-paint issue.

This unit is not quite a micro-jewelry hunter; yet, it will find tiny gold jewelry (attribute of 15-Khz)......at VERY slightly deeper depths as compared to the new Teknetics G2......and also..... with great stability. This is also a good segue into the attributes of a much wider Ground Balance span. With Grnd Bal on '0'..... the unit is much more sensitive to high conductors (copper/silver coins)..............and gold-dead. With Grnd Bal on '99'...... this unit is substantially detuned to high conductors (copper/silver coins); yet, is extremely sensitive to low conductors such as very small gold jewelry. When you are on the beach..... you are not looking for clad coins. The intent is gold jewelry. So detuning the detector to coins is not necessarily a bad thing. This Garrett engineering electronic architect/platform poses unique Ground Balance attributes insofar as to allow the user to 'over-do' or 'over-drive' the Grnd Bal to your advantage. Since there is virtually zero minerals in this dry sand......you are not Ground Balancing to the dry sand; rather, you are 'sensitizing' or 'super-tuning' the detector to be more resonant to the targets of interest. And with this AT Pro with a deliberate manually dialed-in Grnd Bal of '99'........the unit was exceptionally stable in the dry sand......(w/Sens on max). Once again, this unit poses a much wider ground balance 'span'......as compared to most other detectors on the market. Use it to your advantage.

Coil epoxy/design is very solid............presenting no need for a coil cover......(unless the hunt will be in jagged rock terrain). For that matter.......the entire unit feels quite solid. ... Just need to get the (highly suspected) shield paint issue resolved.

Tom

Tom....PM sent today....Jim.

Got it. And..........once again......with MUCH gratitude!

Tom...final confirmation PM sent today, please confirm back to me upon arrival so we know it didn't get lost in the mail...Jim.

Honored. Roger......WilCo.

Quote
NASA-Tom
In a nutshell; Shield Paint is nearly a requirement so as to prevent the detector from being TOO reactive to the ground.

Tom, is it possible to remove the paint via sandblasting, or other suitable means, to test the coil in your inert FL sand? That would be very interesting...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 01:56PM by go-rebels.

No.......shield paint is deep (under epoxy layers) on the bottom side of the coil. Normal Mfr practice is to lay/install the coil wire in the housing. Then.... pour SOME epoxy. Then apply the shield paint. Then pour the rest (the bulk) of the epoxy. Shield paint is not visible.....nor is it exposed. IRT the Garrett AT Pro..... it may simply be that no shield paint is being applied.

Tom----I sure didn't know any of that (how shield paint is applied).-----VERY INTERESTING, thanks so much for the explaination.-----It's almost like shield paint is a type of "filter" (or blocker of sorts) inside of the coil (for ground noise/reaction) isn't it?-----I had heard about shield paint at various times but never understood how it was applied (or the FULL importance of it).---------Del

Exactly.

Jim H. ........... i JUST received the gold nugget in the mail a couple of hours ago. Again, with gratitude sir......THANK YOU!
The nugget is already mounted on a 18" wooden ruler.......solo............and is now a 'standardized' test specimen.........known as a 'test-standard'.......or 'calibration standard'. This 'standard' will be utilized from here.....forward. Standardization (with all variables removed) is the basis in which calibration and/or validated head-to-head comparison testing is most accurately performed.

Thanks for confirming Tom. We rockhunters will appreciate this new dimension added to the forum!!
I have a sneaking suspicion that one trip to the Ontario outback would have dramatic effects here...

Jim.

........and I still have a battery of tests with this newly acquired nugget....on my 'to do' board.

Tom...in keeping with this thread, could you put the AT Pro somewhere on your list please? Might help to get this thread back on track.

Over and out from Ontario...

Jim.

Hi Jim,

I have since returned the AT Pro....... as it was borrowed for testing purposes. Should there be resolution acquisition IRT coil issue.......I'll most probably own one. And this ... in turn ... would prompt me to test the unit with test-standard nugget.

Tom, have you gotten any indication whether there will be resolution on the coil issue? Do you know if Garrett considers this a problem? And do they agree with you that there may be a paint shielding issue?

BTW, John Bortscher, aka John-Edmonton, who is a very talented and dedicated dirt fisher, a big Garrett booster and does many field tests for them, has hinted on another forum that a new offering from Garrett is imminent.

Tom,

Can a T2 be ground balanced this way... to a high number in order to hit harder on low conductors in neutral ground (dry FL beach sand)?

Thanks,

Julien

Garrett is a very good company.......have been around for a long time........and will (most probably) look into the coil concern. I have had no contact with them......but feel quite certain that they are 'in-the-loop' (bad pun intended). I would like to see resolution of this issue......BEFORE they release yet another product. (Just my opinion).

Julien....As far as running the T2 with a higher Grnd Bal number; yes. And this holds true with nearly all brands of metal detectors. If dirt mineralization is not too bad....you can manually adjust the Grnd Bal to higher numbers.....so as to be more sensitive to lower conductors. And.....in most cases.......there is no adverse effect to higher conductors by doing this. A win-win scenario. You may encounter a slight amount more ground chatter.....in this configuration.

For those that are interested, there is now a thread in the Garrett forum on Find that discussed the AT Pro coil problem. It mentions problems exactly like the ones Keith Southern initially reported on this forum, and refers to NASA Tom's comments on AT Pro coil inssues. You can find it here:

[www.findmall.com]

Makes me look like I'm NOT crazy afterall!

Thanks Tom, I did not know that.

So, can I assume that anytime a detector auto sets the GB at or really close to the TID numbers of an intended target, it would be a good idea to raise or lower the GB manually.
For instance, if I am at a place known to hold brass buttons that hit at a TID of say 55 on my imaginary detector and the auto GB on the machine sets it in the mid 50s... I would do well to raise it to 70 or higher manually rather than leave the GB number near my intended target's number? I assume this isn't just for the beach or inert soil. I also assume I would risk added noise but that would be better than not hearing my intended target at all, right?.. or am I assuming too much, seeing we were talking about small gold, wet salt sand, and salt GB.

Thanks,

Julien



NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Garrett is a very good company.......have been
> around for a long time........and will (most
> probably) look into the coil concern. I have had
> no contact with them......but feel quite certain
> that they are 'in-the-loop' (bad pun intended).
> I would like to see resolution of this
> issue......BEFORE they release yet another
> product. (Just my opinion).
>
> Julien....As far as running the T2 with a higher
> Grnd Bal number; yes. And this holds true with
> nearly all brands of metal detectors. If dirt
> mineralization is not too bad....you can manually
> adjust the Grnd Bal to higher numbers.....so as to
> be more sensitive to lower conductors. And.....in
> most cases.......there is no adverse effect to
> higher conductors by doing this. A win-win
> scenario. You may encounter a slight amount more
> ground chatter.....in this configuration.

Julien, There was a really good post on the White's forum about this very thing, many months ago; Think it was a V3i thread and was talking about GB and the wrap around nature of VDI. I went out yesterday, first time in months, and GB was at 58-61 or so. 57 is around where most coins hit so I definitely could have missed some coins if the GB canceled them out.

Is that the point, that the GB if the same VDI as a coin, can cancel them out? I'm really surprised we don't hear more about GB potentially canceling out coins. .Really, I have to remember this as I hit this site regularly and the preceding numbers are always true.


Anyway, I got 3 mini balls from the 30 year war I think (very small), a small metal soldier, a 1851 Kreuzer, a near perfect condition 1742 silver hammered 2 Kreuzer and a Young Nazi honor badge (LOL). The last two are worth around $50 and $80 respectively, didn't realize the badge was so collectable. The hammered coin hit at 50-51 on my Omega and was around 4"-5" deep, solid but narrow signal - it's dime sized but thinner. One of the mini balls (they hit at 61 and hit poorly, but I know there sound and always find them) was on the surface as the gophers had really brought a lot of dirt up, I mean A LOT. Those gophers along with the previously frozen and wet ground probably moved some coins around. I have his this area before many times but this time hit it at a new angle and got the old hammered, though it hit 4 ways upon checking.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2011 09:03AM by earthmansurfer.

" Garrett is a very good company.......have been around for a long time........and will (most probably) look into the coil concern. I have had no contact with them "


Tom,

I HAVE been in touch with Garrett and they are acting like there is no problem at all .....If you look at my "findsmall" answer to the coil problem thread , you will see ...... They claim that there are other coils that exhibit this same behaviour , and that it is more common with DD coils .....They told me to send my machine and coil in and they would check it out .....I did not want them to detune the machine to run more quietly and let them know this in a letter to them ..... The Garrett crew is so thrilled ot have a good machine that they are overlooking any of the problems with the machine .....In Garretts defense , the machine runs pretty good and is somewhat deep on coins and did not have a chance to test it on gold .....The VID system is good , and pretty accurate ..... It ground balances good in the salt, but the jury is still out as to how deep it will go in the salt ..... My thinking is that if they are saying that this is "Normal " behaviour for this coil to false when it's twisted in the air , that they are NOT going to be interested in fixing the problem ....I'm thinking that someone else as an outside source is going to be our only hope in resolving this issue .... ( hint hint hint ) ........ I've strapped down my coil wire , I even took the coil off of the lower shaft and shook it , and STILL got the falsing of th coil ....I am convinced that it's a coil issue , but cannot convince Garrett of this .......Jim

Here's an answer to one of my questions .....


Hi James,

As far as you twisting your wrist back and forth and the detector going off that is normal. That is common with a lot of detectors and even more so with DD coils.
Where are you hunting at? Did you try to ground balance your detector to help with the noise that your detector makes when you get to close to ground? Also how tight is your coil wrapped around the stem?

Thanks,

Brad Keel
Customer Service - Tech Support
Garrett Metal Detectors


This was my email to Brad.......


Hi Brad,
After talking to a lot of guys on the forums , I am pretty much convinced that this is a coil issue and not a detector issue ......There are plenty of folks with the same issue as I have , and they are all convinced that this is the way its suppose to be .......I'm also not wanting my detector detuned , and would rather put up with the falsing rather than have it adjusted that way ..... You mentioned in one of your emails that this is normal, and is also common with other DD coils , and that there is nothing wrong with the coil ..... I respectfully disagree with you, and if that is your position on the matter, I don't think that anything will be resolved by me sending this unit back to you ...... As I said earlier , I have had many other brands of detectors with DD coils and none of them made these falsing noises .... The detector and coil still works , even though it falses .... If there are other coils that make these same noises, then they too have issues with them ...... I'm not going argue the fact with you , and will leave things the way they are and just hunt with the AT Pro for a while and sell it before the prices drop any more than they already have .... I had a good hunt in the dry sand as long as I kept the coil in the air , and did not hit any sand mounds , or make any swift moves to change direction ..... That sort of shoots the fast walk, with a fast detector , to grab recent drops , in the foot as is what I was hoping to use the AT for , but that's the way it goes .... If the company is not producing coils that don't false like this ,and the engineers feel that they are fine the way they are , I will just leave things the way they are ..... I don't think that I would have anything to gain by sending the unit back to you ......Thanks for listenning , and thanks for your offer to take this unit back ......I appreciate it ......Sincerely, Jim


I never got another reply .....I don't think that Garrett is going to fix something that the DON'T think is broken ....and as long as the Garrett users are concerned , if Garrett says it's normal , and they are finding targets , they are all happy !!...... The AT Pro is already a nice detector ....I'm sure it could be so much more without the falsing issues ...... I really like this machine a lot , and hope that maybe by some slim chance , someone with some clout could get to the bottom of this falsing issue ..... As I said in other threads ....I could deal with some minor shortcomings of the machine, but the falsing is a hard pill to swallow .......Jim

To be fair to Garrett , they did offer to have my machine shipped to them to have it checked out ......I saw no need to have this done since so many other machines are doing the same thing ......People are just using them this way ......They still hunt , they just false at in opertune times .....Jim



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2011 02:44PM by synthnut.

Quote
earthmansurfer
Is that the point, that the GB if the same VDI as a coin, can cancel them out?

I never understood ground balancing to work that way, believing that VDI and GB were working on two totally independent variables.

My ground often GBs at ~60, and I find plenty of Zincolns with my LTD at that same number.

But it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong...

Hi Jim...

You saud, " I had a good hunt in the dry sand as long as I kept the coil in the air , and did not hit any sand mounds , or make any swift moves to change direction ..... That sort of shoots the fast walk, with a fast detector , to grab recent drops , in the foot as is what I was hoping to use the AT for , but that's the way it goes ...."

If that is the case I think you would be very well served by a T2 SE. I have an original T2 and it is excellent and fast on the dry sand salt beach... I do have the F75 LTD and I suspect it is as good or better. The T2 SE is just a little cheaper and the BP mode is designed to not lose any depth with an air gap so... recent jewelry drops on a dry sand beach site should be NO problem to the SE with the coil 6" off the ground... I find the T2 to be every bit as good on the dry sand as the SovereignGT, if not better... it's when you get in the wet stuff that there is a difference but you can still use the T2 on wet sand or wading if you manual balance but taking the coil in and out of the water... well, just don't do it... that does not work well... but we were talking about moving fast on dry sand and the T2 SE should really be the magic bullet for that, IMO.

I am still considering an AT but I have also taken notice of the Scorpion. I am interested in it after reading some of Monte's TIPS and other posts on the Vintage Detector Forum about how the old T/R Disc detectors worked in iron. Not as much depth but an absolute ability to disc out iron without that wrap that causes so much falsing in iron... that interests me and also from Monte's article, the Scorpion is one of, if not the only current production detector to offer a T/R Disc mode. Now, I may be confused about the whole thing. If I am I hope someone will set me straight... but at 15khz, three modes: AM, Motion Disc, and T/R Disc... it has my interest. It should be a good relic machine in iron unless I am missing something...


Good luck with the AT and keep us posted. Perhaps SEF will soon have a coil or two for it and maybe Garrett will put a decent straight shaft that isn't designed for a child on it... I guess I will go check now and see if my last post on FM got me banned, the one about someone changing a post... maybe yours... I don't remember. Of course it was on the Garrett forum.

Julien

go-rebels Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Is that the point, that the GB if the same VDI
> as a coin, can cancel them out?
>
>
> I never understood ground balancing to work that
> way, believing that VDI and GB were working on two
> totally independent variables.
>
> My ground often GBs at ~60, and I find plenty of
> Zincolns with my LTD at that same number.
>
> But it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong...

Well, hopefully someone adds something here, but it should be easy enough to test.

If the Zincs hit at 60 then try GB at 60 AND ALL the variegates within that. On my Omega I think there are 5 points within 60, or something like that.

Yeah, I'll also say I've been wrong before. It lessens the pain should I turn out to be wrong here. ;-)


Regarding the AT Pro and Garrett saying there is nothing wrong with the coil/unit. That is sort of shocking but perhaps the cost of fixing the "problem" openly would be too expensive, because almost every coil does it that has been sold and that would mean mailing out a free coil to quite a few people as you can't repair it to my understanding. The way some people hunt it probably doesn't matter.

Maybe they will fix it but not say anything and only replace it to those who send it in but that sounds a bit extreme. They could argue it's more of a cosmetic fix and not under the level of recall as it doesn't necessarily affect performance. People say the detector is deep. I'm still on the fence about getting an AT Pro as now I'm not sure it would be a big improvement over my Omega, or even that my Omega is better than it, albeit I do love the waterproof feature just for getting out and not worrying as well as the potential of both it's iron audio feature and excellent analog like audio.

Julien ,
Thanks for the reply and the info ...I appreciate it .......I basically wanted a fast machine that would go reasonably deep ...I did not expect much in the Salt , and I still don't ......The waterproofing was the icing on the cake ......Factor in a good straignt shaft , with a longer arm cuff , and get the coil straightened out , and this is a pretty good machine !!..... I know that it will Ground Balance in the Saltwater by me , but I"m not sure how deep it will go once in the salt ...I did dig a couple of coins in the 3 inch deep area , and my partner was digging coins down 6-8 inches in the same area with his CZ-21, but then again , maybe the targets were just not there where I was hunting ....and as I said earlier , I was not even looking for ANY kind of performance in the salt from this machine , so in reality , it's really better in the wet salt than I thought it would be ......I didn't even thihk it would ground balance !!.....Jim

Earthmansurfer ,
To give me a different coil would be admitting that they made a bad coil ....It's easier to just leave things the way they are , and have people believe it's "normal " ..... It will probably take another company to make an aftermarket coil to produce one that does not false, but that may be highly unlikely too as the Garrett coil has a proprietory connector on it !!...... If you want to buy the $5 connector , it will set you back $20 or so from my understanding ..... There are no other coils out for this machine yet ...... The machine still hit's targets well , and still works.....You just have to go over every spot that you hear a falsing and move more slowly over it to see if it falses again ....When it falses , you think you are hitting a high tone target which is a good target ..... If you move slower, and don't scrub the ground, and you don't hit any sapplings or sand piles or dirt piles while hunting , and you don't move too fast , you are OK ..... If it were not for the waterproof feature , and ID'ing in All Metal , I would probably have gone for the Omega 8000 ...... I don't know enough about the 8000 to know if it will give you ID in All Metal but i have heard nothing but good things about it ......As I said earlier , if they could give me a coil that did not false , I could very easily warm up to this machine !!.....Jim

Here's a video I just made that I thought you guys might enjoy .....Jim

[www.youtube.com]