RECEIVED GARRETT AT Pro

Jim......good video........good capture............point well taken/demonstrated.

Julien; NO NO NO!!!!!!! My explanation was simply 'not clear'. There is absolutely no correlation to "ID" numbers ... vs ... Grnd Balance numbers. Adjusting the Grnd Balance is a phase-shift adjustment......and has nothing to do with "paralleling" the ID numbers. Example: If a Indian Head penny ID's at '58'............and you adjust the Grnd Bal to '58'.........this does NOT mean that the penny will no longer be detected! NOT the case!

On most detectors...........simply lowering the Ground Balance numbers...... the less sensitive the unit will become to small low-conductor targets.....regardless of what they ID. Yes.... they do ID with lower numbers.....but there is NOT a direct correlation interlocked between the two functions.

HELP!!!! I'm not sure if I am making this any clearer!!! My semantics seem to lack.

As far as Garrett; This is exactly why I specifically/carefully chose the words: 'paradigm shift' .... IRT the coil ambiguity. My deepest concern was (and still is).......they would NOT see this as a problem; hence, a "MINDSET" is in need of change. Another stated way: Culture change.

In order to ascertain the same 'end' resultant.......we could restate it as: '"There is no engineering problem; rather, , , , another 'advancement/improvement' could be made to the coil/existing platform.......making the unit even better"'. This would relinquish 'blame'.....and impose 'opportunity' for additional improvements!

I would love to see nothing more than this AT Pro... proverbially go to the Moon, Mars and beyond. Believe me..... ALL of us want this. Competition advances the breed.....and drives us to excel.

FYI: Wrist-twist of the F75 LTD Special Edition with the elliptical DD coil in the air....... and no problems encountered. (Same with CZ, Sov, Explorer, MXT, T2, 6000DiPro, Cobra-II).

Tom

Tom,
I like where you are coming from with the " you have a nice machine , let's improve it to make it even better " mentality ..... I'm not so sure that they are ready to accept that ......I think that they would probably come back with ....." Why would I want to make it better ? ....People are happy with it the way it is " The machine does work the way it is , and I would LOVE to see it excel as much as you would , but if nobody is going to take responsibility for the shortcomings of the machine, then the beat goes on !!......I like the VID on this machine, I like the weiight of this machine, I don't even mind having to build a straight shaft setup with an extended arm cuff for this machine .....I just want a coil that doesn't false ......

One question for you .....I'm not sure if this is typical of single frequency machines or not , but why do Silver dimes turn into an Iron tone when they are somewhat deep on the AT Pro ? .......I can understand a machine not ID'ing properly at extreme depth, but normally you STILL get an honest tone from the machine .....I've always been of the assumption that tone trumps EVERYTHING and have been hunting that way for years ......Thanks, Jim

This is unbelievable! There is no way I could hunt given that continuous falsing; it would drive me crazy!!!

In a nutshell: MINERALIZATION

It is not so much a fault of the AT Pro that has this problem (not isolated to just the AT Pro)......rather, a common problem to ALL electromagnetic principle-of-operation metal detectors ....... regardless of brand. Deep targets......especially in mineralized soil.... pose this same geophysics problem. And it does not isolate itself to just 'silver dimes'. ANY deep object can look like..... and ID as 'iron'. Attenuation, phase shift, weak signal....and anything can happen to ID accuracy.

I know I have said this before on this forum.....a long time ago..... and probably a few times: Utilizing a electromagnetic form of detection device (a metal detector) on a electro and magnetic core Earth...... seems counter-productive. A paradigm shift is overdue! The way we 'think' needs a 'shift' from the current 'norm'. Electromagnetic detection devices has become TOO much of the cultural mindset norm. So much so......it's hard to snap out of it! But......once again: How do you know what you are missing........if you don't know it even exists.

"How do you know what you are missing........if you don't know it even exists."

I have experienced this when hunting in a Park with a Sovereign, and my buddy had his E Trac ....He was htting the coin no problem , and I couldn't hit it no matter what I did ......It amounted to what you spoke of in one of your articles on MASKING !!..... MASKING reared it's ugly head when I could not hit the coin that my buddy could !!.....It woud not have been so bad if it were not a beautiful Barber dime !!!......

I do not experience the iron tone issues with Multi Frequency detectors ....The visual ID may change , but the Audio stays true ...... So this leaves me assuming that if I go beyond 6-8" in depth and I am getting an iron tone from a single frequency detector , I should dig it anyway because it might be Silver ? ...... Wierd !!.....Thanks for the reply ....Jim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2011 04:47PM by synthnut.

Quote
synthnut
So this leaves me assuming that if I go beyond 6-8" in depth and I am getting an iron tone from a single frequency detector , I should dig it anyway because it might be Silver?

I do not find that deep silver signals yield an iron tone on my F75 LTD. Either I get a high pitched chirp... or I get nothing. That is the way it should be. In addition, I don't believe it is a function of a "single frequency" detector anymore than Garrett's door bell audio is a function of a single frequency detector.

go-rebels ,
This is what is confusing me about Tom's answwer ..... I have gotten deep Silver when hunting with my Excal, my Etrac and my Sovereigns when I owned them ........ I have NEVER gotten an Iron tone when finding deep Silver ....This is why I questioned it when running the AT Pro ...I can take a Merc dime , and run it back and forth across the coil of the AT Pro , and just as soon as I pass the 7" or so mark away from the coil , it turns into an iron tone ..... I have adjusted the Ground Balance both high and low to see if I could hear a difference in tone .....I DID find that I could go further away from the coil by a good inch or more with the G.B. set lower, but still got the iron tone .....Depending on whether or not my machine get's noisier or not , will depend on how I set my GB when hunting in real world situations ..... Hunting the beach like I do , you are torn between finding a bunch of clad to pay for the tolls and gas for the trip , or setting the GB the other way to find more Gold to pay for the trip AND the detector !!.....Jim

Air and ground are diffrent. Also like Tom mentioned Mineralzation. In your case the dimes you were finding that day were on a beach in dry sand. Bulldozers had removed a few feet of sand to leave a beach form years past. The silver we pulled was still coated although not black like you some times see. Some machines will sound off that way when the target is at the edge of detection.

" Some machines will sound off that way when the target is at the edge of detection."

I guess the AT Pro fits into this catagory ....Jim

Jim............Hmmmmmmm. I did not know your silver dime test was an air-test with the AT Pro. And for the unit to ID a silver dime at 7" (and beyond) as 'iron'.....is a severe problem. My only question (at this point) is...... was the coil in the air.......and the dime being waived in the air....past the coil? ((( I have witnessed plenty of folks place a dime on a rebar driveway/sidewalk.....and have plenty of (expected) problems ))).

It is only my opinion. but there seems to be a trend within the industry amonst the major manufacturers to deny known issues with new machines and then charge the customer for the fix later on down the road. They must be borrowing the philosphy of of big boy software developers.......let the customers be the beta testers.
The other discouraging behavior is the lack of transparency by the mfg's as to how the machines can best be adjusted by the end user for maximum performance. It's not any information that a competitor could use against them (patent protection is still enforced). But it makes the end user's experience less satisfying than it should be and results in new people to the hobby dropping the hobby. Or, the other result is that experienced detectorists bad mouth the unit(s) because they don't get the proper info to run the machines to their max capabilities.
Like I said, just my opinon.........

And to stay on topic..the first aftermarket coil manufacturer that comes out with a properly functioning coil for the AT Pro...is going to make a KILLING

Maybe Garrett is seeing the aftermarket scenario as their solution. No cost to them. And the customer takes it in the shorts...again (My opinion.Not fact)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2011 02:07AM by TerraDigger.

Tom
The dime was not put on a sidewalk or near any rebar, or any other iron for that matter ... ....it was an air test as I have nothing but snow where I am ... The Merc dime was swept behind the coil and was reading a high tone until I got about 7-8 " away from the coil .....The tone then turned to an Iron tone ......It sitll hit , but it was not a high tone Silver tone ..... I will test it again tomorrow and make a video after I clean up what they say is going to be 6-12 inches of snow !!...........Thanks, Jim


" And to stay on topic..the first aftermarket coil manufacturer that comes out with a properly functioning coil for the AT Pro...is going to make a KILLING"

One would think that this would be the case , but from what I am seeing over at finds , there is no real answer for me .....Garrett is saying that what this coil is exhibitting is "normal " ......The Garrett owners at finds are convinced that it is normal , and they are telling me to send my machine and coil back to Garrett , who is telling me that what I am experiencing is normal ...Round and round and round !!.....It's all pretty supid .......Garrett is not owning up to ANYTHING and say that this is normal behavior !!..... Why would the AT PRo owners buy a coil if they are finding targets , and can use the coil that they already own that they are happy with ? ....... and for me to go out and buy another $100 - 150 coil that does not false , just adds more to the price of a machine that I paid enough for to begin with .... I for one would LOVE to see a SEF coil or something similar come out for the AT PRo , and be a silent running coil , if for nothing more , than to prove to the Garrett users that they were wrong , and that they are using a lesser coil on their machine ..... As it stands now , if nobody produces a better coil , we are all at a loss ....I'm pretty well STUCK !!.....I would loose too much money to try to sell this machine......I can't hunt the way I NORMALLY hunt with this coil , and Garrett is saying that this is NORMAL ???.....You can't make this stuff up .....I gave up on the coil thread over at finds .....There really was no answer .....I'm pretty tired of getting duped by companies that take us detector buyers as a bunch of fools .....Maybe if we stop sticking electrical tape on our lower shafts to stop them from wabbling , and sticking broomsticks in our upper shafts to make our arm cuffs long enough for an adult to use , and we send back ALL the machines that are falsing , then MAYBE they will take us more serously .... Until then , we deserve what we get ......Jim

The most positive thing I can offer is that when issues with new machines are discovered it initally takes time for the problem to get recognized by the majority of users......but eventually the "cat gets out of the bag"......and some form of fix takes place........it did with White's V3 and the Teknetics T2 and others.
Plus, Tom Dankowski may not be liked by Findmalls moderators.......he's a threat to them because of his truthfulness regarding machines............but Tom D. is seriously respected by detectorists............my money is on Tom's research and that AT Pro users will eventually realize there is a coil problem indigenous only to the AT Pro.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2011 05:06AM by TerraDigger.

Jim - I know how you feel - when the Garrett GTI 2500 first came out I bought one new and it falsed all the time - it had the white coil - no matter where the sense was set it falsed with any movement - I contacted Garrett and shipped the coil only back to them per Garrett - they sent me a new one but it did not cure the problem - I could'nt stand to even hunt with it with so much falsing. I sold it at a loss. Garrett eventually went to a different style coil on the GTI's and I picked up a used 1500 about 6 months ago with the newer style coil and this machine is fantastic - I am a 'coil scrubber' and it never falses - you could wrap it around a tree and not get it to false - I've dug coins deeper than my lesche digger is long - in fact it is my main park machine now - I use the old TR for the ghost towns due to the rusty small nails/masking. [Got 5 seated dimes and 4 Indians one day-older tech does have its place] - My point is I hope Garrett addresses the coil issue sooner on the ATPRO than they did with the GTI series. On another note I will never buy a brand new design/machine from any manufacturer again until it has been out for awhile and proven - just my 2 cu. I've had 2 newer machines that I sold as they did not meet claimed specs and all my current machines [7 of them] I have bought used and could'nt be happier.

Jim, You really should send your coil back. That way you can be certain that don't do anything to the electronics to stop the falsing. I am sure they have a unit they can stick it on and test it. Tell them that you are convinced that the coil is faulty and that you do not want to spend the extra money to send the whole machine.
Is there a dealer or another user anywhere near you that will let you try another coil on your machine?

That is what I would do.. and if push comes to shove just tell them straight up that if you send the whole machine you will always wonder in the back of your mind if the sens was turned down so that it wouldn't false... just be honest with them. Tell them that you are not happy... actually I think they should send you another coil that they know is good and let you use the box to return yours to them... and if you talk to the right person, you may be able to get that done for the asking. White's sold me a V3 that did not have the most up to date software. I called White's and they told me I could send it in for an update... that made me mad... I went online with it and the same day Carl @ Whites contacted me and made arrangements to send me a new V3. I told him I would just swap out the control box part of the machine and keep my original coil and lower shafts... he sent it, I made the swap, and sent it back... problem solved. I don't know why Garrett wont do the same with you on the coil... then if you still have a problem you can confortably send the whole machine in. Then when you get it back, if you are not happy you can sell it as just serviced by Garrett with a clean bill of health!

Julien

Quote
TerraDigger
Plus, Tom Dankowski may not be liked by Findmalls moderators.......

Now, now... how could you figure that?

[www.findmall.com]

Quote
Guvner
It seems Garrett has been named time and time again. The [Tom's] forum is so small that I'm not sure it's worth the time but I did fire off a letter to Garrett letting them know they are going to get blamed because we flushed some trouble makers just in case they manage to find a big forum to post all this rubbish on.... I think I'll just watch to see how much this guy allows these miscreants to mess up his supposed detecting forum.

Yes, the Guvner is a long time Finds Moderator...

Tom, disregarding the mechanical connection, what does it take electrically to make one coil work on another brand of machine? I would think that if the resistance and impedance could be matched (not an easy thing to do), then the detector electronics could not tell the difference.

Coils don't have any 'active' circuitry, like diodes or transistors... do they?

Quote
TerraDigger
Plus, Tom Dankowski may not be liked by Findmalls moderators......."Now, now... how could you figure that?"

LOL.....I needed a good chuckle

Thanks Reb

There are a multiplicity of factors that go into coils..............more than meets-the-eye. Yes, many coils have electronics built into them. Just to name a few engineering requirements that (can) go into coils:

1. RL circuits
2. RC circuits
3. Resonant freq tuned
4. Wire gauge (diameter)
5. Wire type (copper, alum, silver-plated, conformal coated)
6. How many windings
7. Impedence match
8. Capacitance
9. Null adjust
10. Pre-amp

Just to name a few.

Then there is coil wire.........and assoc (multiple) requirements.

I hear occasionally of folks building coils from scratch. It would be interesting to see someone build one for the AT Pro, with decent sensitivity, to defeat the falling issue. I love the waterproof feature of the AT, and believe that to be it's greatest 'trump card' above competing detectors, but I would never tolerate the falsing. If the recent video is typical performance then I'd be returning it immediately.

In fact I'd purchase a waterproof F75LTD, with no other functional improvements, if one were made available.

When a company has so many detectors out on the street , and they work well , except for the falsing issues , it's pretty easy to tell a bunch of followers/users that everything is OK , and that it falses because it's a highly sensitive coil .......Now the user base feels special because they have a machine that has a SENSITIVE coil on it designed ESPECIALLY for the machine ....There are plenty of buzz words that make people think that they really have something SPECIAL even though it falses like crazy !!!.... Since there has been nothing earth shattering come around the bend in many years from the company , and the machine does so much , and is relatively inexpensive , said machine is not only SPECIAL , but it really doesn't cost that much , and it still does so much better than the older machines !!...... Now , you can bring the product into a mid priced catagory , and skimp on whatever you want , and people will overlook many of the faults of the machine, because of al lthe features it has , and because it goes DEEP and does so much ..... There is a mentality behind why people accept all of these shortcomings as was told to me by a buddy of mine ....It revolves around the principle of " No good deed goes unpunished " ..

Good or bad, and right or wrong does NOT matter when someone owns a metal detector ....They have researched the detector , and have bought into the hype, and the smoke and mirrors, and they now own THE MEGA MACHINE !!!.......and it only costs a few $$$ !!!......The MEGA MACHINE will put those $1500 detectors in thier place in NY minute !!!..... They finally get the machine , and they realize that it's not what they expected , but ( and here's the kicker ) they don't want to look like a fool for buying a machine that is not as good as everyone said it was !!....It has more problems , and is not all that well made , and they just don't have it in themselves to admit that maybe they didn't buy such a great machine ......So rather than admit that they have a machine that has problems , they DEFEND the machine, and make excuses for the machine , to make it better than it is ......Then there is the guy who calls it like it is and says ...." What's up with A, B, C, and D " ......What then happens is everyone who does not want to look less than smart , DEFENDS the machine and makes excuses for it ..... NOBODY wants to look like they bought something that is defective .....They want to look SMART .....They also have the support of the company that made the machine saying " This is normal behaviour " ......NOW when you say there is a problem , they hit you with " What are you smarter than the Engineers at so and so ? " ..... tying their best to discredit you ....... Then they even take it one step further and try to discredit someone who KNOWS wha tthe problem is , that has a very high standing in the industry , so that they can try to make the issue go away ..... So the point I am trying to make here is ...It really doesn't matter if you are right and you can spot the problem ......because people don't want to think that they bought a machine with a problem , and they don't want to think that they've been duped !!!...... .... So the good deed of knowing that something is wrong , and talking about it , will get you punished !!.....

As I said earlier .....If a company truely thinks that their product is working properly, they will NOT fix it ...... and if my coil on my AT Pro is working properly, and this is the way it was designed to work , then my first Garrett machine will SURELY be my last .... I may not be an engineer , but I wan't born yesterday .......Jim

That's it, in a large nutshell synthnut. If the pridefull owners were true to themselves, they wouldn't settle for the shortcommings and problems with a new detector.
Garrett wouldn't have much of a choice but to grease the squeaky wheels. Garrett, and they know it, would be more prosperous in the long run by taking care of their customers...... many of them being new ones, hold onto them. It certainly is in their best interest. I hope they step up to the plate and solve this issue, they can get some good momentum going with this machine. I for one, would like to see it.

The AT Pro issue is not going to go away. Your analysis of people wanting to look smart is spot on. But I'll betcha anything that the owners who are aware of this issue and are defending their AT Pro machines now, are going to twitch & grimace every time that machine false's in the field. They will either privately complain to Garrett or try to sell the unit.
I have been doing detecting for 30 years. I remember when Garrett was #1. Not that way anymore. I wonder why????
I am not going to berate Garrett, but when a company slips from 1st place to about last place amonst the major manufacturers (my opinion only), you have to wonder why.

. On
> another note I will never buy a brand new
> design/machine from any manufacturer again until
> it has been out for awhile and proven - just my 2
> cu. I've had 2 newer machines that I sold as they
> did not meet claimed specs and all my current
> machines [7 of them] I have bought used and
> could'nt be happier.


I agree. I looked hard at buying the new AT Pro, but the fact that it was new scared me off. Now I am glad that I went with the F70. I have owned Garretts and have nothing against the company, but I am always a little gun shy of untried new products from any company.

I am guilty of my own rule of not buying something until it is proven ...I use to be the guy that had to have the fastest, the newest the best , the most feature laden, the best looking , product on the market ....I would buy as soon as it hit the streets .....Then after realizing that I was nothing more than a Beta tester , I stopped doing this .......I was WAY ahead of the game .....For whatever reason , I saw threads being written on how the AT Pro was ground balancing on a wet salt beach and while I knew that this was not the norm for a single frequency machine, I thought to myself , " maybe Garrett really did pull the rabbit out of the hat " .......I got more and more intrigued and was talking to my partner and buddy about buying a dry sand machine that was light and fast , and could ID well that was not too expensive .....When I told him that I bought an AT Pro , he laughed !!.....I showed him the threads and he just laughed again and said " you never learn " ..... I really like to hope for the best , and figured , that it was OK if it didn't do well in the salt , as long as I can move fast on the dry sand , that I woudn't have a problem ....I never even considered a machine that woud false like crazy ....I figured it was so much like the other single frequency machines that it would be like a waterproof Omega !!....Honestly!!!....That's what I was picturing ....I figured , How bad could it really be ...... Then I get the machine, and find that it ground balances OK in the wet salt , but falses at everything it bumps into and falses as you change direction ....I found PLENTY of good targets with it , but the falsing was driving me nuts .....At fiirst I was happy because it was the first machine in a while that I had that did not have a threshold ....Threshold machines are nice , but when you just want a machine to fly down the beach with , and get as many recent drops as you can , you don't need to bother youreslf with a threshold .... I figured ..OK , I bought from a reputable company , and everyone raves about the customer service , so I figured I was safe with this purchase .....When it was explained to me that this falsing was normal , I sat in shock .... I use a Garrett Pro Pointer and LOVE IT , and thought that I would be happy with the AT for a beach screamer ...... I wish Garrett the best , but frankly I really expected a lot more from a company that I have heard so many good things about ..... I was really hoping for thier sake that they really DID pull the Rabbit out of the hat ....I got to the point that I was hoping for them as much as I was hoping for me ......A company that does well , can only prosper , and make a better detector for me to purchase !!.....At least this is the way I see it .... I still wish them the best , and hope they see that the new buyers are the ones that will help make them a better company ...... The old customers will always stay loyal ..... This is not something I've heard , it's something that I've witnessed first hand ......Jim

Wow! Where's all of the positive inspiration?????? I'm still willing to bet that.......when all of the dust settles....... a deep breath will be taken....... and a 'improvement' will be implimented into the AT Pro coil issue. The electronics are top-notch.......yet, there lies one (fairly small) issue with the coil.

From an engineering standpoint.........my only concern is that ..... this one problem is (epiphany) 'recognized'. Fifty percent of resolution......is to 'recognize' (identify) the problem.

Garrett has put a ton of engineering/effort into this platform. I could hardly begin to summarize the amount of time, money, labor, engineering, research vested into this unit. A major improvement via a minor correction should not be inhibiting.

Yes, when they find resolution acquisition......there will be a lot of happy folks.......and a lot of frustrated folks... in HOW current consumers are handled. Welcome to life. Welcome to the real world! Remember.......they need to make money to stay in business (and mitigate losing 'face'). I merely seek: 'advancement'.

Tom

Miscreant: Definition of MISCREANT
1
: unbelieving, heretical
2
: depraved, villainous

Quote from:
Guvner (Findmall Moderator)
"It seems Garrett has been named time and time again. The [Tom's] forum is so small that I'm not sure it's worth the time but I did fire off a letter to Garrett letting them know they are going to get blamed because we flushed some trouble makers just in case they manage to find a big forum to post all this rubbish on.... I think I'll just watch to see how much this guy allows these "miscreants" to mess up his supposed detecting forum."

Can you believe a moderator posted this?

Although, the other day I yelled at my other half to turn off the vacuum cleaner. Turns out that the sucking noise I heard was Guvner, pandering to Garrett.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2011 06:59AM by TerraDigger.

I think the owner of Findmall, and his moderators, are a bunch of .... well, use your imagination. Dankowski's site is far superior

And I'm speaking for myself, and not for this forum, nor the owner, nor anyone else. Just thought I'd clear that up.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2011 04:40AM by Mojave.

Half the people on Findmall have no scientific understanding of how metal detectors work, and don't use proper methodologies in testing equipment. You get statements like, " well I dug a dime at 14'' so I know my ..... can sure go deep" and statements like "air-tests don't mean anything because you need the 'dirt matrix' to get the most depth" When I hear statements like that I never take their advice seriously.

I bought my first metal detector when I was 14, and it was a Garrett. But I don't care what brand it is as long as it performs well. And I think most people would agree that Garret's flagship detector GTI 2500 is very outdated compared to other top detectors out there. So the AT Pro is very welcome, I am very impressed with Garrett for going in that direction. Besides all the other features that simply trump the GTI 2500, it's basically a much more powerful detector for half the price. Just look at this video I found on you tube. Without a doubt Garrett will have a flagship detector out this year based on the AT Pro, because nobody is buying the GTI 2500 when they can get a Fisher, Minelab, or Teknetics for that price.

[www.youtube.com]

" Garrett has put a ton of engineering/effort into this platform. I could hardly begin to summarize the amount of time, money, labor, engineering, research vested into this unit. A major improvement via a minor correction should not be inhibiting. "

One would think !!.........

The arm cuff is too short on the Ace 150, so they continued it on the 250, and that was not enough that they put it on the AT Pro and also the 350 .......... and a minor problem should not be inhibiting ? a shaft lock on your machine is asking too much ? .......This is not a $200 detector ....... I completely agree that this should be handled in the name of "Advancement " but how do you reach a company that continues to build with the same shortcomings machine after machine ? ....... I remember a thread where a guy said " I don't care what machine Garrett makes , I"m buying it as soon as it hit's the streets " ....... It seems that a lot of the old customer base is THRILLED with the AT Pro and has every right to be ......and then you have the new customer base that buys into the hype and goes ..WHAT ???????......... I would LOVE to see this machine come to a higher level of build quality ......I have no doubt that it will be a classic one day ......A few corrections and this machine would be GOLDEN !!!..... or will it become a jack of all trades, and master of none !!.....Jim