Well I have been gone most of the day and now I see

the AT Pro coil thread I started over on the other forum has disappeared.

Did it die an ugly death???? LOL

Tom Z

Hmmmmm. Don't know.

SJ turned it into another BASH effort. It seems all his bashing threads are gone. This seems like the only forum one can get a serious and honest AT report from. HH jim tn

with topic's not really related to detecting...they have removed a couple I know of...


so yes the At-Pro is very sensitive in 2 way's HA-HA...

nothing said that time wont heal though...


Keith

Keith you understated that well.. LOL

For those that don't visit this forum of Tom's I wish that the moderators over there would have put your G2 vs GB thread back where you originally posted it before deleting the comparison forum. It was a good bit of information.

Too bad things are what they are over there.

Tom Z



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2010 02:45AM by Jackpine.

I only mentioned this forum, speaking about how comparisons are done here and another site without incident or micromanaging from the Mods, (Net? Friendly? ... I forgot)... nothing specific... and my response got pulled and got a PM referring to it pissing off a sponsor.

Pretty thin skinned over there I say. But you'll see some of the Mods causing a bit of trouble within their own forums. Very surprising behaviour...

Whatever, this place seems to work.

Congrats to Tom and all who make it constructive!

Oh, it seems that you can compare brands now and even label the threads as such over at Garretts forum. Just find the thread entitled "AT Pro vs the E-Trac and DFX on gold video." Yeah, no comparisons. They systematically remove the "offending" threads. Seems like having a good performing unit lets the sponsors rethink their quiet monopolistic viewpoint, as long as it comes out on top that is.

They have a provocateur (SJ) who attacks and bashes any criticisms on the AT Pro, destroying the content of the thread and helping to get it deleted. His status there is obviously higher as he is now putting his name in the thread titles, even though you name is listed right under the thread titles. It is like a government operation over there.

But you know what, it all comes down to users letting it happen. I know myself and others (here and there) have spoken up a bit, but the it went by the wayside. I would still still like to know how much it costs these "sponsors" to sponsor the forum.

It is really nice having this forum open and honest. Thanks for that Tom.

SJ makes a lot of noise on the Findmall Views forum but I can say that it would have been deleted regardless of who made the comment or the tone of the review. It is a near certainty that anything but a 100% glowing review would upset a Garrett sponsor and put pressure on the Mods to pull the thread.

I must admit, I create quite a ruckus at views bashing Palin/Beck/Fox News and I figure I'm close to being kicked off the site by going after some of the Mods in particular. So that means I won't be able to post technical observations on their Fisher F-Series forum. No big deal. They lose-out and I'll post 100% here then.

I have no problem with that.

But it is interesting to see that there are many of the same folks here that frequent Finds, and yet little of the problem surfaces here. I can then only blame the Mods and Admin folks there as everything else is 'common' between the two: the posters and the subject matter. Maybe a good topic for a psychologist to study further...

Well, finally my short distraction is over at Finds. The folks in charge of their politically infused Views forum finally capitulated and kicked me off. It turned out the Mods had the thinnest skin after all, could dish it out plenty (and surprisingly sent me some of the foulest PMs) but just couldn't take a punch. Go figure...

Maybe somebody could post this as my epitaph on Find's Views: (Thx in advance)

****

Now more time to detect, read, nail down some hardwood flooring, build some sliding shelves and do all the things that don't involve a computer. I'm looking forward to it. A nice fresh start to 2011...

Good luck to Goody, SJ; keep up the good fight. You're on the right side and you know it.

Good luck to Detector Man, a man of a few words who always used them with precision.

Thanks Jim Vokes NY for the kind words at the end responding to my last post. We bashed heads more than a time or two but,eh, that's the nature debating politics. Good luck to you sir.

Barker, I wish you the best of luck with your back. I'll occasionally troll around Finds Views and see how you're doing. I sat through a really long Xmas service and a actually said a short prayer for you! Again best of luck.

General Ray, good luck to you. Maybe some day we'll meet in person. As I said, it would be my pleasure.

Deno, good luck hunting that field. I sure there's another half cent somewhere there. One of the best lines of the year: "I'm for free speech. Even with you libs. It makes us all think." A classic.

And for all the others who sent me encouraging PMs during my short time, I apologize for not singling you out in person, but you know who you are. My best wishes to y'all and have a successful 2011 hunting.

***********

For those of you that don't visit Find's Views, sorry for the distraction.

Yep, not-so-Sunny J. sure seemed to have an agenda. But then again, he might just be a guy who gets his kicks by arguing. We've all known people like that. I skimmed a few of his posts on the Views forum and they make his Garrett forum attacks seem tame.

His responses to AT Pro issues experienced by several experienced dirt fishers were turned into attacks on Tom personally. Somehow, not-so-Sunny missed what was blatently obvious. That the reports in question were overwhelmingly positive.

Advertiser-sponsored forums, just by the nature of what they are, often seem to be censored for economic reasons.

It makes me even more appreciative of an intelligent and independent forum like this one.

Thanks, Tom!

There's an interesting "spin" being put on my absence from Findmall. Apparently I couldn't take the criticism and left, telling the Mods to delete my account. They didn't have the guts to even tell the forum that THEY terminated my account on their own.

You guys that post there need to watch out. I've never seen three other actions initiated by moderators occur on ANY forum, metal detecting, automotive, political or where-ever:

1) Mods delete clean posts "for the fun of it"; no vulgarity, no rule breaking, they just don't like your point of view
2) Edit earlier, submitted postings to make a rebuttal appear nonsensical and without merit
3) Edit direct postings of a forum member w/o permission or notification to gain some type of advantage

Anyway, I'm glad to be back full time!

Findmall is horribly moderated. They're lucky that they're average "customer" is middle aged, because if you moderated a younger oriented forum like they do, it'd be hacked so much, that they wouldn't be able to find an affordable host. I know I've had dozens of posts deleted (mostly on the Fisher forum).

The mod on the Explorer forum has an issue with truth (and that's only one example) - go look at the packed mud ball of his recent post and see if it matches the adjacent dirt (not to mention the lack of snow and the green grass).

[www.findmall.com]

If it's all about the money, then they shouldn't hide it. New users have no idea that the absence of any problem with a detector isn't because the detector has no issues, it's because all issues are deleted.

Well, I can't log onto Garretts forum on Finds, but I can log onto the other forums there. Since I haven't posted in days there I guess they read my posts here as I never even got a warning or a message of any kind, I just can't get to the Garrett forum. This is odd as I had really good conversations about the AT Pro over there. I have even semi-defended it here regarding Monty's "review" and mentioned it positively on other forums.

Wow, they truly are like the government. It's like the sponsors are big business and they run the government which is the forum. The Finds Garrett forum stands for "Fascism IN Denial Surely"

Go-rebels,

I have been a Findmall member for over 4 years, and never even knew there was a Views forum until you mentioned it.

I posted my first response today, voicing my opinion on a certain subject, and automatically was branded a 'leftie'. ONE POST !

The guy does not know me, has no idea my political views or any values I have, but because I was against a Bush-Cheney policy, he automatically thought I was a leftist liberal who loves Obama. Plus, it was from a person who my original post wasn't meant for. The person who actually responded to my post was respectful and I thanked him for that.

They actually CHANGED your posts ?

So much for the 'Views' Forum for me...first and last post today...unless of course I get sucked back in due to stupid remarks that I feel have to be responded to...which will probably happen.

Out of all the forums, this Views forum should be the most liberal in terms of what responses can and cannot be posted since it is a VIEWS forum. Who the heck sponsors a views forum anyway ?

Hi therover61,

That's exactly how I started! It was a comment about unions, then Palin and I got a quick dose of Varmint, labeling me as a liberal JUST LIKE YOU. It's funny how he hasn't posted much since I game him a good pasting regarding some of his crazy theories on science and engineering, but now, one day after I'm booted, he's back.

It just takes one post over there.

Varmint loves to hi-jack post and go after the jugular. He's far right and the Mods support him at every turn. It's a bigoted, prejudice club over there and you better have pretty thick skin to wallow into it. If you feel you might wince at the prospect of stoning a dirty Muslim, it's not the place for you; you'll be in the minority.

Yes, at the end a very few of my posts were edited. I usually re-posted the original test using Google cache, then they bounced back to the top of the forum, making the Mods that much angrier. When I saw that I knew my time was limited.

You'll probably get sucked back in, just like I did at the beginning. You'll be labeled a "troll" and they'll be a campaign to discredit you. I let it out early that I had a few engineering degrees and that labeled me as a "liberal intellectual" who has a lazy desk job. I had a thread not too long ago arguing the value of an education... an EDUCATION. The cronies argued against me. Can you believe that???

I always thought that if you kept the discussions clean, and on point, you'd be allowed to post freely. I mean, that's the point of any forum, and one devoted to politics and religion is necessarily going to get heated at times. But the old-timers, which included many of the Mods, just couldn't argue on the side of prejudice and ignorance and I exposed them time after time. I stirred the pot with a heavy dose of criticality focused on Palin, Glenn Beck and Fox News and the they went berserk. Go figure...

Good luck to you sir. I'll be watching for you.

And you never know where a Phoenix will rise next...

Go-reb...I don't think I am going back to that forum. I got a your welcome from the poster I was responding to because I thanked him for being respectful which was great, but I am not going to get involved ( at least I hope I don't).

Ya never know though...one post can stir me up !

Well, Find's a free forum... and doesn't cost you anything. We have Tom's forum which is a class act IMO. SO I am asking that everyone in this post PLEASE drop it and keep this forum clean and neat as it has always been in the past. Coming here and bitching about somewhere else just degrades our nice community here!

Thank you!

"Happy hunting" - Schultzie

This whole thread got started because Nasa Tom, Keith Southern and other experienced dirt fishers gave honest reviews and said on another forum that there was an issue with at least some of the Garrett AT Pros.

The attacks on Tom by one specific person were relentless, nasty and personal. And all the threads (and references to the detector issue) wound up deleted.

Personally, I appreciate hearing experiences my fellow dirt fishers have had on other forums. If you can't hear about it here, where else are you going to hear about it?

Schultzie, I think Marcomo summed it up pretty nicely. Perhaps you aren't in the loop but we aren't bringing anything here, rather it is tied to here due to the before mentioned review and follow up actions. It was me who posted Toms review over at finds but not with a bad intention, rather because it was a good review with some minor criticisms. I don't see a correlation between degradation of this forum and expressing ones self. Unfortunately, the attacks over there made it so we couldn't express ourselves and then those of us who still spoke of any issues were then banned.

It may appear as bitching to you because you weren't affected but perhaps just not yet... Not to over blow things but, this situations over at finds reminds me of this:

"They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."


I think we will all make sure to not let this take over the threads here though.

Finds is a really big site and their forums related to the Minelab units are probably the most comprehensive on the web. There is tons of good material on the Sovereigns, Explorers and Etracs there. Many of the good threads here get linked on their Fisher site with some kind of phony, editable link, for those that don't know about this place.

It is their non-metal detecting sites where things get dicey. Like I said earlier, their politically charged VIEWS site will get you banned from their entire website if you argue with conviction anything Center or Left. No more posting to their Fisher F-Series forum if you upset some guy calling Obama a baboon. 'Therover' is a marked man already; he just doesn't know it.

But there are many fine people over there willing to help newbies out with their equipment. Again, just stay on the equipment sites and act professional.

They have a "Stories" site which is kind of neat too. I was going to post a story and some pics about how they automatically lay brick roads in Germany... pretty cool I thought. Then I got a PM from a moderator (Guvner, Royal???) telling me that I'll be kicked off the entire site if I post one story there! In hindsite, I should have just did it. The bricklaying machine was pretty cool!

Of course not all of their moderators are bad folk. General-Ray is a stand-up character and I'd go out of my way to help this guy in any way I could. He's a fine person working in a pretty rough environment over there.

Well, now I can't log into Finds at all. Clearly they are policing the internet as well, since I hadn't posted anything there in days and was banned from the Garrett forum first and now I can't log in at all. Wow, they must really be worried about people just plain speaking honestly. I don't think that they realize they are just hurting themselves. This is much like the record industry cutting off their nose to spite their face. And of course Finds said they don't allow comparisons for our protection, sounds like Bush is running Finds aka - Fascism IN Denial Surely... or is it Homeland Security...

What I still don't understand nor think is fair, is that I was given no warning.

I read the posts over there at Finds. I didn't see anything about bashing, or untruths told. I'm scratching my head..I don't get it. There are some tightly wound folks over there...did I miss something?

If any moderators from Finds would like to explain to me why these men were kicked off the site, please, I'd like to know. And be specific if you would.
Thanks

ozzie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I read the posts over there at Finds. I didn't see
> anything about bashing, or untruths told. I'm
> scratching my head..I don't get it. There are some
> tightly wound folks over there...did I miss
> something?
>
> If any moderators from Finds would like to explain
> to me why these men were kicked off the site,
> please, I'd like to know. And be specific if you
> would.
> Thanks

I don't think you will find posts about bashing or untold truths, etc. as they were deleted from what I myself saw and beyond that were edited (when not deleted) going by what others have said. The evidence is essentially gone, unless you can find it cached in google or the like.

jim tn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SJ turned it into another BASH effort. It seems
> all his bashing threads are gone. This seems like
> the only forum one can get a serious and honest AT
> report from. HH jim tn

I wish he was gone too...

J

Hi Earthman, I did read the posts before they were gone. The response to your post (Tom's Review) was a wee bit suprising. That guy certainly interpreted something different than what was intended. He sounded like someone who just quit tobacco, good luck to him if he is.

J, ya, the internet would be a better place, for sure.

Hey Julien & Jim-----Don't say that---he may show up over here!----I can't believe I said that, I told myself I was going to stay out of this! laf-------Del

Sorry that you can't get onto Finds earthmansurfer. Remember, the Finds Mods are over here reading this forum too. You've obviously provoked them in some way and now your're gone too. I would not be surprised if all of Tom's posters with common names are taken off their boards.

They have a great interest in this forum and what we say. It's really sad. [www.findmall.com]

Again, I say stay away from their Views forum, unless you're ready for this type of exchange:

jbow: "What do y'all think of the Federal Reserve attempting to influence unemployment through policies? I thought their mandate was to control inflation?"
Kelley: "Hey, that gay guy Barney Frank runs that place!"
Varmint: "Why do liberals always support gay policies? It's written in the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998... Let me tell you more..."
Guvner: "Because jbow prefers men to women"
Royal: "That's sick! You libs are all alike always trying to tear this great country down, and he's probably a Muslim too."

And it runs off track that fast. So don't tell me I didn't warn you.

Imagine this exchange happening over here: (sorry jbow, I'm using you as an example)

jbow: "Tom, I'm running the new F85 over at my favorite site and can't get nearly the depth IDing 14K gold rings as you. I get a good VID at 16", with good discrimination of pull tabs, but at 20" I get nothing, no audio, nothing. What am I doing wrong?"
Tom: "I like go-rebels but I hate you! - Blah, Blah, Blah, all you do is complain" (yes, I got that response back too, right in the header from their Moderator).

Yesterday a poster by the name of "BJ from Okla." got into the mix for the first time. One of the regulars questioned his sexual habits given his name. Classy...

Earthmansurfer, you asked why you didn't get a warning. Well, that's not how it's done when you have little man running a cyber world as a virtual God. When you've never had any real power in life, and you're put in control of your very own virtual world, with real people entering and challenging your kingdom, you can be dictator and do as you wish. Why would he give you a warning, so you can debate him as to the reasoning of your posting? He's not interested in a compromise, or taking the time to understand. A little editing of the database and you're gone. Poof! (he thinks)

But this is the real world and there are real consequences to bad behaviour. I occasionally hunt with a few guys from work and one will be upgrading his Ace 250 to either an AT Pro or an Etrac when we get a profit check this Spring. I encouraged him to buy 'used' but he will have no part of it; he wants new. We have no decent local dealers so now we look to the internet. He has already asked me to do the "negotiating" as that's what I do for a living.

Hmmm, we have a few choices over at Findmall: Backwoods Detector Sales, DeMarco Detector Sales, Kellyco, Surfscanner Detectors, etc... Call them up on the phone, talk to them in person in a very professional manner. This is paramount: you must be professional. Get a quote but don't waste their time. Tell them you won't be buying from them due to their association with Findmall and your dealings with so-and-so, and ask them for another dealer they might recommend that is not associated with Finds. I might go back to one of them in the end to purchase, but I will be clear that it will be done DESPITE their relationship with Findmall.

Will it make a difference in the end? Maybe nothing you'll ever see but it will have an effect. I'm certain of that.

Sorry all, I'm now done with this topic for good.

And to everyone: Happy New Year!

Lol...

It is worth noting that some of the FM forums welcome comparisons and don't get their panties all in a wad if you make posts questioning a new detector. I remember when the E-TRAC came out there were quite a few people who were unhappy because they could not make it be an Explorer III. They complained and bashed ML for putting most all good targets along the 12 FE line and on it went BUT I do not remember any posts being deleted, it went on over time and calmed down. Those who were unhappy with the E-TRAC went back to or stayed with the SE and everything settled down.

On the "views" forum... G-Rebs... you have to know that you were pushing some buttons. I learned long ago to pretty much ignore it from being involved in some pretty nasty non-political flame wars on the original HCGF (Harmony Central Guitar Forum). Back in the late 90s a lot of forums were undermoderated and things would go WAY off track. I use the guitardiner.com thses days, it is a great guitar forum if anyone is interested... they also have a "views" forum, though it is called something else... it is 99% liberal and the opposite happens there, conservative posts are deconstructed and attacked line by line and the back and forth can go on for pages... but no one gets banned for having a different opinion... that is lame IMO. I have had my opinions changed before through honest debate, even if got heated.

As for me... I do not think that you, Go-Rebels, should have been banned for having a differing view. I do think that S-Jim should have been banned for the accusations and slanderous posts he made against Tom in defense of the AT... I mean, it's just a metal detector. I cannot see where you over reacted like that. I do see where you may have been pushing some buttons though... but heck, if the button is sticking out like that... it is hard to not push it. I sometimes do the same thing to the liberals on that other board... but frankly, they take it better. They will respond but they never want anyone banned. The only people i've seen banned was when someone went off the boards and actually called someone's employer and tried to get them fired... now that is a reason to ban someone. Differing political views is not a reason to ban some one from a views forum... perhaps it should be changed to the "view" forum.

The truth is the truth. We debate things, we remain friends, we vote, and we hunt together... at least we should.

Maybe things will shake out well, I hope so.

PS.. I really cannot understand why Earthmansurfer got banned from any forum. If a forum is for "advertising purposes only" it should say so. If no negative pots or less than positive reviews are allowed, they should say so. I could be wrong but I would like to know who the Garrett mod really is, if it is who I think it is... then it will explain it to me... but I could be wrong, it was a rumor only.

Julien



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2010 10:01PM by jbow.

Quote

Earthmansurfer, you asked why you didn't get a warning. Well, that's not how it's done when you have little man running a cyber world as a virtual God. When you've never had any real power in life, and you're put in control of your very own virtual world, with real people entering and challenging your kingdom, you can be dictator and do as you wish. Why would he give you a warning, so you can debate him as to the reasoning of your posting? He's not interested in a compromise, or taking the time to understand. A little editing of the database and you're gone. Poof! (he thinks)

Well said.

Quote

Hmmm, we have a few choices over at Findmall: Backwoods Detector Sales, DeMarco Detector Sales, Kellyco, Surfscanner Detectors, etc... Call them up on the phone, talk to them in person in a very professional manner. This is paramount: you must be professional. Get a quote but don't waste their time. Tell them you won't be buying from them due to their association with Findmall and your dealings with so-and-so, and ask them for another dealer they might recommend that is not associated with Finds. I might go back to one of them in the end to purchase, but I will be clear that it will be done DESPITE their relationship with Findmall.

I know several folks that stopped using their advertisers, but didn't contact them. That's probably the best route. Just stop using them IF you don't agree with who they are choosing to advertise with. Calling up appears that you are stooping to their level. I would encourage everyone to choose words carefully since this is all public record. If you hurt their potential to earn money with their site, and they've made it clear that's what it's about, then you may be called to the carpet at some point.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2010 05:12PM by Shambler.