Minelab's Multi-IQ vs AKA's Multi-frequency

No magic? Impossible. No way.

> I never wrote there as well. This thread is not ab
> out that site and is not about Lvovich and Zemlero
> yk.
> Start yr own thread and share yr pain there . Th
> at's how it's done in normal society Mr. Kustarnik
> ov. Am I right?
>
> I do find AKA guys are polite, that site is a yell
> ow press. I suppose they tried to participate and
> answer questions even negative question
> at non friendly resource.

Ok, so you are saying aka guys are polite? Decided to switch from the hypocrisy to an obviouse lying? Well, seems like it is quite typical for aka groupies.
And yes, this is a topic about lvovich and zemleroik too, since you were using them as an example. Awful example for reasons mentioned earlier. God forbid such M.D. companies.

Gastro Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > I never wrote there as well. This thread is not
> ab
> > out that site and is not about Lvovich and Zemle
> ro
> > yk.
> > Start yr own thread and share yr pain there .
> Th
> > at's how it's done in normal society Mr. Kustarn
> ik
> > ov. Am I right?
> >
> > I do find AKA guys are polite, that site is a ye
> ll
> > ow press. I suppose they tried to participate an
> d
> > answer questions even negative question
> > at non friendly resource.
>
> Ok, so you are saying aka guys are polite? Decided
> to switch from the hypocrisy to an obviouse lying?
> Well, seems like it is quite typical for aka group
> ies.
> And yes, this is a topic about lvovich and zemlero
> ik too, since you were using them as an example. A
> wful example for reasons mentioned earlier. God fo
> rbid such M.D. companies.

Do you have something to say about multi-frequency?

If you have not guessed yet, I have something to say about aka Since you decided to use them as an example of "how md company should behave", it is not an off-topic here.
So, let's reiterate this. Do you think it is acceptable that company representative was repeatedly using an offensive language in online discussion towards other participants? Simple yes or no will suffice.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2017 12:22PM by Gastro.

This is not good wat talk like this. We are not at war. We have the passion like metal detecting is. Maybe we can close this topic. This talk is going wrong and is going to wrong direction.

Gastro Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you have not guessed yet, I have something to s
> ay about aka Since you decided to use them as a
> n example of "how md company should behave", it i
> s not an off-topic here.
> So, let's reiterate this. Do you think it is accep
> table that company representative was repeatedly u
> sing an offensive language in online discussion to
> wards other participants? Simple yes or no will s
> uffice.
As I see, you have something to say about AKA , start a new thread and ask yr simple and complicated questions there
I decided to use AKA as an example since they do listen and answer questions from common detectorists

SuchMuch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ghound Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > FBS was something that i never fully understood,
> i
> > read it was 28freq or harmonics of a certain fre
> q
> > babble babble etc etc, but i soon got lost in th
> e
> > tech!
>
> Oscillogram of "28 frequencies at once":
>
> Minelab emits a series of pulses (long and short).
> There are no 28 frequencies at once.

The Etrac uses only 2 frequencies 3.12 kHz and 25 kHz

sanjuro Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The Etrac uses only 2 frequencies 3.12 kHz and 25
> kHz

Approximately:
Channel 1: base frequency 12,7 kHz and amperage consumption 110 ma.
Channel 11: base frequency 15,6 kHz and amperage consumption 95 ma.

Here is a video with etrack performance on channel 1 and channell 11 on low conductor:
[youtu.be]

Do not mistake base frequency with frequency of IB type metal detectors, it's a period of impulses.

Therefore low conductors are picked up best with 10-11th channel, mid conductors and high conductors better to hunt for with 1-2 channel. Explorer series has reversed "sensitivity": channel 1-2 is designed for low conductors

PS.
Thanks for above info goes to Radiomans, I just did the translation



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2017 08:24PM by SuchMuch.

And yes, etrack runs 1 frequency at once

Well indeed from an operators point of view, you are only guessing at what the detector is trying to pull out of the ground.

Short answer is the difference between Auto Sensitivity and Manual Sens.
In Manual you can hit an area and it becomes very busy in the headphones, switch it over to Auto and all goes pretty quiet.
Aha!
In Manual you can detect a large target from way off, switch to auto and you can run your coil fairly close to it.
Ahaa!

Can’t say I’m 100% positive, but manual seems to fix things at a certain value.
And Auto drives the sensitivity for low and high conductors independantly. Too much interference this way or that and it will shut down
the respective lower or higher frequencies.

This is where the BBS/FBS/FBS2 detectors shine, they lessen the workload for the operator. But you need to have faith in the machine to make the
best decision for you.
Same with the GB, leave it in tracking and maybe it will track out a weak target. GB manualy and hit the deeper targets

Hidden in the menu is a setting called FAST and a setting called DEEP. You can toggle them ON/OFF or you can have them both ON??
Ahaaaaa!!
Reactivity settings for the Low and High conductors can be adjusted independantly.

A lot has been written about switching it to manual, driving up the sens till you go crazy and then back down a notch.
Switching every setting ON and then hoping for the best result at a snails pace with the largest coil you can get away with.

Oh Dear, Oh Dear

BBS/FBS/ FBS2 are great recon units. With everything on Auto they give you a picture of an area in a very short timespan.
Then you can tweek your settings and clean up. Often only needs a few adjustments to tap into the desired targets.

It won’t be as efficient as a dedicated frequency and coil combination but it will provide targets and more than enough targets to keep
you happy.

ghound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FBS was something that i never fully understood, i
> read it was 28freq or harmonics of a certain freq
> babble babble etc etc, but i soon got lost in the
> tech!
>
> I was never confident in what i had, if i arrived
> at a site aiming for those pesky low conductor sil
> vers that respond well to the higher frequencies,
> just what freq was my Etrac running? What influenc
> ed the detectors choice, the ground, the noise can
> cel etc??
> What if my Etrac decided to run at 2khz and harmon
> ics of the freq or whatever way it works, would i
> hit on some big targets but miss what i was aiming
> for?
> I think i should have invested more time into unde
> rstanding the tech of FBS, but i guess i took the
> easy option and went back to single or selectable
> freq because i knew where i stood.
>
> I think this is where the Equinox will win out, if
> the user can select the freq choice within the mul
> ti freq.

HH
Johnb

SuchMuch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sanjuro Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> > The Etrac uses only 2 frequencies 3.12 kHz and 25 kHz
>
> Approximately:
> Channel 1: base frequency 12,7 kHz and amperage consumption 110 ma.
> Channel 11: base frequency 15,6 kHz and amperage consumption 95 ma.
>
> Here is a video with etrack performance on channel 1 and channell 11 on low conductor:
> [youtu.be]
>
> Do not mistake base frequency with frequency of IB type metal detectors, it's a period of impulses.
>
> Therefore low conductors are picked up best with 10-11th channel, mid conductors and high conductors
> better to hunt for with 1-2 channel. Explorer series has reversed "sensitivity": channel 1-2 is designed for low conductors

Sorry, Sanjuro is correct. Both BBS & FBS use 2 frequencies, 3.125kHz and 25kHz nominal. The "channels" are just small incremental frequency shifts above and below the nominal, but maintaining the same 8:1 ratio.

Your prior plot shows the voltage applied to the coil. This isn't the signal that's emitted; the emitted signal is a triangle waveform. Basic inductor physics.

Geotech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SuchMuch Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > sanjuro Wrote:
> > ------------------------------------------------
> -------
> >
> > > The Etrac uses only 2 frequencies 3.12 kHz and
> 25 kHz
> >
> > Approximately:
> > Channel 1: base frequency 12,7 kHz and amperage
> consumption 110 ma.
> > Channel 11: base frequency 15,6 kHz and amperage
> consumption 95 ma.
> >
> > Here is a video with etrack performance on chann
> el 1 and channell 11 on low conductor:
> > [youtu.be]
> >
> > Do not mistake base frequency with frequency of
> IB type metal detectors, it's a period of impulses
> .
> >
> > Therefore low conductors are picked up best with
> 10-11th channel, mid conductors and high conductor
> s
> > better to hunt for with 1-2 channel. Explorer se
> ries has reversed "sensitivity": channel 1-2 is de
> signed for low conductors
>
> Sorry, Sanjuro is correct. Both BBS & FBS use 2 fr
> equencies, 3.125kHz and 25kHz nominal. The "channe
> ls" are just small incremental frequency shifts ab
> ove and below the nominal, but maintaining the sam
> e 8:1 ratio.
>
> Your prior plot shows the voltage applied to the c
> oil. This isn't the signal that's emitted; the emi
> tted signal is a triangle waveform. Basic inductor
> physics.

Make an oscillogram and measure with frequency counter. That's how aforementioned data wasobtained

Frequency counter won't work, it's a sequential multi-frequency waveform. If you want to use an oscope, you gotta look at the coil current waveform, not the voltage.

Geotech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Frequency counter won't work, it's a sequential mu
> lti-frequency waveform.
You can count the amount of impulses.

I will find the pic taken from osciloscope for you

At least this forum has guys interested in metal detecting itself

Geotech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
If you want to use an osco
> pe, you gotta look at the coil current waveform, n
> ot the voltage.

Yeah, that's the drive voltage, with bad droop. That ain't the actual transmitted signal. Again, you need to look at the coil current directly. Not the voltage.

This is why I got a chuckle at how the AKA oscillogram explains their multifrequency, which it doesn't. No better than Minelab's cartoons.

Geotech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, that's the drive voltage, with bad droop. Th
> at ain't the actual transmitted signal. Again, you
> need to look at the coil current directly. Not the
> voltage.
>
> This is why I got a chuckle at how the AKA oscillo
> gram explains their multifrequency, which it doesn
> 't. No better than Minelab's cartoons.
Show us actual transmitted signal?!

SuchMuch --

You obviously don't know who Geotech is.

You are in over your head, arguing with him, trust me.

Your claim that FBS is single-frequency is false, and he's explaining to you why...

Steve

Clue....

It’s Carl Moreland - formerly Chief Engineer at Whites - now same position at First Texas.

Long experience tells me he’s seldom wrong about basic stuff like this.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Clue....
>
> It’s Carl Moreland - formerly Chief Engineer at Wh
> ites - now same position at First Texas.
>
> Long experience tells me he’s seldom wrong about b
> asic stuff like this.

You are right, I don't know yr names. But it would be interesting to look onto actual transmitted signal...
Would you pls share pic of oscillogram?

Meanwhile, I have asked AKA to provide the same pic taken from osciloscope, nit just a graph...

Here's the drive voltage and resulting TX current waveform, in a nice clean drawing:



Here they are measured on an oscope:



The oscope version looks ratty because of switching noise.

Now, looking at the current waveform, can you see the 2 sequential frequencies? It becomes very obvious, and also obvious why a frequency counter or even a spectrum analyzer isn't going to tell you the truth. Nor, apparently, will the Marketing Dept.

This is a Russian psyop.

> I decided to use AKA as an example since they do l
> isten and answer questions from common detectorist
> s

Aka employee directly offended the "common detectorist" during online conversation. Company didn't issued any apology, statement or anything else, like it didn't happened. You continuously trying to hide it and forget this issue, calling them "polite and patient". This is not what normal people call politeness.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2017 06:08AM by Gastro.

Shelton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is not good wat talk like this. We are not at
> war. We have the passion like metal detecting is.
> Maybe we can close this topic. This talk is going
> wrong and is going to wrong direction.

So, turns out that hiding awkward facts and pretending they do not exist while accusing others of lying is OK, but asking for opinion about disgraceful behavior from aka employee side is suddenly not a good way to talk?
Yes, I am at war, at war with a hypocrisy and double standards. If someone is not... well, it says a lot about that person.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2017 06:42AM by Gastro.

Gastro Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Shelton Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This is not good wat talk like this. We are not
> at
> > war. We have the passion like metal detecting is
> .
> > Maybe we can close this topic. This talk is goin
> g
> > wrong and is going to wrong direction.
>
> So, turns out that hiding awkward facts and preten
> ding they do not exist while accusing others of ly
> ing is OK, but asking for opinion about disgracefu
> l behavior from aka employee side is suddenly not
> a good way to talk?
> Yes, I am at war, at war with a hypocrisy. If some
> one is not... well, it says a lot about that perso
> n.

Calm down. Have you sadistic behaviour or something wrong with you? Stop this war. SuchMuch was wrong, and it was not right is some parts, but also have right about Minelab politics. And we both know it that they sell dreams. Somtimes too much.

Shelton, I'll pretend I don't see the fist part of your msg.
Well, at least you admit that SM didn't choose a good position regarding aka. The rest is to hear it from him.
As for Minelab - I don't care what you say about it, just don't hide facts behind you own back.

I should don't protect Russian man and he knows it very well , but I know his behaviour from AKA forum. He put tones of effort to build it and build it professionally. You don't find other metal detecting forum for the specified brand with that quality. He answers always polite and made special manuals for users. Lot of work. But I can only agree with you in half part. You have right in 50%.

I'm not arguing the fact that someone makes his best to make good metal detectors. Nevertheless saying only that was a cherry picking of a better facts from one side and worse from the other. It is not the way comparison should be made.

Now, guys, seems like some of you can not (or do not want to) recall what was that about Fourier series in uni. Spend 5 minutes on reading and lots of questions will be answered. [en.wikipedia.org]
And here is an animated picture how it looks like for etrack-ish waveform




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2017 12:14PM by Gastro.