NASA-Tom,

Thank you for the explanation -- quite educational and it answers many of the questions I had in my mind. In the quoted section you wrote, below, that was particularly interesting to me.

The "intuitive awareness" you mentioned, makes some sense to me; there was a point in time where I would have had no idea what such "intuitive awareness" might "look like," so to speak (or "sound" like).

BUT, I now do have some sense of when my machine is not "set" properly, based on what I am hearing. BUT -- and this is the "tuitional" part of what you said, I always look to GROUND BALANCE to "fix" the audible "unhappiness" of the machine. I was not aware that there was this OTHER way to combat thing -- recovery speed! I always viewed recovery speed as something that a). affects the "duration" of the tonal response of a target, and so b). raising the TRR might allow better "separation" of target responses due to the now-shorter duration each target's "audio report." HOWEVER, it has never been a setting, due to prior lack of undertanding, that I would have used to achieve a quieter, more stable, or "happy" machine. But, now that I have a bit better understanding of this, I can hopefully begin to employ adjustments to the TRR to my advantage. You seemed to imply that if you can't "quiet" the machine sufficiently, with a ground balance, that bumping the TRR up a notch, and THEN re-balancing, is how one can attempt to find the machine's "happy place" on a given site.

This is really good information for me to know. Tuitional -- and I consider learning something new to ALWAYS be a good thing!

Thanks for taking the time!

Steve

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> How do you find max-Quiescence (max-Q) for your = El
> ectronics........VS........dirt/conditions. It doe
> s NOT require a "Design Engineer" level-of-underst
> anding. It requires the "intuitive-skillset-of-awa
> reness"....... of "how" the detector is CHATTING.
> --It IS telling you. --It IS talking to you.
> --Can you "sense" it. ---------What it all boil
> s down to is: smooth AND "clear/intelligible" audi
> ble reporting. If your detector is: whaba, whaba,
> whooo, whooo audio feedback. There may be a out-of
> -whack Ground Balance issue. Same with high-tone b
> lurry hums. And if Ground Balance can't correct it
> ; change to a different Recovery Speed............
> (usually a slight bump higher).................whi
> ch THEN gives a new set of adjustable parameters t
> o Ground Balance.

With just over 1/2-Century of coil-swinging experience under my belt.......... I am TRYING to figure-out/impart/convey: WHAT subconscious 'gut' ....made me lock-up my brakes on a deeply buried and handicapped target..........................VS........................a novice simply passing over ---what would appear to be--- a nasty, very weak, scratchy "THAT'S JUST GROUND NOISE" target.
I try to answer what folks would not think of...................... and/or: what folks would never think to ask.
If I paid attention through/with my experiences.................. there "SHOULD" be a little bit of skillset that I might have accrued . , . , . , . , . that I could possibly impart.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> With just over 1/2-Century of coil-swinging experi
> ence under my belt.......... I am TRYING to figure
> -out/impart/convey: WHAT subconscious 'gut' ....ma
> de me lock-up my brakes on a deeply buried and han
> dicapped target..........................VS.......
> .................a novice simply passing over ---w
> hat would appear to be--- a nasty, very weak, scra
> tchy "THAT'S JUST GROUND NOISE" target.
> I try to answer what folks would not think of.....
> ................. and/or: what folks would never t
> hink to ask.
> If I paid attention through/with my experiences...
> ............... there "SHOULD" be a little bit of
> skillset that I might have accrued . , . , . , . ,
> . that I could possibly impart.


Many things in our subconscious we can't put on paper or spell out . . not sure there are words to describe the gut knowledge of "I just know". It seems there is a space in our minds that hold this knowledge and this knowledge is acquired as a byproduct of doing something for a long time.

One of our thought-processes going into Manticore....... that I should share (so you guys don't think we're too crazy!.......or overlooked something) =

Not many options for customizable 'save' programs. Why? =
For instance = There are 5 very customized programs for inland hunting....... within all of the: "All Terrain" programs. One of them is bound to (nearly) meet your specific/exacting needs. You may find that it is 'close' to HOW you would set it up. Sooooooooo........ you may alter it to your exacting needs......by tweaking a couple of things/parameters ....within one specific All Terrain Mode. Now....... it is exactly what you 'need'.......and how YOU want it set up. When you turn 'OFF' the unit........ it'll remember exactly how you had it set up.......within that All Terrain Mode. Also......... IF you decide to change Modes.............then....... you decide to change back into your specific All Terrain Mode that you tweaked........ it'll still remember/be-set-up.... just exactly HOW you tweaked it. Nothing is lost. THAT is your 'custom program'...... saved!!!
If ........ for some reason......... you no longer like how you set up your customized program in that specific All Terrain Mode......... ,,,,,,,,,,,, ............ you can go back into that specific Mode selection........ and hit the upper-Right softkey (which allows you to edit that specific Mode)........ and hit RESET. Then..... the Manticore will reset (back to factory presets) ONLY for that specific Mode......ONLY. (((All other Modes will remain in their customized settings that YOU altered/changed....to your likings))).

Day 7,563 Still waiting for the Manticore! Feels like it any way. lol Not to worry though the beaches are sanded in bad! I have had at least 2 times I could have gotten one online but trying to wait for my local dealer. He seems to be one that is only getting a couple at a time.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One of our thought-processes going into Manticore.
> ...... that I should share (so you guys don't thin
> k we're too crazy!.......or overlooked something)
> =
>
> Not many options for customizable 'save' programs.
> Why? =
> For instance = There are 5 very customized program
> s for inland hunting....... within all of the: "Al
> l Terrain" programs. One of them is bound to (near
> ly) meet your specific/exacting needs. You may fin
> d that it is 'close' to HOW you would set it up. S
> ooooooooo........ you may alter it to your exactin
> g needs......by tweaking a couple of things/parame

> ters ....within one specific All Terrain Mode. Now
> ....... it is exactly what you 'need'.......and ho
> w YOU want it set up. When you turn 'OFF' the unit
> ........ it'll remember exactly how you had it set
> up.......within that All Terrain Mode. Also.......
> .. IF you decide to change Modes.............then.
> ...... you decide to change back into your specifi
> c All Terrain Mode that you tweaked........ it'll
> still remember/be-set-up.... just exactly HOW you
> tweaked it. Nothing is lost. THAT is your '
> custom program'...... saved!!!
> If ........ for some reason......... you no longer
> like how you set up your customized program in tha
> t specific All Terrain Mode......... ,,,,,,,,,,,,
> ............ you can go back into that specific Mo
> de selection........ and hit the upper-Right softk
> ey (which allows you to edit that specific Mode)..
> ...... and hit RESET. Then..... the Manticore will
> reset (back to factory presets) ONLY for th
> at specific Mode......ONLY. (((All other Mo
> des will remain in their customized settings that
> YOU altered/changed....to your likings))).
We get 5 ferrous limit options to customize and quickly chose. Why can't we be given the same on in the Discrimination Pattern mode? This seems to be a simple addition? I would like when toggling through each custom option the front page changes as well. I don't like scrolling across and hitting the edit button just to see the program I made. If it changes for preset and custom then it can change for custom 1,2,3 and 4? The same goes for the discrimination patterns if we are given more? I think switching to non glare screen protectors should be in order as well. I know these are perhaps small in the big picture? But it just doesn't make sense to me? Maybe the ability to make and save programs on the etrac has spoiled me? But that is what, 14 year technology...

khouse........some interesting thoughts. They WILL be looked at!

I dont know if this was talked about yet, but please forgive if it has. Then I missed it.
When the Equinox first came out I remember the issue with bottle caps it had. Then we figured out switching the detector into a higher single frequency and then look again at the ID #s that that was helpful determining if we had a bottle cap or not compared to a good non-ferrous target.
Well my question to you Tom is now on the Manticore, can we now again take advantage of switching over to a single frequency to help us not only with bottle cap id but to determine if what the 2D ferrous line /non-ferrous line is showing us. In other words, Im hunting in multi- freq and get a questionable target with iron mixed in on or near the 2D non-ferrous line. If I switch over to some single frequency, will that clear up the screen/ tone ID? Make my decision to dig or not easier? Thanks, Steve

Steve,

I may be wrong, but I do not believe the 2D screen/target trace works in single freq. mode. With that said, you should be able to deal with whatever bottle cap issue you have (with the possible exception of the newer, zinc-coated ones) using "limits" settings...

Steve

ozzie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Many things in our subconscious we can't put on pa
> per or spell out . . not sure there are words to d
> escribe the gut knowledge of "I just know". It see
> ms there is a space in our minds that hold this kn
> owledge and this knowledge is acquired as a byprod
> uct of doing something for a long time.


Well-stated, ozzie.

ShovelNose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Day 7,563 Still waiting for the Manticore! Feels
> like it any way. lol Not to worry though the beach
> es are sanded in bad! I have had at least 2 times
> I could have gotten one online but trying to wait
> for my local dealer. He seems to be one that is on
> ly getting a couple at a time.


If misery loves company you are not alone. My small dealer just says as soon as I hear something, you will hear it.
Also was tempted to jump to Cabelas but am supported my vet owned dealer.
As you say, beaches are sanded in. Plus the gubment rushed to ‘fix’ erosion from Ian and the other storm that most people could not see.
And this is on the east coast of FL.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> With just over 1/2-Century of coil-swinging experi
> ence under my belt.......... I am TRYING to figure
> -out/impart/convey: WHAT subconscious 'gut' ....ma
> de me lock-up my brakes on a deeply buried and han
> dicapped target..........................VS.......
> .................a novice simply passing over ---w
> hat would appear to be--- a nasty, very weak, scra
> tchy "THAT'S JUST GROUND NOISE" target.
> I try to answer what folks would not think of.....
> ................. and/or: what folks would never t
> hink to ask.
> If I paid attention through/with my experiences...
> ............... there "SHOULD" be a little bit of
> skillset that I might have accrued . , . , . , . ,
> . that I could possibly impart.
I can sum up the 2D screen like this. There can be so much visual information going on at the same time. Little dots and smears. Sometimes there's just 2. Sometimes connected. Sometimes not. Sometimes much more. Some are close on the screen and sometimes they are spread around. I find myself forgetting there is even a 2D screen and just start digging on solid targets. Other times I hear something. You can call it a gut feeling or Taco Bell? I then scrutinize the screen and there it is. My gut feeling converted to a visual display. So the audio nuances a lot of people mention are now on display with the 2D screen. So, if you have difficulty picking out audio nuances then the 2D tool is what you need. Having both the 2D and gut feeling is even better.

Steve....... you now have the ability to adjust the Ferrous Limits 'Lower'....... to much better handle steel bottle caps.
You can also see a smeared vertical trace on the 2D screen.......over a steel bottle cap.
You can also hear more of a 'warble' on a steel bottle cap.
BUT........ there are certainly some bottle caps that simply land on: dead-center of the 2D screen....... indicating zero ferrous. For THOSE types of bottle caps; yes, you can switch to a single frequency.......for yet another data-point.

Thank you Tom for that explanation. But if I am in an area where there are loads of nails and not any b-caps, will switching from multi to some single frequency help me in making the dig no dig decision? Lets say there are smears, dots, elongated dots everywhere on the 2D screen, will a single frequency help with giving me a cleaner audio? Like SteveG said, can the 2D screen even work in single frequency? Nut shell, does going to a single frequency help out in determining the signal in loads of small iron? Thank you, Steve

Steve..........there is a TON that can be taught here. (Not sure I have a full plate of time).

Contrary to popular belief........ the 2D screen DOES work in SINGLE FREQUENCY; yet, in a very different fashion. Still usable; yet, less data than the 2D screen whilst in Multi-freq.
Multi-freq still presents a larger painted 'splatter' on the 2D screen......that Ferrous implements usually generate. . . . . . as compared to Single freq.
I look at Single freq as: SIMPLEX 2D data.
Multi-freq presents: COMPLEX 2D data.
Even the Fe ID numbers are different whilst in Single freq. --- ((( Fe numbers are underlined in red. CO numbers are black )))
Switching to Single freq....DOES give some intel/input; yet, ........ not even close to the full-spectrum intel package of Multi freq.

I have dug silver dimes that smeared/splattered on the 2D graph. I have dug/recovered nails that have generated/presented a very distinct, perfect SOLID, well-defined dot.....perfectly centered on the non-ferrous line on the 2D graph.
Real-World Bottom Line = IT IS ALL WITHIN THE EMBODIMENT OF THE AUDIO

Kinda stating-the-obvious = When a silver dime generates a 'splattered/smeared/elongated' mark on the 2D graph....... there is some iron in close-proximity of the dime. (Yet........the 'audio' is TELLING).
There are some annealed iron implements that generate a perfect, clear, bright, brilliant-black dot....on the 2D screen..........never giving a clue they are ferrous; yet, will aggressively/violently stick to a magnet.
It is not a perfect World. But is sure is a interesting one!!!
Rely on your EARS. Use the 2D screen as a 'secondary' data-input.....intel-resource.
Master = AUDIO
Slave = 2D screen

The Manticore has a Ferrous number & a Conductive number like the older Explorer units?

Steve....... the Ferrous numbers range from -0 to -99
The non-ferrous numbers range from 1 to 99.
They are NOT displayed at the same time...................nor................... does a ferrous target give you BOTH: Fe & CO readings/numbers at the same time. NOR does a non-ferrous target give you Fe & CO numbers.
BUT........... all is NOT lost! The 2D display (in graph-form) shows you all Fe & CO characteristics of detected target.

Thank you Tom for taking the time explaining this to us. Now I get audio is king, repeat audio is king. Those times you mentioned that your detected iron was laying right on the non- ferrous line in the shape of a nice round dot, was your audio telling? did you know without a doubt it was going to be iron. Do you think in that instance if you switched over to some single frequency, the audio would of been just as telling as in multi -frequency? Thanks again Tom, Steve

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Steve....... the Ferrous numbers range from -0 to
> -99
> The non-ferrous numbers range from 1 to 99.
> They are NOT displayed at the same time...........
> ........nor................... does a ferrous targ
> et give you BOTH: Fe & CO readings/numbers at the
> same time. NOR does a non-ferrous target give you
> Fe & CO numbers.
> BUT........... all is NOT lost! The 2D display (in
> graph-form) shows you all Fe & CO characteristics
> of detected target.

NASA-Tom,

Just to reiterate something I have said before, I do think the decision NOT to display 2-number VDI (i.e. FE AND CO), or at LEAST allow it as an "option" in the settings, is unfortunate. They are calculated (in the background), and having them AVAILABLE to us would, I truly believe, make things so much simpler to understand (for folks without prior FBS experience), in terms of the relationship between FE-CO numbers, and the plots occurring on the screen. Even for me, who has been an FBS user for 12 years, I very much would like to see "FE-CO" VDI, or at least the option to "turn on" the 2-number system if one so chose...

Also, I am surprised to hear that FE values (along with CO values) can be calculated with any skill whatsoever, in single freq. I was almost certain that it took multiple looks at a target, with different frequencies, to generate an "accurate" FE-CO ID. Was I wrong? OR, is the FE approximation in single freq. simply VERY crude? It seems you may be kind of alluding to that, but I just wanted to be clear. Again, I would have bet money that accurate FE-CO data requires multiple looks at a target using various different frequencies (and then utilizing some kind of algorithm in the software...)

Steve

Silly question so early on in the release, I have had my ManEnuff for just over two weeks now and love it.
If and when updates are available,will there be a specific program download as in the CTX and the Equinox?

Steve.........For example = I dug a 2" piece of steel 16-Gauge wire (a little smaller in diameter as the lead of a pencil.........and.......a little smaller than coat-hanger wire)...... that ID'd perfect (non-fluctuating) ID of '58' on the Manticore.....whilst in All Terrain High Conductors Multi........that painted a perfectedly brilliant tiny BRIGHT 'dot' ....dead-center on the Non-ferrous line of the 2D screen. The perfect 'dot' never changed.....as I rotated my body around the target whilst continuing to sweep the target. The ONLY slight clue that I had was...... the audio appeared to be minutely' elongated in a part/portion of the body-rotation; yet, (once again) the 2D graph NEVER fluctuated. I thought I was digging a tilted Indian Head penny. I did NOT try Single Frequency; yet, I do believe Single-freq would have imparted/conveyed a bit of a different intel package. Maybe somewhat of a clue that the target may pose Fe properties. I also would have liked to know what/how the Deus-2 would have ID'd this target IN the ground. ((( Things/ID's change....... once out of the ground ))).

steveg......Yes. Whilst in Single-freq........ the approximation of iron ID is crude.,.,.,.,., not even close to the full-spectrum intel package of Multi-freq. -----But.......there is still 'some' intel that can be gleaned.

Dino.........Yes. When updates are created/invented for Manticore.........there will be a specific program download platform that will be needed.....in order to install software updates.

I'm with Steve, really thought we would get the option to see both values like we did on the FBS, and FBS 2...

Tom, Now that a few videos are starting to get out using the manticort,it appears that the manticort is somewhat better than the nox at determining FE from non-FE.However it looks to me that an inexperienced user would still dig lots of iron.But,you are an experienced user.Can you put a gauge, %, number on how much better the manticort is over the nox at determining FE from non-FE targets when a person learns this new machine? If I can just get a glimer of HOPE that the manticort is a little better and a tad deeper,I WANT TO BUY ONE. Thanks

BamaJoe -- I know you are asking NASA-Tom, not me, so I will try to be brief, but...

The amount of "control" that we are given, on the Manticore, to adjust how an iron target reports, is unprecedented. Each new user of the Manticore needs to wrap their mind around this, and it revolves around the LIMITS settings.

Before I say what I'm about to, I do want to acknowledge the obvious -- that there are some iron targets, as we all know (some square nails being among the biggest culprits in my experience) which simply will do an outstanding job of masquerading as a high conductor, i.e. a very effectively "falsing" nail. There just will be; I think it's fair to say that ALL modern high-gain detectors do this (to varying degrees). It can be mitigated to some degree (moving out of All-Terrain High Conductors, to perhaps All-Terrain Low Conductors, for instance). BUT -- it's just the nature of the beast, of course; there will be some iron targets whose falses sound so good, that we are compelled to dig. But, of course, this is a very small percentage of iron targets. On the Manticore, these are the ones that will plot -- at least some of the time -- right on the "zero line."

BUT, ASIDE FROM those specific targets, here is what I was wanting to say...by utilizing your limits settings, you can -- to a very substantial degree -- dig as much or as little iron as you want to.

Here is something that I think a good number of prospective Manticore users don't realize: if you take a nail that IDs solidly as iron, on your Equinox...i.e. no falsing emanates from this nail...you can set your limits "tight enough" (medium to high values) so that it reports exactly the same way, on the Manticore. Nothing surprising there. BUT -- the part I think some do NOT realize, is that you can ALSO set your limits "loose enough" (i.e. near minimum values) such that the very same nail will report solidly and consistently, as a "high conductor." In other words, it will very much sound like a "good target." This is something that needs to be understood; this is how much "control" we are given, with the Manticore. "Limits" are essentially a "sliding scale" that asks us the following question: "for this nail, on a scale from 100% to 0%, how much of the time, as you rotate around the nail while sweeping it with your coil, would you like this nail to report with an 'iron grunt,' as opposed to a non-ferrous high tone?" If your answer is "I want iron grunts 100 percent of the time," then run your limits at the maximum. Doing this will assure that the nail reads entirely as "iron grunts" (UNLESS it is one of that small subset of nails that false so solidly, and sound SO good, that they are actually reporting on the "zero line," at times...in other words, they CAN'T be "limited out"). MEANWHILE, for the other 95% of the nails however, you can absolutely achieve your "100% of the time I want an iron grunt" goal, for that given nail, by maxing out your limits. On the other hand, if for some crazy reason you want 0% iron grunts, or in other words, you want this nail (and all other nails) to report 100% of the time as a non-ferrous target, then you can accomplish THIS goal, as well, by running your limits to the minimum. Of COURSE we wouldn't WANT to do this, but I wanted to show that it is POSSIBLE on the Manticore, to try to drive home my point here.

Bottom line, Manticore users will have to wrap their brains around this idea, because I hope what I'm saying here makes it obvious that your limits settings can DRASTICALLY change your experience, with respect to the Manticore's iron performance. If one does not understand this, it can literally be the difference between someone new to the machine saying "this is the best machine in iron that I've ever used" (proper limits settings), OR -- on the very same day, very same targets, saying "this machine is the worst machine I've ever swung (limits set improperly/too loose); all I'm doing is digging nails that sound really good; Minelab really screwed up this machine...when are we getting a software update to fix this?"

Hopefully that makes sense. Moral of the story? Take the time to LEARN what limits do, and WHY, and meanwhile ignore 95% of what you hear about "how well the Manticore does in the iron" on YouTube. from people swinging Manticores. Reason being, at this very early stage in the game, ALL OF US (except for NASA-Tom and maybe a few others) are FAR, FAR too inexperienced with this machine to a). understand all of the nuances in the audio that alert us to iron targets that may be masquerading as a possibly good target, and b). to fully grasp the incredible degree of control we have, via the limits settings...and how to use the limits settings effectively (some long-time FBS users excluded).

That's my two cents, even though I was not asked to contribute them!

Steve



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2023 06:53PM by steveg.

Any help from anyone is appreciated.Thanks steveg for your input.I guess what I'm asking in a more simple way is,if we learn to use the manticort, learn the audio and 2D nuances, will our FE to non-FE ratio on target digs come down? That answer should be "YES" comparing a $1000 to $1600 machine.Then with this more modern hardware and software and price,how much better will my iron/no iron finds ratio be at normal and fringe depths?It should be at least some better...and the people that are testing ought to be able to give us something...yes a good reason for a current NOX and CTX3030 owner to buy.Listen I love minelab but if the manticort isn't capable of a little better at discriminating iron a little deeper,then I'll have to wait.Please someone help convince me to buy one.

Joe....... WHAT steveg SAID!

Additional info:
In Factory Presets...... the Manticore is approx 4% better at ID'ing iron............... thus/therefore..........4% less iron-falsing rate.
BUT......... then you add Ferrous Limits.......Upper & Lower......(and compare it to EQX Fe & F2).,.,.,.,.,.,.,., and the Manticore adjustability thereof. HERE is where it really makes a difference:
I will use myself (my hunting settings & mindset) via example =
I hit a new (to me) site. After about 12-15 minutes of hunting this site.......... I learn that I can run Ferrous Limits: Upper on '5'........ and Lower on '3'. Deliberately: On purpose..... (to my brains calibration likings)......this allows all of the nails to 'false' (as a non-ferrous target) 30% of the time......during body-rotation around target whilst sweeping. (Most normal/rational folks would not tolerate this!). If there is even the slightest bit of non-ferrous metal in close proximity of the 30% falsing nail.......... the 30% falsing goes up to a much higher %-number. For instance....... a square-nail at 9" deep is high-tone 'falsing' 30% of the time. BUT...... this time..... just 1-inch below the square nail (at 10" deep) resides a Shield Nickel. Even though the Nickel is deeper and weaker than the stronger signal from the (shallower) square nail.......... the detector is now: non-ferrous tone FALSING....MUCH more........ say: 87% of the time. HUGE delta/difference! ------You are now POSITIVE that MORE than just a (ferrous) square nail exists. It takes VERY little...... to upset this 30% falsing "BALANCE"........and that 30% falsing VERY RAPIDLY (asymptotically) launches up in percent. Dead giveaway. Huge clue!

Joe. Also. The Manticorps is only a few percent deeper than EQX at inland/turf/dirt sites. Fact!
BUT. Implementing Noise Cancel LONG PRESS.......... and.......... on average........ the Manticorps is (my overall nominal-median average....thus far)..... the MC is approx 23% deeper than EQX. . . . . . . as long as you THEN employ higher Sens numbers before & after LONG PRESS.
If you (mostly) hunt sites that have little/no EMI...... stick with the EQX.
If you hunt the beach...... get the Manticore. It is MUCH deeper (especially on fine gold) than EQX.
Setting up the controls/settings fairly well....... is 'key' to Manticore (and all other detectors/brands......for that matter).

Tex & Steve....... no intent (yet) on implementing any form of Fe-CO duel numeric digit readout.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tex & Steve....... no intent (yet) on implementing
> any form of Fe-CO duel numeric digit readout.

NASA-Tom,

You said "yet." I will take that as a sign that there may be SOME hope that this occurs at some point!

To hopefully INCREASE this level of "hope," I am going to target the rest of this post to the folks at Minelab, if any of them may possibly be reading here...

I hope that all of the folks at Minelab, involved with the MC project, will take the time to consider this. I hope that these folks can be convinced that IF FOR NO OTHER REASON (and there are others, for me), SEEING the two numbers, FE and CO, instead of just the CO, would in my strong opinion clear up SO MUCH for so many (especially non-FBS) users, regarding the 2D screen, and regarding using limits settings, etc. EVEN IF the engineers can not see how this helps "detectability" of a target in any way, and thus are "down" on the idea, I hope they can come to see that having the two numbers available is, if nothing else, is TUITIONAL to a new user trying to learn the machine! It is TUITIONAL in terms of WHY the target plots/trace are located where they are (i.e. understanding that target IDs on the MC are in fact coordinate pairs, plotting on an 2-dimensional, x-y Cartesian coordinate system). And further, it is TUITIONAL in terms of coming to realize WHAT you are actually doing with your limits adjustments (i.e. that you are essentially DISCRIMINATING BY FERROUS NUMBER).

This -- though it may be entirely clear to an engineer that has been working with MC for the past several years -- is something that is not entirely clear to FAR too many new, and prospective, Manticore users. And a good bit of the reason for that, I believe, is to a large extent BECAUSE Minelab is "hiding" the other "half" of the target's ID! Why show GRAPHICAL PLOTS of a target's 2-number ID (FE-CO), and yet not really ever acknowledge explicitly that that OTHER (invisible) number (FE) even exists? And it not only EXISTS, but is an integral, extremely important value, as it is THIS VALUE that our "limits settings" are 100% based on! Utilizing the Manticore to its fullest degree means we have to learn to master the idea that with "limits," we are setting a form of "ferrous discrimination," which "discriminates" targets into either a ferrous audio bin, or a non-ferrous audio bin, based on that very numerical value that unfortunately remains invisible to us!

It's like on the old discrimating detectors that existed prior to the "digital era" -- units that did not offer VDI number, but just a tone, or maybe a needle moving along a "meter." You would set discrimination by "turning a dial," but you were discriminating entirely "blind" in a way, unless you had a target in-hand, that you wanted to discriminate out. In other words, you were trying to discriminate targets that -- in today's parlance -- registered "below" what was effectively an "invisible" CO number. But, since you were "blind" as to what that "conductive ID number" was (while trying to figure out where to set that discrimination dial) you'd have to swing, say, a pull tab over the coil, and keep blindly turning your discrimination knob "up" until the pull tab audio report disappeared. Somewhat crude, but it was the best that could be done, without "knowing" the actual "CO number" of the target. BUT -- did it then not become MUCH easier for a detectorist to fully see what was going on, in terms of setting discrimination, when VDI was introduced? THEN, a user could visually SEE what they needed to do, when setting discrimination. In other words, they could then see that "OH -- this target registers a '50' VDI...so, if I set my discrimination to 51, the target will be discriminated."

In essence, that's simliar to where we are on the Manticore -- trying to set limits without actually being able to SEE the number that we are trying to discriminate! YES, I know the number is "indirectly" available, on the 2D screen. But because it is "indirect," it is NOT AS CLEAR AS IT COULD BE, to many users. Imagine someone not so mathematically inclined, and not familiar with a Cartesian coordinate system. Is it entirely clear to THEM that a target's VDI on MC is essentially a (y,x) coordinate pair, and that therefore you do have an "estimate" of the FE value, that can be gleaned from the 2D screen? I don't think this is as clear to those who are not familiar with an x,y coordinate system, nor have any experience with prior FBS units. Too many folks I see posting on forums, or making YouTube videos, clearly do not fully grasp all of this, and it does not HELP their understanding when they are expected to discriminate based on FE number, when they can't SEE the FE number of various targets DIRECTLY. Again -- to repeat -- having those FE numbers VISIBLE, in an FE-CO pair, would be TUITIONAL for new users (and something even I myself would really appreciate, even though I DO understand the 2D system).

If we are DISCRIMINATING (changing the target's tone from non-ferrous to ferrous) based on FE number, then WHY NOT SHOW US the FE number, so that a new user can logically see exactly what is going on -- i.e., that it is the FE number we are discriminating, when we are "adjusting our limits settings." Why "hide" it?

I would love to have Minelab take a survey of current Manticore users, and ask whether they realize -- explicitly and clearly -- that LIMITS ADJUSTMENTS are simply a form of FERROUS DISCRIMINATION, in a very analogous way to how the standard discrimination adjustment on the MC is CONDUCTIVE discrimination. I think Minelab would be SURPRISED at how few fully understand this, but at the same time how much more CLEAR it would be to show BOTH NUMBERS, and then simply say "if you want to discriminate based on your Ferrous number, that is done by adjusting your limits settings; if you want to discriminate based on your Conductive number, that is done by adjusting your discrimination setting. OR, you can do both at the same time."

OKAY, off my soapbox. I just wanted Minelab to hear/see this!

And I promise the rest of you that I'll stop "beating this dead horse" now!

Steve



Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2023 11:05AM by steveg.

Steve,

Remember this from NASA Tom
"From the very start..... The Equinox was to be a: mid-line/mid-priced unit.
From the very start..... The Manitcore is to be a medium-high line//medium-high priced unit."

The feature you're talking about might just be for the Minelab Ultimate...the CTX 3030 replacement.

PulltabKing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Steve,
>
> Remember this from NASA Tom
> "From the very start..... The Equinox was to be a:
> mid-line/mid-priced unit.
> From the very start..... The Manitcore is to be a
> medium-high line//medium-high priced unit."
>
> The feature you're talking about might just be for
> the Minelab Ultimate...the CTX 3030 replacement.

PulltabKing -- good (although if you are correct, unfortunate) point. LOL!

Steve



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2023 10:43AM by steveg.

Thank Tom and Steve.I'm ready to buy but will wait till units are readily available.