Question for Tom!!

Tom, With your knowledge and experience, Why couldn't you build a PRO detector that could be and would be used by experienced detectorists that know what they have AND would be a step above the rest for land and for water? I heard there are archaic laws on the books as to transmit and recieve power, BUT I also know or have heard that none of the detectors come close to the max power they can be.

I was thinking even if you had to have a few grand for one, You would and could have a lot of down payments cause some would do anything to be put on the list to get one.

I am new here and maybe WAY off base BUT it seems to me that you have all the knowledge it would take to make a killer machine WITHOUT reinventing the wheel, so to speak.

I myself would LOVE to dig 2' or deeper underwater in the sand or muck to dig up the wonderful old gold rings, be able to interchange coils and headphones and have a SOLID FRESH water machine that is as small as the CZ-21 and not as long and ugly as the Excal. I love my machine hipmpounted and the Excal looks too awkward for it. I also love my machine silent as to hear the boats and jet ski's that have NOOOO idea what a dive flag is.

If this has been asked before OR if I am too off the wall, I will appologize now and will soak my head in a lake sometime soon!!

Economy is bad and it takes capital and tough for the small guy to make it in this atmosphere comes to mind.

Have a neighborhood early forties expert tool and die maker that once had 40-45 employees and now is down to 4 or 5 as again tough for the small guy to make it in this economy. I once thought someday he would be rich man but now one wonders if he will have a shop or for that matter a job next year..

Dan, maybe I am wrong but seems like everything I post gets shot down by you. The CZ3D I found for people on Craigslist, the Edge and now this.

Dell started out in a garage, I really don't think it would be to hard to find existing materials and build a GREAT machine even IF the outcome wasn't as pretty as a top of the line detector. Throw some electronics in a waterproof box, use some waterproof connectors you can find online along with some waterproof switches and presto, you have a super machnine. The coil would be the hardest item to make I am sure. But, I believe if all that could be done, Market it to people on this forum. Forget the rod, let people get an Anderson or make one themselves.

I just think with Tom's knowledge, he could make a machine that swamps the compitition. And thats why I asked him.

If my questions, help or advice is not welcome here, I will go back to my other forum and still be perfectly content. I have been solo diving since march of 1980 and have underwater detected for 5 years now in Michigan at least 4 days a week. Not to toot my own horn but I also have been featured on Fox 2 News Detroit twice, have been in 5 different newspapers, From Pensylvania to Georgia, and I dive in most dangerous waterway in the USA.

And again if I am all wet with my thoughts, well thats nothing new!! Peace.

You could not be more 'on target'! It is that..... old black man with a $40K house........ but has a $80K Caddy parked in front! Welcome to America..... and the way we think and operate. I know plenty of folks of whom would mortgage TOO much .... to ascertain such a device.

About 11 years ago...... I approached Dave Johnson with this idea. Then...... about 2-1/2 years ago...... I approached him again with the same idea. The premise is based upon the large 'volume' of sales of the GPX series Minelab units. These units are approx $6000 each.... and they cannot build them fast enough to satisfy demand. Sooooooo ....... in short....... price-point (or bad economy) is not the issue. The problem is 'mindset' of the Mfr's. = The strong (incorrect) belief is that the market would/could not bear such a device. On the contrary!

I must add a flyer/stipulation to such a device..... should it ever ascertain inception: Such a powerful unit would irrefutably require professional training. Mind you....... the somewhat 'tame' F75 SE has already proven its abilities to get folks into SO much trouble...... by not knowing 'how' to utilize properly..... and plenty of folks have 'bailed' on this platform because of this. This is the exact/expected resultant with novice and some amateur hunters of whom had F75 SE's in their hands.

Tom, my feelings are this. Someone that plunks down, let's say, $4000.00, for a machine is more apt to learn the intricacies of the unit vs the $1-1500.00 machine. Of course there will always be the handful that have more money than brains. That group will always exist. I think Dave J, First Texas and yourself should proceed with the development of a radical, advanced detector. Very well may give First Texas a quantum leap over Minelab's offerings. Nowaday's the major mfg's are running neck & neck in detector performance, and a quantum leap is going to be a necessity, not an option, soon. If a company wants to remain profitable and viable, they will need to have offerings that are radically superior to what the rest of the mfg pack is offering. That's how Minelab did it in the past/present.
Tom D & Dave J/other talented FT employees working on a project. I think something beneficial could come out of that

Tom, this might be too tame for you but........what about the idea of buying the rights to the cz platform from FT? It sounds like they are just about done with it, especially if the word really gets around that they are not as good as the earlier units. You could offer it tweaked up and meeting earlier specs for a higher price. Might offer some variations, like the digital version with TDI numbers. You could probably sell enough to stay alive....might help you to fund the design of the new quantum leap unit.

And do NOT buy your electronic components from CHINA!! ohhh did I say that? Sorry I work on way too many computers from that place.

Hey Scuba, were you involved in the finding of that cannon from 1812 they found in the Detroit river last month?
BTW...the Excals cosmetics may not appeal to you, however I think its safe to say most guys here will agree that the Excal is the better machine.I had a new CZ-21 last year and like the Excal ALOT more. I have made a custom hipmount and rod and its way better than the factory rig. One thing to know if you dont already.... both machines are locked in salt mode, your going to swing right over most gold chains (even heavy ones), earrings, most crosses and small pendants and not even know it with BOTH machines in fresh water. I know this for a fact as I bring my machines into a jewelry shop often. My Au-21X does way better than any discriminating water machine made (on gold) EXCEPT the Tiger Shark, which will pick up all the crosses, earrings (except studs) and most chains. Only problem with the Shark is its not as intelligent machine and only has one tone and your going to dig alot more trash, but if your in a area with low trash and has been pounded by others you have a chance of finding the small gold that may have a nice size rock attached.

HH! and....GO LIONS!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2011 01:41AM by Aaron.

Of all the Mfr's of metal detectors....... only Dave Johnson (not even the rest of the FTP staff)..... and certainly no other Mfr believes in this (perceived) 'bold' risk/idea. Minelab is doing it........... and no other Mfr believes in it. Only Dave J and myself.

THIS LEADS ME TO A VERY SERIOUS QUESTION TO ALL OF YOU:

If there were a unit/platform that presented valid/justified/professional 'gain in performance'....... what is the highest YOU would pay for this platform? Your answer may justify the means/needs for inception.

I will (boldly) answer first:

I would pay $25,000.00 for a unit that could ID a Half Dime at 16". The unit must have a 'normal' size coil......... say...... 11" elliptical DD.

Keep your answer short/concise.

I would pay $5000.00 for a machine that could accurately id a coin at 16".
I am more concerned with the discrimination between gold and aluminum, of which I would pay $10,000.00 for that machine.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2011 01:48AM by Aaron.

I could interchange coils on, switch from salt to fresh water and find targets to 16". I also love the 4 tones of the CZ-21.

Hi,,,,,,Okay I will play too.....I would pay $1995.00 for a machine that could accurately id a coin at 8" and was made in the United States of America.......JJ

Great question Tom.

Id at 16", discriminate and id Au Al Fe Ag, Can work in salt water and deal with black sand. I'm in at 20k. Without beach/water options 10-12k.

Include several days of pro training prior to taking possession of machine.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2011 02:38AM by Pawnbroker _Bob.

Aaron, Not involved. I dive the ST Clair River in Port Huron, Marysville, St Clair Marine City and Algonac. A cannon would be WAY cool but I am looking for a Thompson submachine gun. Since Dillinger owned a house and lived on a lake I dive, its a possibility. I know I can keep a wood cross armed anchor found in the river, BUT I am sure they would never let me keep a cannon!!

So Tom!!! How long do you think it would take you to pay for that 25000.00 detector. With your knowledge and expertise i'm thinking less than one year.

I love the idea of small companies, making unique products. This is what will eventually get America turned around. People are once again going to be willing to pay for quality.
Chasing the China model and mass producing crap at inflated prices is going to come to an end.

But don't be fooled by China. They have the ability to produce high quality products, and if they decided to reverse engineer any of the high end detectors, they could and they
could sell them for 399.00. Were would this leave american mfg. It's a race to the bottom that they can not win.

You need the Nasa model back in America. Boldly go were no man has gone before. Your politicians aren't the ones to lead you there.

I didn't mean for this to be a political speech, but I'm very concerned about were your country is being led.

From proud Canadian!
Turtleman

Minelabs are already being conterfitted in China and if you go to alibaba.com and search for CZ-21 there is a company in Taiwan that can suposedly have 300 units per week ready with an 8" coil. Minelabs website has a list of a lot of counterfeit dealers and alibaba is one of them.

[www.minelab.com]

I am sure some will end up on feebay and will be totally substandard. We need American made without Chinese electronics, and Tom I really do believe you can prove the naysayers wrong. My 2¢


The other MAJOR question I have for anybody is ,I know there is an archaic law about the transmit and recieve signal strength on land BUT is there one for water? If not, and all of the water detectorists know how easy it is to dig, ( Ok folks, I don't mean put mail boxes on your boats!!! ) Can't a super fresh or salt water detector be made that is absolutely superior to what we have now?

Side scan sonar comes to mind. I am sure it pushes out a lot of power and probably isn't regulated. Now I am not even close to an electronics person. I chance capicators and fuses on computer parts and thats as far as it goes. I just read some of Toms' posts and if he didn't dazzle me with brilliance he sure baffeled me with bull!!! Way way over my head, but got me to thinking.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2011 03:13PM by Scubadetector.

Most of the electronics in your american detectors come from china.

Until we get a handle on China imports that are clearly counterfeit or a violation of patent rules nothings going to be produced by the US that is safe. Ive seen it in the antique business ... comes in with paper tags that meet import rules then is removed and past as originals.... even slabbed coins. This price for me $25,000 would be out of reach. As far as the F75.... I look at it as ok they at least bought one, then another from another company.... and so on. Thats a better option sometimes to an economy than buying one and not buying another. Much like a car.... produce a perfect car and you wont sell but one. There comes a saturation point. Sell a lot at first.... but you get a whats next attitude? Much like the Etrac and Xcal. There are better land machines than the Xcal.... do they not produce them in water form because they loose their identity.... like the screen TID?

Dew

Radio emission regulations ARE one of the major limiting factors. Do you want to pick up someone else's detector from the park on the other side of town/next county? Typical coil power is less than 10 milliwatts, very small. If transmit coil current was increased, say 5-fold, this would up the power consumed to 'less than 0.25 Watts', still perfectly viable with todays electronics/batteries. Reciever gain could be increased 4-fold with good design, RF interference permitting. This, alone, would add no more than 20% to the manufacturing cost. This combo would add about 70% to the depth. In theory. The ground is ultimately the limiting problem. I have no idea how 'inert the dirt' really is in Tom's state, but I doubt even half of this 'gain' would be useable even there. If your ground limits accurate discrimination to 8 inches on a coin, then all the above is useless. 8 inches is all you'll get, without complete design changes (multi-freq,etc).
Equipment-wise, there are lots of problems. Will the transmit coil interfere with the electronics? Think 10 foot long shafts. When the sun hits the coil and it twists and expands, will it false signal?(the reason many coils are/were white).
Will it detect your foot on every swing? Will it pick up so much stuff at once you'll never be able to individually identify anything?

Wow, NASA Tom, what a question...

What I WOULD pay, and what I CAN pay are two different things. If I had a machine that could ACCURATELY ID a half dime to 16" in MY soil, not the mild Florida sand (and thus presumably a dime to roughly 18" and a quarter to what, 20"?), and at the same time NOT ID most other junk pieces as a coin, could differentiate at least semi-respectably a gold ring from a piece of foil or a pull tab, such that I could sort through the trashy parks and find the hidden gold amongst the foil/tabs...I could see that being WORTH the $25,000, easy. However, in terms of reality, if such a machine were produced, and if I could get a day of training from you along with it so I knew how to properly use this machine, I could possibly get the better half to understand why it would make sense to pony up "alot of cash" for it -- but, "alot of cash," practically speaking, when referring to our personal budget and such, would likely be no higher than about $5K. I would have to finance a more expensive machine than that, through cashing in my "finds."

Steve

Pimento....... exactly on target...... and on several fronts.
Steveg........ same thing.

Yes........ dirt/mineralization is a extremely inhibiting factor....... for many. Minimum of multi-freq platform would help quite a bit..... but may not be the 'answer-all'. Technological advancements in pulse induction should also help.

If today's F75 LTD/SE can nearly ascertain 12" on a Half Dime in low mineralization dirt.......... and a new revolutionary unit could acquire the same Half Dime at 16" with (reasonable) ID capabilities....... and the cost of the unit is $25K..... I feel safe to say that the unit could pay for itself (under reasonable conditions) within about 7 months.......... even quicker to a very astute detectorist.

Yes, I have a couple of revolutionary concepts up my proverbial sleeve....... but... understand........ today's Mfr's do not like external engineering input.

NASA-Tom --

In regards to your last sentence, given that other manufacturers may not be on board, it sounds then like a new company may need to be created: "Dankowski Detectors" -- with chief engineers Tom Dankowski and Dave Johnson! Heck, you already have the website/domain name locked up...!

One other (and probably equally useless) thing I'd like to say, and this is just me personally...

I would really want such a machine to also incorporate the ability to discriminate gold from trash. Sure, EVERYONE would, and obviously if that was easy, it would have been done already. (As an aside, I still think that "mass" idea I brought up a couple months ago might be somehow utilized, as most things that ID as "possibly gold" on a machine (foil, tabs, can slaw, etc.) are MUCH MUCH MUCH less dense/heavy than gold; somehow, that trait seems to be one that could be exploited on an "advanced/revolutionary" machine.)

Anyway, back to why I say that the "gold vs. trash" ability is important...I say this because, I personally (others may differ) do not want to "cash in" many of the coins I find. Even if this "revolutionary" machine would allow me to dig 10x the silver coins, most of those that I'd be digging (that I was unable to dig with my current machine) would be deeper, and thus more often than not older -- and thus more highly collectible. And I love to collect these older coins, such that their value TO ME is very high. Now, while finding modern gold rings would be AWESOME, at the same time I'd much more readily sell those/cash them in, as compared to an old silver coin. Again, that may just be me, but if I were trying to "cash in my finds" to pay for a detector, I'm much more apt to cash in a 5 year-old gold/diamond engagement ring, than a 100-year old silver coin. Point being, if finding deep silver were the main improvement on this "revolutionary" machine, I'd LOVE that, but I'd never really "pay off" the machine in practical terms, as I'd probably never "cash in" those finds!

However, let's put that aside, and say I WOULD cash in my silver finds.

I still don't see how a $25K machine could reasonably be "paid off" in 7 months. That would mean roughly $3500 per mo. in "cashed-in" finds (that's a fairly respectable tax-free income, by the way...!) Anyway, say those are all coins, and assume an average value of $25/coin (obviously some would be worth much more, but most much less). Even given that optimistic value-per-coin, that would mean finding 140 silver coins a month. WOW. Assuming two full days of detecting per week, 8 hours per hunt, (roughly 8 hunts per month, 32 hours per month), that would be approx. 17 coins per hunt, or a more than 2 silver coins-per-hour rate. Wow.

I don't think I'm that good, even WITH a super-revolutionary-Dankowski machine!

Steve

Steve ... you are on-board with exactly my sentiment....... IRT old coins. I'd rather find a $700 1921 Quarter.......vs........a $7000 diamond engagement ring. ((( I have both..... and am MUCH more thrilled with the coin ))). I can have a certified/registered jeweler/gemologist MAKE a $7000 diamond ring for me............but............. he CAN NOT make a 1921 SLQ.

Your other thought ...... IRT gold density vs aluminum density is exactly what 'triggered' me to invent the Au-21X over ten years ago. No further comment.

Your last thought/rationale is perceptively/theologically valid; however, don't forget to add just one (of many) more "opportunities" into the equation. That being: Having 'skilled/selective' sites (the most productive) to re-hunt. Remember..... it's not just the "rarity" of coins......... but....... even a 'common date' in exceptionally fine condition can trump rarity!

I do understand all of that. But that still leaves my question. Is there a law on the books for water as there is land as to the power a machine can have? I guess I am thinking more of a water machine, Sure I love the old coins, But I find between 6 and 25 thousand a summer in gold in the water. I live off my finds in the summer. Its also a lot easier to dig in the sand underwater AND I don't have a partner that would have a cross talk problem. Nobody is around my hot spots.

So if there is NO laws and side scan sonar can put out a lot of power, Can't an underwater machine be built that will just swamp all the other compitition? Anybody willing could find enough gold to pay for that machine. My oldest class ring is a 1901, I just know there are rings deeper in the sand and muck.

I hunt for the old coins in the ground in the spring and fall. BUT if you are into savings gold is where it is at today.

One technical point: Sonar is sound, not radio.
And a question: What limits the depth of your current machine, the ultimate (airtest) depth, or lack of good accurate target ID? If it's TID related, then your saltwater/sand combination is the real limit. You may be able to squeeze another few % depth out with circuit changes, basically tailoring your machine to your specific conditions.

*****I would pay $25,000.00 for a unit that could ID a Half Dime at 16"*****


Well Tom, Your market share will decrease as the price point is raised, as will total revenue, which will limit future production, R&D, and marketing. Setting prices beyond commonly existing price-points is risky. In the end, the perceived value may be less than anticipated by the designer and your firm goes bankrupt in short order.

You may be able to manage outrageously high price-points if there is no close competitor and the perceived cost vs benefit attracts enough loyal customers, and marketing is cheaply done (mainly by word-of-mouth), and name-branding gives your product an emotional appeal (such that the novice user with their $25K unit appears smarter or more glamorous than they really are - hard to do with a metal detector. But enhanced image and ego sells.)

Consider that a certain well-balanced Nexus with a 9" factory coil is sensitive enough to detect a ~18mm diameter Durotriges base Silver Stater at 17.5" in the air. Then your competitor can about equal your depth for under $5000 USD - which nullifies a portion of your perceived value. An 1802 draped bust half dime is smaller at 16.5 mm, and would be harder to detect, but perception is king.

However, at a price-point of, say, $9,000 and your unit can reliably discriminate metals, reject junk iron, and handle super paramagnetic minerals in gold fields, and still find micro-jewelry while handling conductive salts and iron oxides without loss of depth - you probably are justified.

Scuba......... the RF power limits are comprehensive. Water and land. What's to say that you have a high-powered unit designed for water ONLY..... yet, you take it inland hunting.

Johnnyanglo......... Yes, there is justifiable Marketing-101 that shows a correct/stereotypical 'bell-curve' of price-point 'peak' sales. There will ALWAYS be folks/consumers that will be 'out-priced'..... right out of the market with exceptionally high prices. BUT..... there will ALSO be high-society aristocratic newcomers (probably University-level.... with priceless 'endorsement') that..........for the first time......... enter into this professionalism! And if you were a company that only built ONE product; that being..... the exceptionally high-priced high-performance product.......yes,,,,,, indeed..... you would incur substantial 'risk'. Risk of 'too much' success....... or possible risk of 'total failure'. However; if you are a company that ALSO has MANY other products..... covering the entire price spectrum of 'target-market'..... you are in a premium position for substantial gain. To be a company that can wear the title: "Preeminent Forerunner of Technological Advancements" is a end-all/finale anchor. You are in-the-lead........... and all other entities are 'followers'. You set the pace. You set the 'bench'. YOU are what 'everyone else' is being "compared to".
Is there a risk of pirating...... cheap China copies.........ALWAYS! Are there ways to (somewhat) software 'protect' from reverse-engineering? You bet!
EXAMPLE: The nominal/median price average for a metal detector is $499. Yet....... Minelab continues to dominate the $6000 detector market via their GPX-5000. They 'share' this market with no one! They do not have a 'PIECE-of-the-pie' in regards to the high-end market. They OWN the ENTIRE pie! How much 'risk' does Minelab have? What are the specific risks? Are they immune to risk?
Shall we talk ROLEX watches. Shall we talk KIMBER rifles. Shall we talk GUCCI purses? Now we are talking of companies that ONLY have high-end products. What do THEY risk? Did/does their R&D department, marketing department.... and future department fail? Do they NOT have monies for future product development?
To accept/stay 'common' (mediocrity) is the anti-apotheosis of "REACHING FOR THE STARS". Let us strive for human advancement!
Can we penetrate bad dirt!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2011 01:38PM by NASA-Tom.

NASA-Tom --

We are definitely on the same page w.r.t. old coins. I would totally agree with your sentiments on the $700 1921 quarter vs. the $7000 gold/diamond ring.

I wanted ask though, about your quote below:


"Your other thought ...... IRT gold density vs aluminum density is exactly what 'triggered' me to invent the Au-21X over ten years ago. No further comment."


I will not ask you to further comment on the density/Au21X thing...I get your point there.

However, I would like to ask a couple of honest questions about the Au-21X...as I know little about it.

I believe it is a converted CZ-3D, right -- and I believe it is only for use on saltwater beaches, right?

My questions are --

1.) Can the Au-21X be set to run on land, in a sort of "standard CZ-3D mode," or, once the conversion is made, is it then able to operate only in "Au-21X mode?" In other words, would an Au-21X give you all of the CZ-3D PLUS the gold "enhancement," or is it either/or?
2.) Can the magic you performed in converting the CZ-3D into an Au-21X (and the density utilization w.r.t. gold vs. aluminum) be adapted/converted over in any way to a land-type platform, for pulling gold from parks/schoolyards/home lawns?

Steve

Tom,

If I missed this sorry....but can I added water proof to the wish list? 10 ft would be great! Also, $5,000 to $6,000 range.

It is a converted CZ-3D. It is not restricted only to ocean beaches. It is ALSO for swimming-holes..... fresh water lake beaches..... dry sand ocean beaches. Right now..... Aaron is the only one (in the world) that has a heavily modified Au-21X...... whereby...... I have converted the 'salt' mode on his CZ-3D to 'old-coins 3D' status....... and the 'enhance' mode is a upgraded/enhanced Au-21X.