Explorer SE Pro and Sovereign GT Discontinued

The manufacturing of Minelab's Explorer SE Pro and Sovereign GT are to be discontinued by Minelab effective 12/31/2012.

[www.minelab.com]

SO now I have the dilema. Do I stock up and get a spare GT or is Minelab coming out with a new unit?

In any event the GT is a great wet sand hunter and will be missed. My favorite Minelab detector. Long live the King!

Yep,sov is by far my favorite deep turf.killer

I doubt they will abandon the technology...

I think you will see a light weight verison...

Probably in xterra type package...


theres no reason to build heavy equipment...

They can replicate the sovereign or explorer in a lightweight unit with no problem..

I would not look at it as bad news...

Etrac is probably next...along wiht the excalibur...


Will it be an exact sovereign or an exact explorer clone probably not but I bet we will see a streamlined lightweight multi freq machine finally..


Could you imagine a sovereign in an xterra box or how about an explorer ....

they need a 1100 dollar machine...It might be sooner than we think..

Keith

yeah, thats why they made the new ctx 3030. They really made that unit light (Irony). If they do make something new, it will be overpriced. Seems to be the fad these days.

Keith - I really hope what you say is true but how long did Minelab have to replace the E-Trac/Explorer and what did they replace it with? A great functioning but expensive, heavy, bulky unit. I love my CTX but dislike the weight (though the balance is perfect). I get around on a bike, so my needs are a bit more dramatic weight and portability wise, but carrying around 5 pounds on a hunt I feel after 4 or 5 hours. Further it looks like 90% or so of CTX users bought it as a land replacement and most don't use it in the water. Serious water hunters seem to have gravitated back to water only units. Myself, my CTX is up for sale, but if I can't get a decent price I will hold onto it. (Note - my decision has ZERO to do with performance - best unit I have used.) In the meantime I am just looking for a used X-Terra to get me by until Fisher comes out with that new CZ or Minelab does what is right ;-O

If you are right Keith, I can only imagine that Minelab released the CTX first as if they released it after some light units, it just wouldn't sell well. But something doesn't make sense in this equation...

I do hope Minelab comes out with a lightweight E-Trac and that will be my unit. Combine it with the Sovereign or what you will, but make a light Deus or Fisher like package and they will come. My thinking is, Dave J. will beat them to the punch.

Hey Goldmanjace - Hope you are well and thanks for your help in the past with my CTX ;-)

earthmansurfer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Keith - I really hope what you say is true but how
> long did Minelab have to replace the
> E-Trac/Explorer and what did they replace it with?
> A great functioning but expensive, heavy, bulky
> unit. I love my CTX but dislike the weight (though
> the balance is perfect). I get around on a bike,
> so my needs are a bit more dramatic weight and
> portability wise, but carrying around 5 pounds on
> a hunt I feel after 4 or 5 hours. Further it looks
> like 90% or so of CTX users bought it as a land
> replacement and most don't use it in the water.
> Serious water hunters seem to have gravitated back
> to water only units. Myself, my CTX is up for
> sale, but if I can't get a decent price I will
> hold onto it. (Note - my decision has ZERO to do
> with performance - best unit I have used.) In the
> meantime I am just looking for a used X-Terra to
> get me by until Fisher comes out with that new CZ
> or Minelab does what is right ;-O
>
> If you are right Keith, I can only imagine that
> Minelab released the CTX first as if they
> released it after some light units, it just
> wouldn't sell well. But something doesn't make
> sense in this equation...
>
> I do hope Minelab comes out with a lightweight
> E-Trac and that will be my unit. Combine it with
> the Sovereign or what you will, but make a light
> Deus or Fisher like package and they will come. My
> thinking is, Dave J. will beat them to the punch.
>
> Hey Goldmanjace - Hope you are well and thanks for
> your help in the past with my CTX ;-)


"My thinking is, Dave J. will beat them to the punch."

If you are right about Fisher, I'll be onboard Albert.

Can't compare Minelabs light units, either light and So-so or heavy and super...Perhaps they can compromise and lighten the top of the line units and lightening the price would be nice also...Only time will tell....Gosh those guys down under must have big arms kind of thing...A lightweight Explorer series or Sov. series would sell like hot cakes comes to mind also.

Well-----My line of reasoning/thinking is: Keep your eyes on FT---that's where the next big "play" is going to come from!

Here today, gone tomorrow. Out w the old and in w the new.
That's progress like or not.

I cant see ML doing away with the money maker Xcal. Who dont own one that what hunts? Most if they have one dont need another or will pick up a used one..... HOWEVER.... what if they came out with a NEW Xcal.... maybe FBS so they can do away with BBS and stream line their machines. Most guys would try to find the money for another.... bam more machines sold. If they did it like they did with the CTS..... when all the talk was about the Deus and Bliss they took front page and sold several quieting the other two for awhile. If they introduce this Xcal just before anyone else.... AGAIN they could sell a lot of them i think. How many mods have people done.... people would pay more with a straight shaft, PP button, and the ability to change coils and headphones. With FBS they would be able to take advantage of say the Pro coil.

Dew

Dew,I have.never even used an xtera,ha

They did not cut the Safari did they...or the excalibur...

The more I think,,,,,I studied while hunting in the woods today .....we have the X-terra models....Then the Safari then the Etrac then the filler machine between the Etrac and 3030 will be? a stripped down 3030?..

In the future we might see a FBS excalibur instead of a BBS excalibur..have to get it to fit inside the tube housing though...


Keith



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2012 04:56AM by Keith Southern.

You are right Keith.... could be another buying frenzy for ML about the time others want to put there machines on the market. Wonder if whites is considering that with say the DFX?

Dew

More proof that Minelab doesn't listen to their long time hunters....

I can't tell you how many times I've read and listened to current, loyal, die-hard Explorer customers (read: ones that convince others to buy ML) say, that the ONLY things they wanted were faster and lighter. The etrac was a step backwards in target ID for those that UNDERSTOOD the language of the Explorer so it was great that they were keeping the SE.......now? I think they've made a statement that new users are more important to them than loyalty. I'm disappointed more and more with that company.

I'm begging FT to put out a multi freq machine (that doesn't misidentify so many targets...bottle caps, pull tabs, etc.). They also should really look at the "pattern" ID success of minelab's "smart screen" and consider putting something out that visually is more easy to understand than the barrage of TID numbers on the F75LTD ......OR...... a delta-pitch option that's a little more refined.

Shambler - I totally feel what you are saying. I'm not bad mouthing the CTX as it truly is a great machine and a bit sad for me to let it go. But why didn't Minelab listen? They could have absolutely killed the market with a light and portable unit (oh, and affordable). Just make it water resistant but heck, the AT Pro is also water proof till 10 feet so perhaps I am speaking to soon there and trying to justify the cost.

Minelab is a typical company (not typical detecting company imo) and unfortunately they are wanting the users to adjust and not the other way around. Now, maybe we will all bite our tongue when Minelab really releases a fast an lite E-Trac but I am not holding my breath for the reasons you listed. The sounds of the FBS machines have gone more and more digital. I'm not saying the CTX doesn't give a lot of information, but I do prefer having the E-Tracs variability setting with sounds. I just can't swing an E-Trac too long, so I won't be buying another one, unless a great mod comes out! Really sad, I just love the performance and sounds of their machines, just not the "packaging" and "weight" and the cost is a bit extreme. What gets me is that I am in pretty good shape (though I have a sensitive back). What about the many many older retired hunters that can't swing or carry around a heavy unit? This is one reason why the Deus took off like Gangbusters in Europe (and great performance.) Had Minelab listened regarding the weight of the Explorers and put out a light E-Trac, the Deus would not have done any where near as well imo.

We are both begging for Fisher to put out that light and fast CZ machine with a DD coil. I will miss the Minelab sounds, but perhaps Fisher will have something else that is addictive (like a new way of displaying data that Dave J. alluded to.)

Albert

So I have experience in the manufacturing and prototyping end of things. Before you so quickly heap scorn on Minelab and similar companies you might want to consider that what everyone wants may not be so easily achievable! There are a lot of factors in play that we have no knowledge of but I can make some pretty good guesses at.

First off if they are involved in UXO or demining equipment we are far from their major profit line. The R&D budget will reflect that. If you've ever owned a business you know that you pour the most money and effort into the best money maker or you don't stay in business long!

You want a Deus like package but with CTX multi freq performance and depth. There appears to be a heck of a lot more circuit boards achieving this hence the bigger cases and weight. Water proofing the CTX really doesn't add much weight. Just about a half pound would be my guess. With extra processing and color display comes extra power requirements and battery capacity. The GPS circuit only adds a few ounces these days.

Then with the cost of sourcing, building molds and dies, quantity production runs, etc they have to stick with certain parameters long enough to get their money back or they're bust.

I constantly run up against the equation of customer demands/expectations vs cost and I can tell you that a high percentage of consumers are pretty unreasonable! They want Porsche performance, Lamborghini styling, world class technology, carbon fiber weight but at Yugo pricing. Truth is you can't pull it all off!

Being a business owner I'm not quite as cynical of companies as many are. Unless you've actually owned one you will never, ever, really understand what it's like and what it takes to keep it in the black. Everyone says they do but they really don't. My hats off to anyone running a small company like these are and making it in the current economy.

Now, I may wish I could have a machine with Deus weight and balance, CTX performance in everything from salt water to highly mineralized outback ground to mild turf with a battery that lasts for days and then after finding it under a bed of nails sucks the target out of the ground at a Compadre price but I understand that there's going to be compromises. I may not even like the compromises for my particular use but I bet they had sound reasons for going the route they did.

We also don't know what these folks have in the pipeline. It may be exactly what many people want or close to it but because of Walmart mentality (Gimme it now and cheap) folks get upset and grouse up a storm. These things take time and if the budget's tight they take even longer! These guys don't have the resources of Lockheed Martin, GM or Microsoft. I'm patient, I swing with a harness and I'm glad for what I have and hope for something new and better to come along. Until then I'll just keep swingin' what I got!!

But trust me, product development is a heck of a lot harder then you'd think...just my two bits.

Sailorman - You mention some good points, but overall I don't buy it. And talking about profits, look at the cost of the CTX in this economic climate - just doesn't make sense. I have seen some Explorer mods (forget which model) that had a weight of around 1.5 or more pounds less than stock! I couldn't believe it but I saw the pictures. (Think it was on Find Mall.) Now, if someone can do that in their garage, I am pretty sure Minelab can as well. Further, Minelab has something not many other companies have - they have other divisions that make very high end detectors for military use and they can transport some of that tech and perhaps fabrication over as well. It really looks like they did that with the CTX and it's "casing". If a little company like XP (amongst others), essentially started by one guy who liked detecting, can shake the detecting world with the Deus, why can't a big company with deep(er) pockets AND great engineers like Minelab one up them?

Minelab could have shifted the weight back on the E-Trac, reduced the weight with Li-ion batteries (optional), lighten up the coil like the Bulgarians have, use lighter materials, put a faster processor in, made it water resistant (not proof), lose the chip in the coil, etc.

If someone can make an Explorer substantially lighter out of their garage, I don't see why Minelab can't take it to the next level.

Albert

OK, a few points. Usually if you are supplying military with technology there are agreements in place about transfer of technology to the civilian market. Also while the changes you've mentioned are possible are they profitable? Again this can require changing molds, dies, materials, even suppliers. Have you ever priced getting molds and dies made? Then resourcing a line of parts? The cost wouldn't just shock you it would probably knock you over! Further more if your civilian hobby side of the business is your lowest profit line you just don't pour huge resources into it when spending those resources on govt and military hardware will reap you much higher margins.

To be successful, profitable and to continue in business you HAVE to approach things this way. It's going to be impossible to meet all the customers demands so you decide what changes will either increase or maintain your margins. If sales meet goals it can be financial suicide to go for a major revamp if it will not increase sales and/or profits enough to cover the cost of change. Hobby metal detecting is not a large market in the world of electronics manufacturing. In fact it's pretty darned small. That makes changes even riskier because you may not get the return you need to initiate them.

I'm not saying I like it but I understand it. Like I said, unless you've been the one making the decisions in your own similar company you won't even begin to understand it. It's out of your experience base. That's not meant as a put down or insult, it's just the truth! I've been dealing with this and trying to explain it to folks for over 15 years and folks usually just don't see it. My favorite line is still "the customer is always right". That might work in some retail sales outfits but EVERY manufacturing business I've seen try to play that game went broke, fast. So you make decisions on what you can profitably meet and what you can't.

Sailorman, thanks for the better perspective of the dark side, I mean the other side. I still say if Minelab really put their minds to it, they could get creative e.g., essentially put a faster/lighter E-Trac housing on an X-Terra straight rod frame, drop the batteries behind & below on the back of the shaft. They don't need to do a complete rework. What we are saying would most likely amount to less of a rework than the CTX was - I mean look at that housing/body/stem. It looks like they partly did what you alluded to would be problematic and costly. I mean why do so much work and make something so beefy and expensive? Clearly a cliche unit. It just doesn't seem like a money maker long turm but looks like it took quite a bit to get going. What most of us are asking for would be a money maker. They just are not that challenged imo at the moment. They make great units and mostly just sitting still makes them the most money. I look at how Dave Johnson turned around a company with great products, as inspiration for other companies to try and be creative and more concerned with things like ergonomics, simplicity, etc. No knock at Minelab, for what they have done with FBS and their technology has been briliant (just not that much lately, outside of some aspects of the CTX). It sort of seems like the best is behind them in a way, and they are just sitting around until they have to act. But that is business for many companies.

Now, to be fair, just as our experience base is outside of the area you know and influences us to think or be unable to think in a certain way or area, couldn't it also be true that those in the business/industry are blinded in a similar way regarding how things "need to get done"? It would be nice to see some more creativeness in the industry (manufacturing, design, etc.) instead of "Well, that is the way we have always done things around here"?

Thanks,
Albert

Like I said. I don't necessarily LIKE what's happening but I UNDERSTAND what's happening!

Something else to consider is this. You make what to you are those simple changes. Now to sell them you also have to get an FCC approval for the US market, a CE cert for the EEU and something similar for most other markets. Then you also have to convince your product liability insurer that it's a safe bet to insure. What looks simple to a consumer can cost tens to hundreds of thousands to implement!

I'd love to see some truly cutting edge developments but the world economy is a darn risky thing right now. I'm actually mildly surprised that the MD'ing community is seeing much of any new products at all. Each one is a financial risk and with the current mess the world is in it's a big risk. Granted these have probably been in the R&D pipeline for several years.

Remember that for every small to medium business that launches it's fantastic new idea and succeeds nine others fail. That breeds a lot of conservative minded survivors and investors....

Its not like these are new ideas or suggestions made.... these machines have been out for some time. ML knows the mods we do, weight and processor complaints way before they were sold. If Fisher comes out with something i can use in Salt water ill jump in a heart beat. My Xcal was in their repair shop 3 times less than a few months .... thou i like it if they dont make some changes i wont buy another ML. They seem to have the same mantality as GMC used to have ..... our customers will get what we give them and like it. Before they realized it outside companies produced what was needed .... small cars good on gas.

Dew

Quote

Also while the changes you've mentioned are possible are they profitable?

I too am involved in business and the end-of-life processes that have to occur (it happens more often in the medical industry than any other), BUT I don't believe for a second that making an Explorer with better weight distribution is cost prohibitive. If an Explorer 5 was released as light as the F75 - WOW - I'd pay $2500 for that while I'll NEVER purchase a CTX. I just think they're making poor decisions - MANY companies do that regardless of profit margin. All of this doesn't even take into account the in-line probe issue. That totally blew my mind with the CTX - they didn't even consider that most of the die-hard users have an in-line probe ..........and then they released the Garrett Propointer II ??????

Dew's right - someone else will get this right if they don't. It doesn't matter what your profit margin is when you can't produce something people want.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2012 09:50PM by Shambler.

Well maybe this is a bit off topic, but related to Minelab. I just read, someone caught a Minelab commercial on History Channel using the ETrac. Seems this particular ETrac had the new CTX coil attached. Updated ETrac in the works??? Send a fee in, download the new program, hook ETrac up to computer and update it??
John

If the AT Pro would be multi frequency Garrett would have a monster of a detector on their hands. Yes I know I have said it before. I agree some manufacturer will give us what we want eventually. As far as updating the E Trac? Why? It has a limited 5 year old processor. It's heavy. It would be a sad upgrade to FBS2 if it were even possible. Besides from what I have been reading the E Trac holds it's own against the CTX now. Except for recovery speed. Minelab needs to be very careful. They could end up with exspensive top line detectors that nobody wants. Including their ProFind.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2012 01:06AM by goodmore.

The CTX is not only faster but it is also ALOT better in iron than the Etrac. I'm not planning on selling the Etrac anytime to soon however I'm using the CTX ALOT more.

Regarding the MineLab commercial....the Etrac pro coil and the CTX coil are almost idententical except for the CTX logo on the CTX coil, not sure how how one could tell the difference on tv.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2012 02:14AM by Aaron.

Commendably constructive (point/counter-point) thread.

.... No dead ears.

I'll side with Shambler on this discussion, ML doesn't listen to the customer, really got hard of hearing once this new company took over.
Sailorman, I know about manufacturing costs too since I worked in them for over 30 years and you have some good points but ML has always
had an arrogant attitude when it comes to dealing with their customers and worse, they think they are so much better than the competition that they don't have to worry about them.

Besides the gold detectors, the 2 models that have made them the most money....guess...if you thought Sov. and Explorer then you would be right.
Now they want to ditch to 2 that made them the most money? Go figure.
They priced the Sov out of the market some time ago..... then there isn't enough money space between the E-trac and Explorer.

That 3030, there is no way unless someone was to give me one would I take it, too heavy...ML's has heard customers complain about overweight detectors for some 20 years.
Then what did they do? Retool for the very profitable Explorer in a lightweight package?....No they come out with the a lightweight Xterra series that is the worst detector
series they have made to date.

Here's the sad part of it, they could either have further developed the Musky or juiced up the xterra to where either one would likely would go deeper than the BBS or FBS series.
I really believe that but instead they rely on slick marketing.
Now having said that, I am a long time Explorer user and will have it around for a long time but ML is out of touch, I suppose making all that money on gold machines
can sort of gets their heads in the clouds....

Here is something else too for the rest of the brands, they better start listening to the customers, what they want and what they need, rather than just putting out rehash.
Like I have said before, we need EEs that like to detect...that way they can understand something when the customer speaks.

Hi earthmansurfer,

I am in Ulm, we need to get together soon. I have an xterra 705 and love it. I also have the Etrac but I really dont use it. I prefer the 705 in the woods and my Goldmaxx Power on fields.

Or is it they have really pushed the envelope as far as they can with VLF,except for bells and whistles and of course the weight thing?
John