barryny HYPOCRISY

Pass the popcorn.

Sugar coated popcorn please.

HH
Johnb

I'm waiting for Vista to fade away into the archives myself as I have no interest in them.

There are 15 (oops, one more added while I was typing this....make it 16) current topics about the Vistas on the first page, included this one and the one related to this one. The forum is flooded with Vista this and Vista that. Why couldn't they all be kept in one post instead of flooding the forum with new posts.

Or just create a second forum for Vista and those of us who don't care about them don't have to scroll through all their posts?

But as long as you keep 'Vista' in the subject heading I can skip them easily enough.

Just thought I'd add my thoughts.

HH
Mike



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2013 08:57PM by Mike Hillis.

when the new fisher comes out, we'll see it all over again. The best part is, no one is holding a gun to our head forcing us to read what we dont want to.

Exactly mike this forum has tuned into an informercial for vista's!!!!

Ok, the way I see it, Tom has spoken on his behalf. If he has rules, this site does belong to him, respect them. If anyone doesn't like them, it's a free country to start your own rule free forum.

There was a post last fall complaining about Tom's @#&&%$, whatever that meant and a link to a new forum. From what I can see, it's didn't do so well. The funny thing is the poster who was bitching is back at this one??

Tom makes the rules. Sounds like the rule maker has spoken. I personally come here because I like to learn. From the videos I have watched and posts I have read I continue my goal of becoming better with a detector. Some of the best detecting minds on the forums have migrated here to share. I like to watch a detecting video just like anyone else. But I find myself judging the operator more than the detector. Some of you men can flat out hunt. Tom included. I hope this sore goes away and we can get back to doing what we do best.

I can't believe I just read this thread.
Barry's a man who likes to play with the latest and greatest. I enjoy seeing some of these vids, as I also like the toys...

Dankowski Witch Trials

...burn witches...burn.

Ridiculous.

The best I can make of this brouhaha is that forum rules (wherever they are located) should state clearly the following:

"Henceforth, no detector dealer or distributor is permitted to post comparison videos featuring detectors they sell or distribute. They are not permitted to discuss the merits or demerits of any detector they sell or distribute. They are not to encourage people to buy or use any model they sell or distribute and/or directly or indirectly point them to a location of purchase or provide links to a site to learn more about said detectors or link to any website that indirectly leads to their own or affiliate sites, owned or operated by said dealer or distributor. Lastly, no dealer or distributor will post anything that would lead to financial gain or be construed by a reasonable person as intimating possible said profit for themselves, their families, or relatives to include employees or unpaid subordinates."

That appears to be the gist of the broken rule(s) as best as I can determine and the verbiage needed to forgo future missteps by all members.

barryny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Someone else will post for me for now on...a non
> "Dealer".


And you know what that is blatent disrespect for the owner/creator of this forum!!! I have not spoken a word to TomD in my life but i consider him a mentor with his articles and insight to help me learn detecting. And one more thing Carter you have only posted on this forum about the detectors you have a finacial interst in so dont make it out like your so objective!!! Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2013 03:02AM by Paulz-ny.

Reading is fundamental gentlemen.

But since that seems to be a dying art, and a picture is worth a thousand words:

[www.youtube.com]

If it wasn't for Tom this forum wouldn't be here to find out about the newest technology and getting the most out of detectors. Win.

If it wasn't for Barry & Carter, there wouldn't be a place for those of us in the United States to purchase any of these newest detectors that are trumping the US machines in every way. At best, you could hope to snatch a used one and be stuck depending on somebody overseas to send a unit that may or may not work when it got here. Win.

I would imagine if Dave Johnson, Troy Galloway, or Carl Moreland were to come here and begin posting, that nothing negative at all would be said toward them...even though their loyalties would lay with their current employers.

I'm having a hard time trying to cipher whether this is a metal detecting forum or a new reality TV show with bickering women.

Bottom line: It's Tom's forum and he's free to make the rules. If you don't like that, maybe you should try Findmall, then you'll find out what rules are all about. Just TRY comparing one detector to another, or saying that a manufacturer who is paying that guy makes machines that don't cure cancer or whiten your teeth in your sleep, and see how quick you are "banned for life".

Tom has repeatedly posted publicly asking Barry not to promote his machines for financial gain on this site. Seems to me the smart and decent thing to do would be to abide by that. It's a real shame this goes on here, and it would be very unfortunate if it becomes another Findmall with fascists running amok locking threads and banning left and right. But that's what the inevitable end result seems to be at this point.

And just my opinion and that and a buck will get you a cup of coffee at McDonald's, but Barry you should have taken the high road in this I can tell you that I won't be buying anything you're selling after seeing some of the posts you've made. I'm sure you couldn't care less and you'll tell me all about your guns and your skill at using them as an implied threat, yawn, hope that makes up for you apparently lack in your pants.

*** ... not to promote his machines for financial gain on this site.***

While not promoting for financial gain is an idea everyone, including dealers and distributors, can agree is equitable and necessary on this forum (and really any other similar forum) -- the exact line in the sand as to when "promotion" has occurred is unclear and really is the issue at hand. It is obvious there is disagreement as to when a dealer is promoting vs. informing or selling vs. educating. I did not consider a fair and unbiased testing of detectors as 'promotion'. Tom and others believe otherwise. So be it. But it's not a good idea to leave the exact meaning arbitrary and tenuously defined.

Thus, before people are banned for perceived infractions of unclear rules I would suggest a simple declaration be made, such as: "It is a violation of forum rules for any dealer or distributor to post comparison videos or discuss the merits of detectors they sell or distribute". If that is the standard, which apparently it is, then it is best to come out and say it is so.

Johnny, I have articulated my semantics in explicit detail....... leaving no uncertainty at hand...................................... multiple times........ over a long enough period of time so as to 'sink in'.

What's left.

Slap a gift-horse in the mouth.
Spite the hands that feed.

Tom, for what it is worth, I and many more here...really appreciate your forum.
Personally, I have respect for you putting up with the bunch of us.
However you run this forum, I am fine with it as I think you have been more than fair with your posts and dealings on the forum.

To all folks here, I am not picking sides or anything like that.
Let's abide by the rules.
We have diverse experiences and backgrounds therefore differences of opinion will occur.
Let's be respectful toward each other...no need to burn bridges.

99% of all videos I've seen of detectors are very open to different subjective views.

99% of all videos show detector X has the edge over detector Y, then you can source another video showing detector Y having the edge over detector X.

The only tests/reviews showing detailed results I've read are form some dedicated members on this forum.
Gentlemen I take my hat off to you!!

Dealers/importers running infomercials on an open forum,... hey guys you know what you are doing!!
Go over to findmall, pay some $ and get your advertising campaign running like it should, but... don't flood this "objective" forum.

As a longtime selfimployed powertools/offroad vehicle dealer with several mechanics and a lovely shop assistent who relie on our "brand name" for their income.
You learn to go through the appropriate channels for advertising, customer service.

My metals detectors,.... various brands,... are the ultimate relaxation tool!!


Bud...... Weis........ Errrr.......

HH
Johnb

I have alot to say, but have purposely refrained, until now.

I will keep it as brief as I can...

This forum is different for two reasons, as I see it -- one, freedom of expression, and two, the "technical" or "scientific," but respectful tone that exists here. Both of these qualities of the forum are directly due to the leadership and input of the forum owner, from my perspective. Simply, this forum has become the resource that it is, for those very reasons -- which, again, point back to the person "in charge" in my opinion. NASA-Tom -- while "in charge," has shown to me over time that he realizes that being "in charge" does not mean being a micromanagerial dictator, but simply means setting a tone, and treating others with respect. Respect and truth are a big deal here -- that has been proven to me time and again.

Along these lines, respect and truth are precisely what are at issue here. The amount of disrespect that has been shown, in this very thread -- to NASA-Tom first and foremost, and then to all of us here who come here to learn, and contribute, within a respectful, technical, unbiased atmosphere -- has been nothing short of unconscionable, in my opinion.


The reason, I would have thought, that NASA-Tom discourages "marketing" here, should be intuitive. The fact that this reason seems lost on some is simply amazing to me, but I'll lay it out as I see it. I am a scientist, and it is well-known in my field that to maintain integrity in scientific research, "bias" must be eliminated as best as can be done. This is part of the reason that published research has had to have "run the gauntlet" of the peer-review process, before being published. And clearly, while there are many ways that "bias" enters into the equation, one OBVIOUS and FREQUENT form of bias manifests itself when there is potential for direct financial gain AS A RESULT OF the research being conducted. Sure, some can remain "unbiased" even although there may be money to be made, but many can't; many with good intentions initially are simply lured by the prospect of financial gain, and bias slowly, insidiously creeps into the process. NASA-Tom, therefore, has set some rules, tyring to keep any bias stemming from the "lure of personal financial gain" off of this forum. The freedom that exists here to post thoughts/reviews/videos/whatever, either for OR against a certain machine or company, and the honesty that prevails here, is due to the fact that it has been implied that NASA-Tom wishes to keep the forum free from any financial interest-induced bias toward promotion or criticism of any machine or company. Criticism or promotion is FINE, based on the merits -- but NOT fine, if there is bias or conflict-of-interest involved. And since it can be difficult to discern when true criticism or promotion becomes even slightly tainted by a financial-induced bias, a "blanket policy" can sometimes be a good approach.

I am NOT here to judge BarryNY's motive; I am NOT here to say BarryNY displayed any "bias." NOT at all. I haven't even WATCHED the videos. BUT -- the point still stands, that clearly NASA-Tom desires to keep the forum free from even POTENTIAL bias that might be induced by the conflict-of-interest inherent in being financially tied to the sales of a particular company/unit. For ME, there's nothing at all personal about this. It's all on principle -- no "dealers," less chance of bias; I am in no way judging any particular person, I'm just expressing a philosophical objection to the POSSIBILITY of financially-induced bias.

Again, I do not understand why this concept is not readily apparent to all. It should be self-explanatory that if we come here to LEARN TRUTH about detectors, detector performance, strengths and weaknesses, etc., that we don't want to have folks who may have a bias due to financial considerations to be potentially tainting the otherwise honest, free discussion -- ESPECIALLY WHEN ONE'S FINANCIAL INTEREST IS NOT HONESTLY, OPENLY, AND CLEARLY DISCLOSED.

Bottom line, this is NASA-Tom's forum, and most of us here appreciate him, and accept his rules -- understanding that they are here for the good of all, to protect us all with respect to the educational process that can be obtained here. If you are here, and don't LIKE his rules, you are free to post on another forum with different rules. However, do us all a favor, and respect those of us here who are here to learn, NOT to be unknowingly exposed to what might be nothing more than a sales pitch, and above all, respect the person who owns the forum and makes the rules. Bottom line -- if this forum deteriorates to the point that truthful, honest, educational discussion cannot be shared, then it is to the detriment of all who come here for the "right reasons." That would be a true shame.

Finally, it seems clear to me that NASA-Tom -- given his obvious philosophy of not being "heavy-handed," "dictatorial," and "micromanagerial," but instead treating the members here with respect and trust -- probably does not like having to take a "heavy handed" approach. He gives us the freedom, respect, and trust to self-police, and it's usually done quite well here, due to the integrity of the folks generally attracted to this forum. From that perspective, it sure would be nice if those who do not philosophically agree with the purpose of this forum, and do not wish to abide by the rules, do us all a favor and simply choose to post elsewhere.

Oh, and CousinEddie -- this has NOTHING to do with me being a "psychophant;" it's called respect. When someone earns my respect, I hold them in high regard. Earning my respect is not easy to do, necessarily, but NASA-Tom most definitely has. That's probably something that you, who seems to be little more to me than a "shill" for Barry, probably don't understand.

Steve



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2013 01:40PM by steveg.

"Again, I do not understand why this concept is not readily apparent to all."

Steve maybe it's not that they "can't".... maybe it's because they:.....don't....want....to.....



Agreed, and WELL SAID.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2013 12:42PM by Aaron.

Eloquently stated steveg.

Steve, Steve, Steve, John & Aaron.......... with gratitude......... many thanks!
I was beginning to wonder if anyone truly 'understands'.

As with any groin/growing pains....... I have commenced/implemented a Ethics Cleansing (no typo) program of......... (((for those of whom do not understand.... what may 'appear' to be the generation of a Hitler/aristocratic society)))..... via positive educational control. I have nearly 7 years of my life's "blood" shared here........... not for me; rather, for YOU........ subsequently; I must regain symbiotic harmonious synchronicity herein........... with the understanding that it may not be obvious to some. Via the 'ripple-effect'....... the loss of bad blood ensues.

NasaTom, thanks for your feedback. I am really ready for this forum to return to it's information seeking/gathering/sharing and all in the spirit of good fellowship and fun. I generally try to stay out of controversial threads, as I have learned myself enough to know this: I don't care for confrontation when it comes to my hobby/pasttime/obsession. So I stay out of it so that I won't get a scathing retort that I sit around and think about for hours. I am likely TOO transparent on a public forum and shouldn't be so open about my shortcomings, for I have learned that not everyone is empathetic towards such post and it sets me out as an easy target. I like to keep things on the technical, maybe with a bit of self-deprecating humor to keep the mood light. Perhaps I cross the line sometime, and my posts start becoming too selfish and self centered, but the, after some thought, i realize that I am simply one more drop of water in the river of humanity.
I stand behind the rules of this forum, spoken or implied. It has not been difficult to discern the general tone of this forum as being techinical/scientific in it's approach to our everyday dilemmas or success with our respective units. I have also talked to NasaTom on the phone several times and repeated emailings asking for his help with a technical issue, and even when he's very very busy, he will pause and answer my question. When talking to Tom, I don't hear alot of "I, me, my" terms. Those are signpost of an ego-centric personality. And no, I'm not casting this out there as an implied accusation to others who might be troubled with the SELF-isms. I rarely comment on a post when there are alot of egos in conflict because I ALWAYS end up on the losing end. lol It will be two hours later when I will think: "Ah NUTS! I should have said This or That. And THEN i would have set them in their place." I'm just not quick witted enough to get in a "back and forth" kind of posting war.
But again, and in closing. I get it. Every since I have been a member here, I have felt that this was/is a metal detecting forum that is unlike any other due to it's technical/scientific air. It;s not about personal confict (which really should be carried to PM's so that it won't start a post-war.)
I am tickled to death that I have some HOT new property to hunt, I worked all afternoon yesterday doing yardwork for the owner (his health is very poor and he was VERY grateful. He told me that I could hunt the back AND the front yard. This yard is VERY close to where I dig my 1859 Gold Dollar. In fact, so close, that I could talk to a person on the gold dollar yard in low tones and he would hear me, with his headphones off. I am going to start gridding it this afternoon. Happy Searching to all members. Peace, good will to all!!!!!! I need to go check on momma.
By the way, THANKS!!!! NasaTom for this forum. And letting me be a member of it.! If my statement can be misconstrued as 'kissing behind" then so be it. I stand by those words.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2013 04:08PM by Kevin B.

Well said steveg
I know I don't post a lot, but this is the best forum for truth.

Carter exellent posts,but remember" don't throw pearls before swine"---they'll gobble them down. Keep up the professional work.

BaaaWaaaHaaa----tell'em Dan. I tink I "detected",as Arnold S. would say, a couple GirlyMen.

barryny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey Tri - It's quite simple - don't read the posts
> if you don't want to...
>
> PS - we all know who you voted for - even if you
> won't admit it...


tom gets my vote! guys got more sense than all the republicans,and democrats in congress.

"Thus, before people are banned for perceived infractions of unclear rules I would suggest a simple declaration be made, such as: "It is a violation of forum rules for any dealer or distributor to post comparison videos or discuss the merits of detectors they sell or distribute". If that is the standard, which apparently it is, then it is best to come out and say it is so.""

Yes , this is Tom's site ......YES , Tom has contributed more time, money, and knowledge to this hobby/sport than any 10 people I know , and YES , he can make the rules .......HOWEVER ....There is a fine line between giving real world examples and comparisons , and promoting a machine that you sell .....The above suggestion spells it out with nothing left to the imagination and clarifies the intent ...... Jim

*** The above suggestion spells it out with nothing left to the imagination and clarifies the intent ***

Exactly!

It seems transparently obvious that the true bottom issue has never been if the site owner can make rules, that is self-evident. The fuzzy area is if whether a dealer or distributor that posts comparison videos, even if fairly and honestly done, is actually marketing or attempting to influence opinions toward making a sale. Since it is easy for a clever salesperson to construct an objective test of several detectors so that under the testing specifications the winner is always the preferred detector, which we understand to be a foul and goes back to the honesty part of testing, we can understand the prohibition.

I have no idea where the forum rules are, haven't found them yet, but if a statement similar to the one below were included, the fuzzy area immediately goes away. Simply stating that dealers are not to promote or market is too nebulous, it would be like the state saying that while driving on the roadways you should not go "too fast". When you get your ticket for going "too fast" you just might complain that you thought you were obeying the rules. That's why rules must be clear -so they are enforceable.

"It is a violation of forum rules for any dealer or distributor to post comparison videos or discuss the merits of detectors they sell or distribute"