Rcpt Ack of F75 Ltd prototype

1. At this juncture, it's only available in Camo

2. Performance improvement is substantial. As I continue to hunt with the LTD, MOST of my recoveries I'm making with it simply wouldn't be made without boost. I'm still trying virtually every different setting setup on each target before I dig it and boost is the real deal. JE's forte is small low conductors and it does slightly narrow the usually rather wide gap between it and boost with stable settings but the difference is still big IMO.

3. From everything I've seen thus far, yes to a "T"

4. Limited means they're only making a certain number of these and then something will be different.....color, bundling packaging, I'm not sure. Knowing how this thing produces, I'd hate to go through this season without one no matter what.

for us neutral ground hunters!

Tom is there a pre-amp in the T2 and F75 coil?

Tom Z

BuckeyeBrad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I purchased my first 75 the first month they were
> available and although there was depth differences
> when in real low/no discrimination, the chart
> you're referring to showed a lot more difference
> than mine does. The 75 LTD proto shows almost no
> difference in depth (there is a little difference
> in target response duration) but still has
> considerable difference IN SOME ENVIRONMENTS in
> the sensitivity to noise at "0" vs "6".

That's good to know Brad. I suspect that they've fixed this issue by now, although it would be great if Dave J. or Mike S. could validate that with engineering for peace of mind.

nt

Well that did it for me right there. I called and have one on hold for me when they come in. I hope they get here before the DIV in early NOV or we'll be short on detectors for two people.

SHORT ON TIME. Here's a cut-n-paste:

F75 Ltd 2nd run

Dave & John,

Some valuable observations this morning:

The ‘je’ mode has been trumped by the ‘bp’ mode. In dry sand (at a local
beach), I’m finding virtually identical Sens/depth characteristics on small &
very small targets that range the spectrum of conductivity…..noting the edge on
lower conductive items. I’m not sure I see any need for the ‘je’ mode anymore.
The ‘bp’ mode presents a greater audible intelligibility factor that is more
‘human friendly’…..and also appears to have a slightly greater depth ad. Yes, a
slightly slower sweep speed necessitates; however, the intuitiveness is
autonomous. The ‘je’ mode clocks faster, requiring the operator to pay extra
attention. (((Will see if I can send you guys a photo or two))).

Another observation is an observed 1” nominal greater depth performance on
dime-sized targets that range the entire spectrum of conductivity…..in a dry
sand beach environment. Once again, lower conductive targets having a slight ad
by an additional two-tenths (0.2”) of an inch over their higher conductive
counterparts.

On the beach…..where minimal EMI exists, I’m air-testing a nickel @3” greater
range…. and a dime @ approx 2.2” greater range in ‘bp’ mode vs. the standard F75
modes. I believe these numbers would increase…. if yet another increment of EMI
reduction were encountered (dictated by surrounding environment). A
tempest-booth test is in order……access permitting.

I am still cumulatively encountering a measured greater overall ID accuracy……
even in mild masking scenarios. ………..Thus far, I have zero need for ‘je’
mode….and zero need for older Gen F75.

Can you increase (slightly) the overall diameter of the pistol-grip? And can you
increase the pistol-grip foam density by approx 20%? Batteries appear to be
captivated markedly better. Is the control head a bit more water-resistant vs.
1st Gen F75’s?

Add’l testing in-prog. Will advise.

Sincerely,

Tom

3rd Ltd run will be tomorrow...... with a good point that LCPM has brought up. I always do my best to max out the settings. Many folks simply don't want to be in 'overdrive' all of the time. Tomorrow, I'll test the proto with a more tame Sens setting...and a bit of Disc (most probably '6') utilized.

I have one on order, sounds like it is a winner!!

Thanks for all the great info and for all the work you and others put into this. We all benefit from it and we all appreciate it I am sure.

Julien

Hi Tom,

Do you have any old silver buried 'deep' in your test bed? I'm wondering how the 'bp' mode compares against the Explorer, the previous King of uncovering old silver.

My life-long philosophy has always been:

"I'd rather hurt you with honesty, than mislead you with a lie"

The Ltd (and F75 & T2) are MUCH more resonant (tuned) for lower conductors; hence, deeper on these lower conductors; HOWEVER, yes, I have tested the Ltd on a silver Half-Dime (exactly half the mass/silver of a silver dime).....and in my soil..... the Ltd is the trump card. This is to include ID accuracy......and ALSO to include...in a mildly 'masked' (with iron) situation.

There's a critical statement needing to be made:

The older the detecting site, the lesser amount on non-ferrous trash AND TARGETS. This is to say: The older the site... the "PROPORTIONATELY MORE" amount of iron (vs non-ferrous targets) will be prevalent. HENCE; the CRITICALITY of superior:

1. iron see-thru abilities
2. iron ID accuracy
3. iron 'falsing' minimization
4. overall iron handling & processing capabilities

at old sites.

Tom

It is a 'fringe depth' target. Invoking the 'bp' mode.... and the
Ltd will acquire the dime with a much longer duration audio response.... and up
to 3" additional air-gap above the ground. This leads one to believe that the
unit can detect the target to deeper depths. 12" + 3" = 15".

Nasa Tom

Two points Tom:

1st: The addition of the 3 inch air gap and still hitting targets will prove to be a huge advantage in the farm fields I hunt with corn and bean stubble! And also for hunters in the woods on leaves, and hunters in tall grass. I think that includes just about everyone.

2nd: The target signal's duration is of extreme importance, ask anyone who hunts in audio long on the Explorer line. When those "squeaks" and "pops" become elongated....we then call them.... signals. That is a huge point and by itself is reason enough to call the LTD a true upgrade worth attention.

Thanks Tom!

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

Tom, do you ever see any value in running in any of the old F75 modes, that is BC, PF, JE or DE? It seems that if you every wanted to use a LTD to find a recently lost earing, for example, you'd just use the BP mode with low sensitivity.

Outta time again.....so I will cut-n-paste:

Dave & John,

Spent 13 hours (on Sunday) with Ltd at 3 different/independent sites. Lessons
learned:

1st site = This is a antebellum home with slow sink-rate dirt that is moderately
nail infested. EMI was fairly high.....considering I could audibly hear the
transformer humming on the utility pole approx 45-feet away. The lesson learned
here is: If/when conditions warrant a reduction in Sens and a increase in Disc
to mitigate EMI.......the add'l advantages of the Ltd are then rendered useless.
This is also to say; If a older Gen F75 required a reduction in performance
settings due to local EMI conditions; subsequently, the new Ltd will require the
SAME performance reduction in order to ascertain the SAME stability. The
performance of the Ltd at this particular site would be/is the same exact
performance that would normally be achievable with the old Gen F75. Net gain =
Zero.
.....Where EMI is fairly minimal, the Ltd is unsurpassed.

2nd site = This is a dozed/turned railroad spur/station. A absolute nightmare
due to the volume of trash.....would be similar/aka to a car junk-yard. This is
where I decided to reduce Sens to '80' and increase Disc to '6' w/tone options.
All things considered, the Ltd was a stupendous performer in this type of
environ. Other detectorists (of whom accompanied) were using other types of
detectors so as to reduce detector-to-detector interference. In short order,
they borrowed/acquired my back-up F75's.....switched to different Freq's and
also achieved very good success. The Ltd was exceptionally stable......and found
many items of significance......in what would....otherwise.....be a detector
shutdown/'off-limits' area.

3rd site = Second Seminole Indian War (1834 - 1836) site. Many (learning curve)
valuable lessons acquired here. This area is high in iron trash. The last 4
times that I hunted here with the original F75........yielded no more (zero)
non-ferrous items. On the orig F75.... Disc '1', Sens '99', PF, GB '90' & 4-tone
were my settings. This became important.....as with the Ltd, I placed all
settings to exactly the same.....with one exception; Disc on the Ltd would be at
'6' (and of course 'bp' mode). NO JOY. No non-ferrous targets located.
Eventually I would (incrementally) start lowering Disc......detecting for approx
10 minutes in each lower increment. No non-ferrous targets surfaced (yet).
NOTHING happened....UNTIL I finally hit a Disc setting of '1'. NOW my Ltd
settings finally matched the settings that I previously hunted with old Gen
F75....(except the Ltd has always been in 'bp' mode). Seven non-ferrous targets
surfaced in a 30' x 30' area.
Now..... hunting this exact same 30' x 30' area again..... but with Disc on
'0'..... the ground lit up with 91 more non-ferrous targets.
Lesson learned here: If an area has already been hunted/sanitized with older Gen
F75..... new targets can be located with new unit... AS LONG AS settings match
OR EXCEED the old F75 hunted settings (with the Ltd in new 'bp' mode)....with
one major difference (attribute); -- Of all 91 non-Fe targets recovered....I
lowered Sens to differing levels.....and nearly never lost a target at a
'reasonably' lower Sens setting; suffice to say; Disc MUST remain on '0' (in my
case...due to prev F75 hunted-out scenario). This is to say; there is Disc
dependency.....but certainly not much Sens requirement.

I am continuing to find higher ID resolution at depth. I have noticed zero
difference in battery consumption......and am continuing to notice the 'bp' mode
trumping the 'je' mode....especially in relic hunting applications.
I need to revise a previous statement; depth gain of this new 'bp' unit is
approx 0.2" on a dime in my dirt.....but in the real world, there is a marked
depth gain on very small targets; tiny buttons...air-rifle BB's etc........

In only 3 lengthy hunts; It is easy for me to conclude the new software tools
are a major attribute. Reverse the depth gauge...and this one is a substantial
keeper.

CONGRATULATIONS!

Sincerely,

Tom

very interesing! I can't wait to hit my hunted out spots

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

So Tom are you saying that if I hunted with my old F75 in Calif soil at a disc of 6 and say a sens at 72-80 in DE mode...that for the new F75 to work in boost mode I would have to hunt at a disc of 5 and I may find a few targets and then 4 and so on? That is very interesting and it makes sence but = settings would not offer me a big advantage? And you also say if you are going to hunt in 4 tone you have to have a disc of 0 to match the CZ3?

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If/when conditions warrant a reduction in
> Sens and a increase in Disc
> to mitigate EMI.......the add'l advantages of the
> Ltd are then rendered useless.
> This is also to say; If a older Gen F75 required a
> reduction in performance
> settings due to local EMI conditions;
> subsequently, the new Ltd will require the
> SAME performance reduction in order to ascertain
> the SAME stability. The
> performance of the Ltd at this particular site
> would be/is the same exact
> performance that would normally be achievable with
> the old Gen F75. Net gain =
> Zero.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Tom

Now I wonder if there is any measurable advantage of the LTD over the 1st gen. F75 when in 'hot' Virginia dirt???

Do I need to keep my Explorer?

I would still keep the Explorer... as the circuitry is a different architect.....designed by Bruce Candy for SEVERE mineral Australia. Severe minerals = Explorer.

There are many sites (in my area) that allows the opportunity to run higher Sens and lower Disc.....which.....even the slightest change (especially w/Disc) is making a tremendous difference in performance resultant.

I am (now) finding no need for any other 'Process' or 'Mode' as many would refer. I no longer have a 'need' for pf, de, bc, je. Only 'bp'. Raising Disc and/or lowering Sens should serve the need (in the new bp mode)......if a reduced performance level is req'd for some reason. In furtherance, I have yet to 'fully' test the 'CL' mode.....which is a slower/deeper mode.... for cache hunting.

You must select '4-tone' to have the CZ-3D "old-coins" program in the Ltd/T2/F75.

A short coin (only) hunt this afternoon.

Disc '6', Sens '70', bp, 4-tones......GB not req'd. VERY nice, stable unit. Enjoyable hunt. I have hit this site in the past.....but with concentric coil units only. Fairly 'trashy' with modern trash. I found 4 wheats in 40 minutes. Very clean/easy solid sounding targets. No questions what they were. All were approx 8" to 9" deep. Hard hitting. With the detectors modest settings.....stability was maximum.....no EMI....only audio reports from targets. Ltd can be set up for easy-on-the-brain hunting.

Tom, is the relative improvement from 'JE' (or 'DE') to 'BP' the same regardless of DISC setting? Given identical background chatter, will the performance improvement be the same comparing both modes when running Mono/DISC=6 vs 4H/DISC=0?

Tom, if you please, could you help me to set up my F75 for this specific site...another words, which settings would you use?

Pretty neutral soil, kind of trashy, coins and relics from 1860 to present, lots of iron cut nails.
Specifically looking for Indians, Silver coins, 3 cent and 2 cent pieces, many mid-tones are really interesting finds, such as buttons and such (nickels V and shield).
Medium EMI, not too bad.
I am having a great deal of trouble in setting my machine to be:
A. less chatty
B. eliminating some of the short blips and clicks that are just falsing, even when using my smaller and smallest coils (ie 4x6).
C. most of the older coins and relics are between 7 and 9 inches deep.
D. There is one acre of grass...Real trashy (modern and old trash)
E. and 12 acres of corn fields...from real trashy (old iron nails) to no signal for 100 feet at a time.
F. I have beaten this site over and over with an SE, and Etrac, 12 different coils, fast on, long audio, during flood, wet, damp and drought.
G. I know there is much left, hoping a faster recovery can pull a few keepers with the (f75)
H. In a nut shell, looking to make the f75 more stable, less falsing and lengthen if possible, the tones it is giving as much as possible.

PS: Love your video...Please make more........quickly...and the only suggestion I would have is if you could produce a Machine Specific video...Example...a video on 1 single unit...such as Minelab Explorers, Etrac, F75 or Whites V3. Even if it is a different person (expert) actually explaining the machines quirks and perks, it could still be produced and directed by analytical and exacting you. It would be a real pleasure and an absolute great value to have videos made by several experts on one specific machine. Start with the machine with the largest mass of owners, that are seriously questing more detailed knowledge.

There is a substantial differential between je vs bp. The clock-speed/timing of bp is dramatically different from je. It's actually comparing apples to oranges. Soooo......this is to say; je is more EMI susceptible vs the bp mode. Disc for either mode is quite important for depth/Sens/performance. So far......BOTH mono & Disc '6' and 4-tone w/Disc '0' in the bp mode is quite a jump in performance vs the older modes. I am finding myself running Disc '0' & 4-tone much more often.......vs....Disc '6' & monotone. I think my 'fatigue' factor is becoming more tolerant.

Glad you loved the video. Another one is 'in the making'. As far as maximizing your F75 at a site that has been hit hard...... the principle is still the same. IF IF you can set Disc at '0', 4-tone, Sens '99' and hit it hard.....this is your best bet. If EMI is an issue....start by doing a Freq change with F1 thru F7. Find the freq that provides the least EMI. THEN.....if EMI is still a problem..... try raising Disc up to '4'. If EMI is still an issue....raise Disc to '5'. Then to Disc '6' if required. And with Disc '6'.....if EMI is still an issue...start lowering Sens. Try NOT to do any of these things.....if possible. It is good to have 'some' EMI. Then place coil on the ground and start sweeping. Quite a bit of EMI will 'go away'. PUSH YOUR LIMITS!!!

ON A DIFFERENT NOTE; This 'interactive' approach of the new Ltd prototype and the public.....appears to be a very good thing. Plus........you guys will know how to set up the new Ltd.....by the time it hits the streets.

Tom

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is a substantial differential between je vs
> bp. The clock-speed/timing of bp is dramatically
> different from je. It's actually comparing apples
> to oranges. Soooo......this is to say; je is more
> EMI susceptible vs the bp mode. Disc for either
> mode is quite important for
> depth/Sens/performance. So far......BOTH mono &
> Disc '6' and 4-tone w/Disc '0' in the bp mode is
> quite a jump in performance vs the older modes. I
> am finding myself running Disc '0' & 4-tone much
> more often.......vs....Disc '6' & monotone. I
> think my 'fatigue' factor is becoming more
> tolerant.
>
> Tom

Sorry Tom, I did not explain my question well...

Assume that testing showed that you got 1/2" more depth using 'bp' at 4H/DISC=0 compared to the 'je' mode at 4H/DISC=0 given a constant background chatter. Would you expect to get 1/2" more depth using 'bp' at MONO/DISC=6 compared to the 'je' mode at MONO/DISC=6 given the same constant background chatter? And maybe at higher DISC settings too?

Yes to the 1st question.....yet.......however; the higher the Disc setting......to a certain point...... the lower the performance. Comparing 'je' mode w/Mono & Disc '6' to/vs 'bp' Mono....and higher than Disc '6' settings will forfeit some performance. NOW......if both je & bp modes are compared EQUALLY at higher Disc settings.....the bp mode takes a certain lead. This portion is (somewhat) linear.

I am trying to find a lower performance (Disc/Sens) set-up with the Ltd in the 'bp' mode...that is equal to the maxed-out 'pf' and/or 'je' mode of the old Gen F75. It would be great to say: "Hey guys...... With the Ltd at Disc '4', 4-tone & Sens '56'......equals a absolutely maxed-out old Gen F75". No-can-do. I don't think this is achievable due to different (non-linear) performance levels to low conductors vs high conductors AND.... AND/OR ...... very small targets vs. dime-sized targets. I think: TOO many variables ensue; subsequently invalidating the test. I suppose I am ALWAYS looking for concrete/definitive/exacting answers.

Tom

Thank you Tom,

Maybe First Texas should consider paying you to do a video for their new F75 LTD, hold out for a percentage TOM, LOL.

It's possible.

Okay.......let's try this link. The biggest thing I want you guys to focus on....is the very tiny 'blue dot' that is next to the date. It's made out of aluminum.....is stunningly tiny......and was difficult to find......as it's slightly larger than the size of a grain of sand. ALL items (including the dime) were found at the beach in the dry sand. Sens '99', Disc '0', 4-tone, bp, GB '90'.
Here's the kicker:
This aluminum blue dot is detectable to 0.5" (half-inch) in the 'je' mode. Performance is approx 100% greater in the 'bp' mode.....as the Ltd could detect the blue dot to nearly double = 1". This may sound insignificant...........and....who cares about digging very tiny targets that you nearly cannot see; BUT, this IS the capability of this new process/mode by which "lights-up" MANY more targets that a standard F75 cannot (or nearly not) see. This is to include tiny, small, medium & large targets. Soooooooo.......DON'T take this for granted!
Notice the blue dot is much smaller than the back of an earring 'clasp' of which is marked 925 (the designation of sterling silver.... 92.5% silver & 7.5% copper).
Small relic 'cuff' buttons.....and U.S. $1 gold coins are to be considered 'large targets' to the F75 Ltd whilst in 'bp' process. ---CHECK THIS LINK OUT:

[www.dankowskidetectors.com]

Tom

I'm speechless

Can't wait to give one a try.