sierra super trac

Thanks everyone for the enlightenment on the differences between Motion and Non-Motion All-Metal modes.

I have a White's Classic IDX that when operated with the trigger in the forward postion it is in non-motion all metal mode. The detector will sound off continually without motion on a target. However with movement in the non-motion all metal mode the VDI information is still displaying on the screen for the target. However, this isn't how the SST works. It has to have motion to display the VDI and Tones.

Alan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2013 10:48PM by Alan in East Bay.

The battle continues. Motion and non-motion all metal are a function of a threshold auto tune circuit. True all metal is the unfiltered response of the detector and can be non-motion or motion if auto tuning is applied. Non-motion usually drifts and has minimal application outside pinpointing. The all metal non-motion mode on the F75 will knock your socks off if you can figure out how to apply it in real life. Not easy.

Anything delivering a VDI or tone response must engage VLF discrimination circuitry which does indeed rely on motion to get results.

True all metal sees target, reports target. Plain and simple. No discrimination.

Discrimination sees target, filters or analyzes target, reports target based on discrimination setting. If discrimination is set to "zero" all targets are reported. The key is the discrimination circuit is still engaged.

Now to mess with people there are different ground filters!

Steve Herschbach



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2013 04:41PM by Steve Herschbach.

Alan, I have to disagree with you. I have a White's IDX Pro, which, as I recall, is basically the same machine as the Classic IDX, but my IDX is with Mr. Bill mods (Ground Balance control and Threshold control pots added for external adjustment), but when the toggle trigger is in the forward position, AM Mode, it is a Threshold based, Motion AM mode. The audio of the Threshold will increase when swinging over a non ferrous target (coin) but if the coil is held stationary over the target (coin) the Threshold returns back to when it was initially adjusted. The manual even states it is a motion AM mode.

ron_c, I think that is a true all-metal with a threshold circuit that resets in a given time. ( IDX, foward trigger)

I have to agree with the sentiments that the manufacturers have used the terminology "all-metal" to mean almost anything.

But this new detector more than likely is a disc mode set to zero with tones.

We used to call true all-metal "static mode" since that mode is non-filtered...and as Steve H. pointed out, will have circuit drift
and static mode doesn't care what metal it detects or if there is motion on the coil or not.

Threshold reset was added to deal with drift for "static mode" on many model detectors with "static mode"....but that is different from a disc. mode that requires ever so slight motion.

So the big questions for this new detector is did they tweak the disc mode to make it faster than the usual MXT/M6 response/recovery time
or is this a scaled down M6?
...And does it get better depth than the MXT/M6?

Looks like one (or some) of us will have to try one out to see for sure...perhaps someone already with a MXT/M6 would make for better testing.

Ron:

You're correct. I was mistaken on the IDX. It does take movement.

Alan

Steve:

I'm going to try and find out how the F75 SE does in AM mode when I get back. FedEx should have my new one waiting for me.

Alan

I dont think so Albert..

If they had technology like that they would not put it on a Sierra only model...

The Omega Visual I.D.'s in all metal auto tune mode but the audio is not affiliated with the disc mode...Just the screen readout...
The audio is a threshold based auto tune mode...

Keith

Alan Your f75 does indeed have a Static Non Motion all metal mode and a motion all metal mode....

What does the static do well static meaning non moving is just that you can hold it over a target and it will keep on sounding off with no motion....

The motion all metal mode will go silent over a target if you hold it there in non motion...

Pinpoint modes are usually non motion yet not neccesary either they can just be slow retune...

what does all that mean?

Well first you have to understand what a true all metal threshhold based mode is comaprd to a Discriminate all metal mode is ...

A all metal disc mode is a DISCRIMINATE mode that accepts all metal's through target analyzation...that mean when it detects a simple staple or small nail it still has to go through the process of comparing through 2 channels' for I.D. purposes to get the final outcome just the same as if it was going to I.D. a silver dollar...same exact process takes place...even if the tone is 1 or 99 its still a analyzed signal for i.d. ....Disc Analyzation robs SOME depth..

A true all metal mode is usually threshold based and the signal is not analyzed for I.D...it's a raw single channel non processed signal...theres no way of knowing what the target is other than it's metallic...It's never been analyzed/compared phase shifted....

The threshold on the all metal mode 'AUTO TUNE' is there for operator tuning assistance...It gives the operator a base to monitor...
Set threshold to a barely audible hum not too faint and not too loud...but just audible ...bob coil up and down notice if it goes silent or get's loud...use your ground bal to set the ground bal so that the thresh stays the same in the air as it does when approching the ground...i.e. it just stays the same slight hum...Now as you scan the ground the threshold will alert you to a metallic target and also mineral...You will recieve a rise of the threshold a peak of the threshold and a drop of the threshold as you pass over a target...but thats all you get...you get no sort of I.D. system to tell you what it is other than it is a target....The 'AUTO TUNE' is there to maintain a proper threshold that is set to barely audible hum...that why when you stop over a target it simply retunes the treshold and the target disappear's..

The static all metal mode is a non motion all metal mode in other word's....It does not require motion to signal....So the threshold will not retune itself..it will drift off high or low after passing a target...you have to retune through a switch...on your f75 thats pulling the trigger back to return threshold...it is also more complex to ground bal in static...you have to retune with trigger while balincing instead of just turning the ground knob you also have to get your target thresh back too in the process..since it's not 'AUTO TUNE'..but this mode is also a non processed raw signal ..no I.D. ability..

theres also some auto retunes that are slower to retune yet still retune in all metal mode...they take longer to return thresh after passing a target than some like and a switch is there to return faster...tesoro does this on some design's...Like the first bandido umax,,,it would retune but it took a few seconds..but a switch was available to get it back quicker...

Why have a motion and a non motion all metal?

a true prospector or a true cache hunter or true relic hunter at times requires the extra performance gain a true all metal mode offer's over a disc circuit and at time's the non motion mode can and will add a advantage when understood and used when needed...the non motion will add more sens and more depth to an EXPERINCED user at time's.....Non motion is also great for 'TRACING'


Keith

So tempting I would pull the trigger on one if I wasn't so busy, good price too.

Reminds me of using relic mode with the MTX, set my disc at 2 Iron giving a low grunt anything above iron a solid signal. So its similar to MXT relic mode only has tones.

I don't understand why some feel the SST will drive one crazy in trashy areas, the tones alone will simplify hunting making it much easier than the MXT in relic mode in trashy areas.

Just sold my MXT, here I'm trying to leave the hobby selling off my top end detectors then the SST surfaces, very tempting hope I have the willpower to fight temptation.

Paul (Ca)

Hi Paul,

I think the SST sounds like a great little unit. I like hunting with tones. The difference in the MXT Relic Mode is it is a mixed mode - disc layered on top of all metal, so three tones. Hi beep above disc setting, goose honk below disc setting, and monotone for all metal response deeper than disc will hit. I am not swearing to it but I doubt SST is running mixed mode. Still sounds like a zero disc M6 with ground tracking and elliptical coil.

Steve Herschbach

I wonder if the audio is more modulated than the M6,like they say in the ad? Or does the M6 have good modulated audio? I hear some say it does and some say it doesn't that all targets sound the same no matter of depth? Any M6 owners out there who can clear this up for me as I always wanted to try a M6,But only if it has good modulated audio.

I asked a question about motion and non-motion AM modes and circuits on the Whites forum and received a reply from Carl Moreland as follows:

" Quote Originally Posted by Carl@Whites View Post
There are several varieties of AM circuit designs. A non-motion AM circuit is DC-coupled and typically is subject to long-term drift. Most pinpoint modes are non-motion AM as they are normally used for short duration.

Motion AM is either AC-coupled or has an SAT feedback circuit, both of which remove long-term drift but also require motion to maintain a signal response. It does not necessarily have any disc circuitry or additional filters, but could have. Most "all-metal" modes (non-pinpoint) are motion AM.

It's entirely possible to design a phase-based AM circuit which reports VDIs or generates tones; it's even possible to do this in a non-motion mode. I think in the case of the IDX there is an AM channel creating the AM audio and a separate disc channel creating the VDIs."

The link is here: [forums.whiteselectronics.com]

Alan - Retired in Omak, WA

Interesting and informative read on that link. Thanks Alan for posting.

Hey Alan ..Glad Carl answered you...

See where He said it is Possible to design an 'Phase-Based' all metal circuit...you have to have phase to I.D. and although its accepting all metal it is still a phase shifted all metal,,,,i.e. it say's its a target but it decides its a target through phase shifting...a true all metal tells you it's a target but does not know what the target is...it does not have a comparator.

thats what I was talking about earlier in a post...

Phase shift is used since most metal's vary in both inductance and resistance, a metal detector examines the amount of phase shift using a pair of electronic circuits called phase demodulators, and compares it with the average for a particular type of metal. The detector alerts you to what the signal might be .


it gets confusing especially now day's...

Keith

TheOtherLeggoHead Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This machine seems to have potential. I really
> liked my M6.


apparently that's what ya got in the (s.s.t.)
an m6 with NO discrimination control. believe you will effectively
run it the same as a m6. in trash laden areas especially,however it's possible
it MAY have increased gain,and better clarity of coins at depth?..no body knows
right now..being patient,and listening to a 'ton" of iron,and other crap will be a given.

(h.h.!)
j.t.

Guess I'm the only one not the least bit impressed...and I don't mean that in a disrespectful way...just don't see anything new and improved or exciting here.

deathray Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Guess I'm the only one not the least bit
> impressed...and I don't mean that in a
> disrespectful way...just don't see anything new
> and improved or exciting here.

Strangely, I have seen a lot of new machines come into being over the past 10 years...not saying they don't have merit and have seen
others buy them...then many times some of those go back to older models...for instance like the CZs.

That being said, I am approaching the twilight of my detecting career as my health isn't near as good as it used to be.
So likely I will possibly pass all the new ones by or ...if one really does suit my fancy and really does something the
older models can't do, I might jump for it.

So if it is more of variations on a theme....likely won't get me excited.

Really the only one I would consider at this point in time of the new batches is the Deus..yet I seem uninterested in paying the
high price those command.

In the link I posted above Carl Moreland shared a little more detail on the AM modes. It's an interesting response on how the newer detection circuits use the same information but VDI and Tones require a stronger signal than a typical AM response. It's way over my head technically but it is fun to learn.

Alan

deathray Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Guess I'm the only one not the least bit
> impressed...and I don't mean that in a
> disrespectful way...just don't see anything new
> and improved or exciting here.


+1 unless as mentioned ,it "trumps" the mxt/m6 in depth,and "'clarity"
of signals at depth.don't really believe it was designed as a coin hunter,primarily
because it has no discrimination control,and listening to "iron" in "junked" parks will get old
real quick!..just sayin'

I am hoping it has a faster recovery speed since it is not using a conventional desc circuit. It might have a separation advantage over the Mxt. I hunt jewelry primarially with the G2 and listen to all the iron anyway and try to work between it. If its anywhere as fast as the G2 with the addition of the 7 tones it just might be a killer jewelry hunter for the park and beaches. Im going to look at one this week and test it with Sweet Caroline a very nice whites dealer who is also very apt with a MXT. I'm hoping she will have the time to do some testing. I want to hear the tonal quality of the all metal Id between the MXT and SST.

All though I think I all ready talked my self into it as I sit here shaking my head. LOL

HH

godigit1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am hoping it has a faster recovery speed since
> it is not using a conventional desc circuit. It
> might have a separation advantage over the Mxt. I
> hunt jewelry primarially with the G2 and listen to
> all the iron anyway and try to work between it. If
> its anywhere as fast as the G2 with the addition
> of the 7 tones it just might be a killer jewelry
> hunter for the park and beaches. Im going to look
> at one this week and test it with Sweet Caroline a
> very nice whites dealer who is also very apt with
> a MXT. I'm hoping she will have the time to do
> some testing. I want to hear the tonal quality of
> the all metal Id between the MXT and SST.
>
> All though I think I all ready talked my self into
> it as I sit here shaking my head. LOL
>
> HH

Let us know your thoughts after you try it out.
thanks

Picked up the SST today. Its lighter than I expected. When you turn it on it comes up with M6 1.00 software. We did a couple little tests next to a Mxt and performance was pretty much on par with a slight edge going to the Mxt On my small 1.2 gram test nugget. The Mxt had the 9.5 coil and the SST was performing as well in air tests with the Eclipse. The SST does seem to have a crisper audio response and first impressions are its pretty fast. Almost as fast as the G2 but the signal is not as sharp as the G2 on a multiple target fast sweep.

One interesting thing I have found so far is, sweeping my hard wood floor in track it does not track out the nails thus keeping it in a all metal response. When switched to salt it tracks out the nails. After the nails are tracked out switch it back to track they stay tracked out and very well I MIGHT ADD. Is this a disc circuit or a product of tracking and ground balance?
I've yet to waive the coil over any real ground, hopefully Ill get home before dark tomorrow!!

Thanks Steve,

Appreciate the information, sold the MXT recently that was a good detector
Its a long drive to test the SST up close just may do that on a day off in the future, if anything would be an excuse to get out enjoy the trip and who knows may like that I see on the SST.

Thanks again for the info,
Paul (Ca)

Wait until I get back and I'll go with you.

Sounds great El, we can meet at in-out-burger then car pool there. With all the confusion with all metal would be to our advantage to see one up close before opening the wallet

I really like the MXT relic mode, but if the SST is similar yet better may spring for one.

See you soon, enjoy your trip which is the state I was born.
Paul (Ca)

Sounds like a tweaked M6.. no disc control...

migth up sped it up a bit to MXT standard's...

MXT is not quite as fast as the G2 ...but its fast...

one thing on the MXT if you lock the tracking and are in hot rocks that are loud it will casue the machine to null after crossing the hot rock for a second and nothing is heard..turn the tracking on and it will tke care of it....

the hot rock acts as a target and big ones close to the surface will overload the circuit and cause momentary nulling...

Hopefully it has the superior tracking of the mxt for certian situtations..

Keith

Well! Gave in to temptation caved big time, throught I have the willpower to resist.

Rats! Got one ordered from a dealer friend.

Paul (Ca)

I'd be worried if ya didn't Paul, lol.

godigit1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am hoping it has a faster recovery speed since
> it is not using a conventional desc circuit. It
> might have a separation advantage over the Mxt. I
> hunt jewelry primarially with the G2 and listen to
> all the iron anyway and try to work between it. If
> its anywhere as fast as the G2 with the addition
> of the 7 tones it just might be a killer jewelry
> hunter for the park and beaches. Im going to look
> at one this week and test it with Sweet Caroline a
> very nice whites dealer who is also very apt with
> a MXT. I'm hoping she will have the time to do
> some testing. I want to hear the tonal quality of
> the all metal Id between the MXT and SST.
>
> All though I think I all ready talked my self into
> it as I sit here shaking my head. LOL
>
> HH


this is an interesting point.i didn't specifically mention 'separation"
because i am ASSUMING it has the 'same" circuitry as a mxt/m6
just WITHOUT the discrimination control,so there fore it WON'T have better separation.
than those two detectors.upon reflection,the (s.s.t.) MAY have a "tweaked" circuit,and if this is so,
it COULD have better separation,along with more ''defined" audio at "better" depth as well.perhaps a call to whitey
in sweet home is in order.

(h.h.!)
j.t.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2013 09:23AM by jmaryt.

Steve Herschbach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Alan in East Bay Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Keith:
> >
> > The SST is Motion-All Metal with tones. No
> > discrimination at all unless you ground balance
> to
> > iron. If that is done it sacrifices depth.
> >
> > Alan
>
> Appears to be confusion on this. From what I am
> seeing the SST is running in discrimination mode
> with all items set to accept. In other words, same
> as M6 with disc knob set to zero. This IS NOT the
> same as running in a true all metal mode. A mixed
> mode with true all metal running with disc tones
> layered on top, a "Mixed Mode", would be my
> preference.
>
> Basically sounds like an M6 with ground tracking,
> disc knob locked preset at zero and an elliptical
> coil. But I have not had one in my hands so I am
> not swearing 100% to this.
>
> I wish manufacturers would quit referring to zero
> discrimination as being all metal. Two completely
> different things and I think it is misleading. Not
> purposefully, but I am learning to be very careful
> as this is a perfect example of a machine being
> said to have an all metal mode that does not. Do
> we need new terms? Filtered all metal versus
> un-filtered all metal? The AT Pro and AT Gold had
> similar confusion going on.
>
> Steve Herschbach


apparently,one would be led to believe that 7 tone audio is NOT possible
to accomplish with the circuit design of the (s.s.t.?)..so therefore,it is really
set to" zero discrimination?"..perhaps a call to jimmy sierra will clear this up?


(h.h.!)
j.t.