$$$$Any Speculation Why Gold & Silver Is Dropping?$$$$

go-rebels Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Back to the original question...
>
> GOLD REBOUND
>
> Gold, which has posted its biggest falls in over
> 30 years since last Friday, was last trading at
> $1,372.85, up around 0.4 percent, having risen as
> much as 1.1 percent during the day.  "You'd
> expect to see a bounce after that kind of a move,"
> said Citigroup metals strategist David Wilson, who
> expects gold to stay under pressure.  "The reason
> investors have been walking away from gold is that
> the fear of inflation driven by the expansion in
> central bank balance sheets is simply not there."
>  Other industrial commodities such as copper and
> oil, while supported by the easy Fed and BOJ
> monetary policies, were weighed down by the
> worries about future demand levels, with global
> growth seen sluggish.
>
> [www.reuters.com]-
> global-idUSL5N0D40WW20130417

There are a few points that you are conveniently leaving out Go-Rebels. 1st, there is a HUGE historical connection between the price of gold and the USD - which is an inverse relationship for reasons I stated already. There are too many web links to list here. But, here is one of the first that came up: [www.moneyunder30.com] small quote "
Perhaps one of the most well-known relationships in currency markets is the inverse relationship between the U.S. dollar and the value of gold. This relation occurs because gold is typically used as a hedge against inflation through its intrinsic metal value. As the dollar’s exchange value decreases, it takes more dollars to buy gold, increasing the value of gold."

2nd - You failed to mention what precipitated the "sell off". There was a 400-500 TON selling of put options by what looks like Merrill Lynch. That triggered program selling and was probably connected to hedge fund selling but I'm not sure on the latter point. Again, 400 Tons is the amount the ECB allows European States in the EU to Cummulitively sell in ONE YEAR. And that happened in two days. Let that sink in. It is CLEAR manipulation and you didn't even mention that.

For you to leave out the obvious and talk about no relationship between the USD and gold, really makes me question your motives here.

Albert

Motive? Albert, I don't have a dog in the fight here; i'm only stating that the speculative gold bubble burst for a variety of simple reasons. The sell-off of "put options" is only the mechanism behind one reason, and certainly not the only one. A "put option" is only a legal bet, akin to the Credit Default Swaps I mentioned earlier.

For those who do no know what a "put option" is (from Wiki):

A put or put option is a contract between two parties to exchange an asset (the underlying), at a specified price (the strike), by a predetermined date (the expiry or maturity). One party, the buyer of the put, has the right, but not an obligation, to re-sell the asset at the strike price by the future date, while the other party, the seller of the put, has the obligation to repurchase the asset at the strike price if the buyer exercises the option. If the strike is K, and at time t the value of the underlying is S(t), then in an American option the buyer can exercise the put for a payout of K-S(t) up until the option's maturity time T. The put yields a positive return only if the spot price falls below the strike when the option is exercised. A European option can only be exercised at time T rather than any time up until T, and a Bermudan option can be exercised only on specific dates listed in the terms of the contract. If the option is not exercised by maturity, it expires worthless. (Note that the buyer will not exercise the option at an allowable date if the price of the underlying is greater than K.) The most obvious use of a put is as a type of insurance. In the protective put strategy, the investor buys enough puts to cover his holdings of the underlying so that if a drastic downward movement of the underlying's price occurs, he has the option to sell the holdings at the strike price. Another use is for speculation: an investor can take a short position in the underlying stock without trading in it directly. Puts may also be combined with other derivatives as part of more complex investment strategies, and in particular, may be useful for hedging. Note that by put-call parity, a European put can be replaced by buying the appropriate call option and selling an appropriate forward contract.

So if this makes it clearer to anyone who is interested, great. Like I said: think Credit Default Swaps.

The $/gold inverse relationship is valid only through selected periods of time. Your link dated 2010 used data ending through 2008. Much has happened in the last five years. The relationship is only viewed in the context of a third currency. Let's use the Euro as you're familiar with that. On 08April gold was $1600/oz and the $1.303=1 Euro; on 22April gold was $1400/oz and $1.307=1 Euro. The buying power of the US dollar remained constant. The value of gold dropped. Hardly an inverse relationship during the time we are discussing and the time frame relevant in Jimmy's original question.

reb--the fact you have no dog in the fight may explain your doggedness in denying history--as this man points out , gold is not pork bellies:

Who Said the Hydra Would Take It Lying Down
By Antal Fekete21


Dr. Antal Fekete... while its several heads were being chopped off one-by-one?

I have never appealed to the so-called conspiracy theories in trying to explain the strange world of fluctuations in the price of monetary metals. But neither have I ever said that the fiat-money Hydra will take it lying down when it comes to chopping off its several heads one-by-one.

Markets for the monetary metals under fiat money

Here are the relevant facts:

(1) The U.S. government defaulted on its obligation to pay its short-term dollar debt to foreign governments and central banks in gold at a fixed rate, as confirmed by several international treaties and by the solemn pledges of several sitting presidents, on August 15, 1971. Subsequently it has been bankrolling a chorus of servile academic cheerleaders and other sycophants to shout from the rooftop that the gold standard was a 'barbarous relic' anyway, quite ripe to be gotten rid of – in an effort to cover up the shame of fraudulent default (fraudulent because the U.S. did have the gold and could have lived up to its international obligations).

(2) Thus the U.S. confiscated some of the gold belonging to institutions outside its own jurisdiction, but could not confiscate all of it. University economics departments and research institutions have failed to investigate what gold at large will do in the long run. They just assumed that it will be business as usual without gold in eternity. Well, it didn't quite turn out that way. Speculators soon started trading gold futures, first in Canada, then in 1975 in the U.S. as well. No universities and think-tanks showed an interest in studying gold futures trading and its long-run consequences. Why, gold has been reduced to the status of frozen pork bellies. We know all that is to be known about trading frozen pork bellies, don't we? Supply and demand, right? And when push comes to shove, it is easier to increase the supply of paper gold than that of frozen pork bellies, isn't it? (With due apologies to the late Fritz Machlup of Princeton University for this interpretation of his theory of gold futures trading.) We may bypass the question whether our institutions ignored problems connected with futures trading of monetary metals on their own volition, or whether they did so under duress. As it turned out two scores of years later, the failure to study the consequences of the so-called demonetization of gold (euphemism for highway robbery) has caused an unprecedented world disaster: the disintegration of the world's payments system that is now unfolding before our very eyes.

(3) A scientific inquiry would have shown back in the 1970s that the gold basis (defined as the difference between the nearby futures price and the price for immediate delivery of gold) would be robust; in fact, it would be at its maximum (equal to the carrying charge, or opportunity cost of holding gold). But soon it would start its relentless decline all the way to zero and beyond. A negative gold basis, a condition known as backwardation of gold, would create an extremely unstable situation in international finance because it meant risk free profits for holders of gold. Knowledgeable market participants realize that persistently falling basis means increasing scarcity which, in the case of gold, is not and cannot be alleviated by current output from the mines. Output ultimately proves no match for the mass movement of gold going into hiding, first gradually, eventually reaching crescendo when the threat of permanent gold backwardation starts looming large. At that point all deliverable supplies of physical gold would be gobbled up by gold hoarding. In case of monetary metals, in contrast with all other commodities, high and increasing prices may not bring out new supply. Rather, they might make supply shrink. Monetary metals are exempt from the law of supply and demand.

Under permanent backwardation, as no gold were offered for sale at any price, the 'price of gold' would become a vacuous concept. Gold, silver and, soon enough, all other highly marketable goods would only be available through barter. In other words, paper money as we know it would simply cease to function. We cannot fathom how our complex world economy could operate under such circumstances. One thing was certain, though: the world economy would contract in a way that would make the contraction in the 1930s appear as a blip on the screen.

(4) All bubbles, all currency and financial crises of the past forty years are direct or indirect consequences of the vanishing gold basis – whether we admit it or not. A few years ago Professor Robert Mundell of Columbia University invited me to attend his annual seminar at Santa Colomba, with most of the leading monetary scientists in attendance. I circulated a statement warning of the danger of permanent gold backwardation and how it would adversely affect the world economy.

I argued that permanent backwardation of gold would be a watershed-event. As long as the gold futures markets are open, U.S. Treasury debt is still gold-convertible (albeit at a fluctuating rate, never mind that the rate is minuscule). But no sooner had gold futures trading stopped after the advent of permanent backwardation than gold was no longer to be had in exchange for U.S. Treasury debt. The entire outstanding debt of the U.S. was worth not one ounce of gold. Not one gram of it. It is insane to pretend that this would make no difference in world trade, as pretended by official doctrine. This event would mark the transition from monetary economy to barter economy.

My missive did not provoke a single rejoinder. It was simply ignored. All the same, I have reasons to believe that people in the U.S. Treasury and the Federal Reserve started to listen and they took a crash course on the problem of vanishing gold basis and the threat of permanent gold backwardation.

(5) To summarize, in forcing the world off the gold standard in 1971 the U.S. government created a many-headed Hydra. The problem was compounded by the apparent gag order, muzzling research on the gold basis – as a face-saving exercise to cover up the fact of default.

Gold is not the same as frozen pork bellies after all

In waking up too late that there was a problem after gold futures markets have been flirting with backwardation for a year or so, officialdom was forced to act. Act it did in a typically haphazard fashion. A few days ago, on April 12 and 15 the paper gold market was demoralized by a ferocious attack on the lofty gold price. This in and of itself is proof that Bernanke is fully aware that permanent gold backwardation is imminent, and that it will create an unmanageable situation. It's got to be stopped in its track at all hazards.

Well, well, well. Gold is not the same as frozen pork bellies after all. The Hydra is not taking it lying down. The kid gloves have finally come off.

Bernanke is trying to stop gold backwardation by selling an unlimited amount of gold futures contracts through his stooges, the bullion banks. He is underwriting losses they are certain to suffer in due course. We can take it for granted that they haven't got the gold to make delivery on their contracts. In fact, delivery of gold will be suspended under the force majeure clause. Short positions will have to be settled in cash, to be made available by the Fed's printing presses. Gold futures trading will be a thing of the past.

Bernanke and columnist Paul Krugman, formerly his subaltern colleague at Princeton don't understand that the issue is not the price of gold. The issue is backwardation or contango. In trying to wrestle the gold price to the ground the Fed makes "the last contango in Washington"* an accomplished fact.

From the frying pan into the fire

Ostensibly a lower gold price would solve the problem Bernanke has. Demoralized gold bugs would be forced out of their holdings through margin calls. Disillusioned investors would shun gold. This would make physical gold available to rescue the strapped gold futures market.

In fact, however, a lower gold price is making the problem more intractable, not less. The Fed is diving from the frying pan into the fire. This is the point missed by almost all observers and market analysts. They ignore the underlying flight into physical gold that continues unabated, in spite of (or, better still, because of) the panic in the paper gold market. The Fed's intervention in bankrolling short interest is going to back-fire, for the following simple reason. The Fed's strategy is inherently contradictory. A lower price for paper gold makes it easier, not harder, to demand delivery on maturing futures contracts.

The more paper gold Bernanke sells, the lower the cost of acquiring physical gold in exchange for paper gold becomes. The price of the nearby futures contract will drop to hitherto unimaginable depths, relative to the cash price, making backwardation worse, not better. Ultimately this will make backwardation irreversible. Welcome to the world of permanent gold backwardation.

From what hole does the evil deflationary wind blow?

Academia and the financial press have utterly failed to recognize the relevance of gold backwardation as regards deflation. They might fret about hyperinflation as a result of unbridled money-printing (euphemism for the monetization of government debt). Yet the real danger is not on the inflationary but on the deflationary front as realized even by Krugman – while he is perfectly clueless on the question from what hole the evil deflationary wind blows (other than conservative wishful thinking).

Well, I can pinpoint the location of the hole to within yards for the benefit of Krugman. It is on Constitution Avenue, in Washington, D.C. The evil deflationary wind is blowing from the building of Federal Reserve Board.

If Bernanke thought that his attacks on the gold price would stem deflation, well, his efforts were counter-productive, to put it mildly. They have, in fact, made the flight into physical gold accelerate. Permanent backwardation of gold, and its concomitant, the re-invention of barter – the ultimate in deflation – will be the result.

There is no reason to fear that the Fed is pushing the world into hyper-inflation. In fighting the gold price the Fed unwittingly pushes the world into hyper-deflation.

All the same, it is destroying the dollar and the international monetary and payments system.

* "The Last Contango In Washington," www.professorfekete.com, 2006-06-30.

Dr. Antal Fekete is an esteemed author, mathematician, monetary scientist and educator. Antal is well known today for his revolutionary plan for a "parallel" gold-coin oriented monetary system that can over time remove us from the Federal Reserve System.

[www.bbc.co.uk]

Big thinkers still stumped on global economic crisis
By Andrew Walker

BBC World Service economics correspondent, Washington

Like a cat stuck up a tree, economists say they have no idea how to rescue the global economy


'Subdued mood' as finance chiefs meet Watch
Grim IMF forecast on eurozone growth Watch
More than five years after the onset of the financial crisis, you might have thought economic policy makers would know what to do next.

Well they don't. Or at the very least, there is nothing like the kind of consensus that prevailed before the financial crisis.

The International Monetary Fund (IMF) has been hosting a conference on rethinking economic policy, organised by four experts in the area, including the IMF's own chief economist.

One of the other organisers - the Nobel Prize winner George Akerlof of the University of California - had a vivid analogy for the state of uncertainty the economics profession now faces.

"It's as if a cat has climbed this huge tree - the cat of course is this huge crisis. My view is 'oh my God the cat's going to fall and I don't know what to do'."

Another one of the organisers, David Romer also of the University of California, picked up the analogy: "The cat's been up the tree for five years. It's time to get the cat down from the tree and make sure it doesn't go back up."

The trouble for the economics profession is, according to the last of the conference hosts and another Nobel Prize winner, Joseph Stiglitz: "There is no good economic theory that explains why the cat is still up the tree".

Changed world
No more cats I promise. But the analogy give a sense of the degree of uncertainty this stellar gathering of economists grappled with.


Nobel Prize winner Joseph Stiglitz says there is no theory to explain the ongoing economic crisis
It is a very different world from the apparently more comfortable one we lived in before the crisis.

What were the key features of that world?

The main economic policy tool was in the hands of central banks. They set interest rates, raising them to keep inflation low and cutting them when the economy was weak.

Fiscal policy - government spending and taxation - was no longer seen as part of the routine toolkit for keeping the economy on an even keel.

Financial regulation was for the most part relatively light touch.

What we got was the worst financial crisis and the deepest recession for the wider economy since the Great Depression in the 1930s.

For Joseph Stiglitz, the crisis was evidence for his view that "economies are not necessarily stable or self-correcting".

There was quite a lot of support for that kind of view and for the idea that various state agencies have an important role in doing something about it.

Many favoured more financial regulation, especially measures that are intended to help stabilise the whole financial system rather than individual banks.

Continue reading the main story
“
Start Quote

"We don't have a sense of our final destination… Where we end I really don't have much of a clue."”

Olivier Blanchard
IMF chief economist
If you really want to know, it's called macro-prudential policy and it's an idea that has really built up a head of steam in the last few years.

One example is a limit on the size of loans relative to the price of the asset such as a house that it's used to buy - the loan-to-value ratio.

It sounds like a reasonable idea, but there was acknowledgement that these policies and their effects are not well understood.

And David Romer, one of the organisers, didn't think he had heard anything big enough to produce a really robust financial system.

Then there is monetary policy. Before the crisis the main tool was interest rates, but the toolkit has since expanded to include quantitative easing - shovelling money into the financial system hoping it will stimulate more spending.

There was support for that but it wasn't universal.

'Not a clue'
Allan Meltzer of Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania for one thought it was a huge amount of stimulus with very little effect.


Academics are divided on the merits of economic stimulus
There is also a debate about what should be the aim of monetary policy.

The idea of inflation targets gained widespread acceptance ahead of the crisis.

Now there is a debate about whether that's enough, but there was no consensus on whether change is needed.

David Romer said the approach seemed good for 15 or 20 years, but subsequently showed itself incapable of generating enough demand in the economy.

But Stefan Gerlach of Goethe University in Frankfurt argued that "it doesn't really make sense to rethink the entire monetary policy framework for an event that happens about once in a century".

There was no great enthusiasm for the rapid increase in government debt in the rich countries over the last few years, but few would go as far as the conservative view of Allan Meltzer:

"If we want financial stability, economic stability and other good things don't we begin by restricting budget deficits? Formally, indefinitely and for all future time?"

Which leaves us where? Confused? You are not the only one.

There were plenty of ideas for sure. But this is how the IMF's chief economist Olivier Blanchard put it at the end of the conference:

"We don't have a sense of our final destination… Where we end I really don't have much of a clue."

That may be disconcerting, but then the crisis has been an enormous jolt to economic policy, and it would perhaps be even more unsettling if there weren't some fundamental rethinking going on.

Go-Rebels - Again, you are talking about things that you clearly don't have a full understanding of. I'm not trying to sound hard here, but I traded in stocks for years and you are posting partial truths. Yes, options (calls and puts) were basically (originally) devices used as hedges to e.g. - lock in a farmers crop at a future date to guarantee the farmer a decent return on the harvest - not as much as it would have been if everything went fine - but great if the crop failed due to weather, accident, etc. Basically they are hedges. But, that is an "option" contract that actually is being fulfilled or delivered. In other words you buy the "call option" with the intention of taking delivery of it at a future date. You can actually do this with precious metals, but it is almost never done. We also use puts to protect us should a stock we own might go down, but we don't want to sell the stock and buy it back later as that would change our capital gains tax (for example). So, hold your stock and just buy some puts and profit off the fall. If not, consider it just a short term insurance policy. The 500 ton gold short was nothing like the preceding examples. It had only one intention.

Now, let's put things in perspective, since you completely left that out and also gave a more traditional definition of a "put" which totally removes the manipulative ways they have been being used for years. A large bank sold 500 tons (I just checked, it wasn't 400 tons) of put options without any intention of ever actually selling that much gold at that price. You see, they don't have that much gold to sell. They sold it with the SOLE intention of bringing the price down. It does that like clock work. Why don't you mention that part, the important part? That is why I say you have an agenda. You skip the main points and dwell on past facts and then add personal opinions. It is worth noting that there was a meeting with bankers and the president the day before the huge put option was done (see following link). I just found out that some states had been asking for their gold reserves back from the Fed when it was at $1600 an ounce.
Quote - On April 17, former U.S. Army Lieutenant Colonel Roy Potter issued a statement that the recent drop in gold prices was due to a forced manipulation by the central bank as a message to the states that were either demanding their physical gold back from the Fed, or who were passing legislation allowing for the free use of gold and silver. Not coincidentally, the dumping of 500 tons of paper gold onto the markets came one day after President Barack Obama's meeting with many high officials in the banking industry, to include Lloyd Blankfein and Jamie Dimon.

It appears the Fed does not want this to happen as it would really hurt things: [www.examiner.com]

Further, if me or you or any individual tried to manipulate the market with such a GIGANTIC sell, we would have one or more alphabet agencies at out door. You definition of put option serves no function regarding how these puts were used. You talk in simple terms about something so large that your words clearly, so very clearly, show you have no understanding of it. I'm just calling a detector a detector here. It is clear to me cause I understand this better than most. I'm not a professional now, but I was and I was good. But then I noticed the manipulation and didn't want to play that game anymore so made my exit. I don't question Tom or even most of the guys here when I know they know their stuff on certain things. It is not personal with you at all, please don't take it that way. I just want to make clear that you don't really undestand this topic.

The reason that we see the gold/dollar relationship only being valid for so many years, is because of pure manipulation. If you want a book of information, just go to GATA.org as has been mentioned here before. We are experiencing inflation at levels never before seen. But, it is true the relationship is not linear regarding the gold/Dollar releationship. It can't be because most of the hyperinflated money doesn't see our hands. It is in the hands of a few at the top and they do with it as they choose, and you can be sure non of it is used to at all make the dollar look bad, like with buying gold.

Do you really understand how bad things are? Do you know how close we are to not only our USD collapsing, but perhaps some Euro States Euros as well? Do you understand that we print money to just cover the debt of the bonds that WE print? Imagine you are a bank and you just printed money to cover your debt... for YEARS. Thinks about it... It is far worse than TV would have you believe. All that said, I'm not at all saying gold is valuable, nor silver for that matter. 95% of the value is just because we give it value, the rest is electronics, jewelry, etc. But it is a valid store of value traditionally and since money is more about trust, gold, silver, bitcoins, etc are nice because the Centrally controlled states can't control them.. and that scares them to death, especially on something pseudanonymous (or anonymous if done right) like bitcoin. Moving large amounts of gold will get you investigated, as some Europeans crossing borders just found out. But having bitcoins in an online account that can be accessed anywhere in the world, is bankers worst dream. They are actually starting to use bitcoins in Argentina to get around the Government telling people what currencies they can use (The people try to get dollars there but the government steps in the way.)

Trumpets I can hear in the distance, I think they are calling our name. Maybe now you can't hear them, but you will... ehehehe, just kidding there, but it was Jimi's words, not mine...

While we are on an option tangant - A small quote from Dr. Paul Craig Roberts (very noted economist - [en.wikipedia.org])
"
What do the banks do with all the money that the Fed funnels into them?
They buy stock futures.

Look, how can you have a stock market at an all time high:
when consumer incomes are declining,
when the labor force participation rate is collapsing (because there are no jobs),
when retail sales are declining?
What is the basis for this market?
"
To see some of his thoughts which are pretty clear, just go to the 13 minute mark, really worth the 10 minute listen: [www.youtube.com]

Albert

Albert, I'm beginning to wonder about how and where you get your news. What would be the purpose of the big 'put' option exercised by the Fed Banks?

- It is a mistake to reference Colonel Potter, a well recognized Right Wing Nut Job who correctly predicted the Boston bombing, as he claims the likelihood of calamity at all big events. He purports that this event was to be used by the Left to blame the Tea Party faction for the deaths. Good politics, no doubt, regardless of the fact that his rumblings have no basis in fact. I can't wait for his 4th of July doomsday prophesies...

- So Texas and others want their gold back and the Feds manipulate the market to reduce its value? So what? What would states care; they only want the metal? Who cares about it's fiat USD equivalent? It only makes it cheaper for the states to insure the stuff in their newly built Fort Knoxes. Maybe Rick Perry needs to thank Mr. Obama in the end!

- "We are experiencing inflation at levels never before seen..". I don't know where you live but I can get a 15 year mortgage under 3%. One of the other posters here mentions the risk of deflation. Which is it? No personal affront intended Albert but it appears you are simply fear mongering to those willing to listen.

- So the Fed buys stock futures, through the too-big-to-fail banks, to stimulate growth in the real economy. Sounds good to me. The effects on the precious metals market is miniscule compared to any measure of the real economy. This appears to be exactly what the Fed is charged to do.

Enough for now. I need to go to work in the real economy...

Be aware that interest rates HAVE to be kept artificially low at this point, because if they rise, we will not be able to service the interest on the debt.

Inflation, and how it is measured, is a funny thing. Look at the cost of certain goods/services that are necessary ( insurance costs for one). Are they going down ? The CPI is a joke, because it is so manipulated it's not even worth using.

Have you checked out the packaging of a lot of food products lately. Smaller package, less food...same price. I guess just because the price has not gone up, inflation is low.

This is not a real economy when the numbers are rigged. It's fake math. They need to keep the CPI rigged since it is used as part of economic equations to print GDP and other figures. You really think unemployment in this country is less than 10% ?

More people on food stamps, rising unemployment, stagnant wages, rising food and insurance costs, inflated stock market ( 'wealth effect'...what a crock of garbage).

Come on...the REAL economy ? No such thing.

[www.marketwatch.com]

Man, I can't follow half of what you guys have posted, but interesting none the less. Ray

I'll be darned:

"Our bias is to expect further declines in gold prices on the combination of continued ETF outflows as conviction in holding gold continues to wane as well as our economists' forecast for a reacceleration in U.S. growth later this year," they said.

The doom-and-gloom pessamists remind me of a line Jon Stewart used against the global warming deniers:

I don't believe the science. It's really cold... where I live... today.

Go-Rebels, no offense taken and I hope that is likewise. I see this as more of a friendly debate.

Rover pretty much hit the nail on the head regarding inflation. The reason you can get a cheap mortgage is because if they up the interest at all, things will get real bad in a heartbeat. Most economists agree here, no real debate. You are again way off base. You just don't have the background that some of us here have. I think you are getting your facts from FOX, CNN, etc.

Who is Colonel Potter? I am talking about a noted economist that served the former president for 2 years??? I would stick with his qualifications and if you wish I can start listing other quite notable economists, it's not a one off. Sounds like you are trying to discredit through association.

If the Fed manipulates gold prices down, and they CLEARLY are, that means that they are taking money from the States, not to mention from the people. Don't you see that? They are devaluing something that could benefit the States. The States want to back their money with something. They are quite afraid of losing monetary control. I'm not saying they are legally wrong, that is up in the air, but morally wrong without a doubt. And I would imagine since we would be thrown in jail for what they are doing, a court of law would also find them guilty. But if big banks are to big to fail, than what about the government?
Also, Germany asked for a huge amount of Gold back. You do know that cause I posted it in this thread. Why not mention Countries??? You really know how to sidetrack things. Stick to the facts.

Do you really think that buying options in the stock market helps things? That goes into shareholders pockets. It is just another form of manipulation. They are using the "strong" stock market to show the USD and America is strong. Why? Cause no one wants USD or bonds. They add to that the "weak" price of gold and silver, and traditionally speaking (before all the manipulation began) they have a point! It doesn't stimulate the economy as it doesn't go into the economy. Look at the unemployment rate (more like 23.5% and dropping if you use 1980's stats), look at the state of things overall, look at them knocking on Syria's door, and Iran as well, when we don't even have money for education and taking care of our own people. Seriously, how can you even argue these points? I'm at a loss.

You associate speaking observational facts with fear mongering? Have you looked at how crappy things are? Come on, really. If things were rosy, then yeah, but they are not.

Albert

I'll be darned. A hacked AP twitter account sends out a fake tweet with negative connotations....and the S and P flash dives for a minute. Wonder how many stops were triggered after that little 'test'. And how many millions were made on the VIX trade.

Welcome to the 'real' market.

Sounds like alot of people bought low and sold High....

I thought it was overinflated anyway....

To many commericials telling you to buy gold ....Never buy anything when it's being pushed on such a huge scale...

I had a buddy a few years back buying up silver at $5.00 an ounce.......I went with him to pick up 5,000 ounces....

He kept telling me to buy it (SILVER)....He even said take a loan out and buy about $30,000.00 in silver..

I think He spent about $200,000.00 roughly @ $5.00 an ounce....He sold it at $40.00 an ounce a few years back...

Yes He's setting pretty...I am still struggling....I should of listened to him....Shrewed ol country boy....

$20,00.00 of silver @ $5.00 an ounce would of got me debt free at the $40.00 an ounce resale... !!!!!!

I rememebr the guy we picked the 5,000 ounces up from had about 4,000 ounces of gold and my buddy did not even look at it ...I think gold was at around $400.00 an ounce then....Guess He knew better gold only increased about 4.5X's...... Silver went 8X's or more from then till He sold it...

Why was I with Him to pick up the Silver....Well He aslo had a Civil War collection He had dug in the 60's and 70's around Kennesaw Ga...It took up a huge are of the full basement He had....He had about 12 of the 6 foot long jewelry store display cases full of relic's along with about 120 or so artilery shell's...He wanted 25,000.00 for the colection...which was a steal...but out of my range....I think He had in minnie balls around 100,000 or so He estimated and it looked like it...the whole display case 6 foot long was slap full .

Just selling the bullet's at a 1.00 a piece would of got you 4x's return...

But I went home thought about it went back for another look and it was gone!A local dealer got it all for $20,000.00....


Keith

Keith,
its not too late to buy silver. Most bull markets last 17-20 years. Commodities are in their 13 th year. We have a few more years to go. Right at the very end of the bull market prices go straight up. The best is yet to come. The Pro money managers feel that silver COULD ( no guarantee) go up 1000% from where it is priced today. If the dollar does indeed collapse, ( we get hyperinflation) the prices of the precious metals will go sky high when panic sets in. Do some research and you have a great chance of having a very nice retirement. I loaded up on silver at $5-6 an oz, and still have it " buried in the woods" . When the panic sets in, i will put it up for sale. Then I will retire.

Hey possum. My CZ hit a large cache of Silver Eagles and Morgan Silver dollars just west of kinda near where you live. They yours ? Or maybe it was the cache of Maples and Peace Dollars that was east of you. HA !

Then again I thought you lost all of it in a 'boating accident' so they can't be yours.

possum, rover, etc. - Do you guys consider the silver/gold run to be a bull market? I don't really see it as that. If the dollar was just doing ok or average, I would tend to agree with possum. But do to the near collapsing currencies (or at least extremely inflated currencies) all over the world - I see it rather as an adjustment of true value (except the true part has been manipulated due to the short selling. It is very behind where it should be. Adjusted for inflation, silver should be around $300 and ounce and gold somewhere at $5,000 - $10,000. They will do all they can to not let that happen. So, what indicates to us a more true value of inflation, next topic.

Ss you know I am following bitcoin. Consider this fact, taken a day or two ago from the largest exchange MTGox - they do 70-80% of the business (which is dangerous for a decentralized anything):
They are seeing cash inflows of 5-20 million a day. They are seeing cash outflows of 300,000 - 1 million a day. The cash inflow is around a 17-20 times that of the outflow.
Now, add to that the waiting list for account verifications there. That is around 10,000 - 20,000 people (I can't find the latest numbers) - Last I heard they can add 1,000 or so accounts a day. (So 3 weeks of buyers waiting). Now, you can't short bitcoin, so those guys are just wanting to buy bitcoins. Put 2 + 2 together, this thing is going to explode up. It is not a bubble, it is a redistribution of money into a new currency/commodity/statement (I don't know, Bitcoin is more than that).

There are 11 million bitcoins currently. Each one divisible into 100,000,000 bits. (So, even if it went to $1,000,000 a bitcoin, you could still buy a cup of coffee with a fraction of 1). It will grow slowly eventually reaching 21 million or so. Do the math, look at the divisibility. I know it sounds crazy, but even if bitcoin starts to replace other payment systems (due to it being nearly free transaction wise), you are talking a price of well over $1000 a coin. But we are talking a global currency/commodity/technology that is going to attract a lot of people from first world countries as a store of value, considering the USD and other money's, situation.

Watch this price, extremely volitile. But I'm saying this is going to do things in an upward way that people won't understand. Yes, they will attack it, but it is antifragile in nature and there are other virtual currencies
waiting in line behind it. [bitcoin.clarkmoody.com] Of note, look at the buyers vs sellers. It is mostly buyers, supporting the previously given information.

The danger here is that the banks are going to probably start going after it eventually. But since FINCEN gave their ok on it, I think that point is 2 or so years away...
Either way, Bitcoin is a Black Swan. Remember Netscape navigator when the internet was just starting. That is where we are right now with virtual currencies. IT is just the beginning.

Albert

Albert, no offense taken from this side either. This is just a little debate with a few head slaps thrown in for good measure.

---

As to my reference to former U.S. Army Lieutenant Colonel Roy Potter, you opened that door yourself when you referenced [www.examiner.com] . Did you ever bother to read the text of what you referenced or did you only read the headlines! Is this really your noted economist? Here's Ray warning us on YouTube of an impending disaster! [www.youtube.com] .

As to your comments regarding states and monetary control, I'm afraid to tell you that the states DO NOT set monetary control. That power was ceded to the Federal Government some 220 years ago. Remember Albert, we are governed by the US Constitution, not the Articles of Confederation. The Articles were scrapped in March of 1789 for you-know-what.

If you don't like what the banks are doing... that they behave in a manner that is 'unfair' in your view, that they 'manipulate' the market, then it appears you are favoring some changes to the laws regulating banking and investment. Great! We are of a common opinion! So now the next step is to vote for legislators that share your opinion of banking. But you know if you go there you will be butting heads with some hard headed conservatives. Remember, regulations are what got us in this mess... (sure)

So Germany wanted their gold back, increasing demand, and the price drops $200 nevertheless! How does this support either argument? You appear stuck to make rational connections of every event in a futures market that is often influenced by pure emotion, greed and fear.

Maybe things are crappy where you sit, but don't believe that that is the case for everyone, everywhere. Remember: "I don't believe the science behind global warming. It's really cold... where I live... today."

Go-Rebels - You can't change the banks as the corruption is deep and tied in with the government. The only way to take them on is not to, it is to go around them, not support them. But we are a ways away from that.

eheheh - you got me laughing with the head slap comment.

Germany just wanted their gold back. That doesn't increase demand. The drop was due to the short sell, that overpowered the physical market as it set off automated selling AND the two markets, unfortunately, are closely tied (psychologically is my main guess. But also as a frontrunner to the hedge funds is my second guess.) I think America is worried other countries will follow suit and I am pretty sure they leased much of that gold out already (just like they did with almost all their own gold.)

My concern, really, is for humanity as a whole. It isn't about me or most of us in the 5%. Bitcoin, gold, silver, is somewhat of a statement, not to mention a more viable alternative currency (eventually I mean).
I don't have much, I'm just an English trainer, I could lose everything (minus my E-Trac ) and be just as happy tomorrow. I'm just doing my part as a human being, really that is how I feel.

Albert

Germanys gold wont be there long as countries looted by the Nazi want their gold back from the Germans ,as they need it right now

Albert.

I still see the Gold/Silver PHYSICAL market in a bull trend for a long while. I believe the fundamentals are overwhelming in terms of the reasons to own some physical gold and silver. I am not a gold/silver bug by any means, but I am allocating 25-30% of my cash into physical gold and silver bullion as well as liquidating some profits from stocks into it. Part of that is also due to getting a bit older, more conservative and actually being overweight in stocks. So it's somewhat of an asset class balancing act as well.

As far as Bitcoins go, when some exchanges fold, and others like Mt. Gox, the biggest, shut down due to 'volume' or possibly a DDoS attack, I have my reservations. The idea of a virtual currency without the governments ability to track it and manipulate it is a cool thing...but that also means a continued effort to shut it down or demolish it.

When the S and P can flash dive due to a false AP tweet, it tells me the paper markets are so overly dependent on algos and high frequency trading, that I don't think there is any thing stopping massive DDoS attacks in numerous forms. So part of my thought process now is I like lots of tangible assets...things I can see and feel. Cash, gold and silver bullion in a safe, land, goods, METAL DETECTORS !! HA ! etc. I always say even if the value of land goes to zero or negative due to it being worthless and still having to pay taxes on it...its something I can still stand on, and grow food on and pitch a tent on. When a bank account gets hacked and goes to zero, a stock portfolio drained and goes to zero or a bit coin wallet stolen, there ain't nothing there after.

Word is coming out of Europe that people are going to their bullion banks and requesting their physical metal, only to be told they cannot take it out. The banks then pay out in paper money instead! When the supply of gold dries up, we will see some healthy price appreciation. It could be soon. The paper gold market will then dry up and blow away. I would really like to see some high ranking banksters don those stripped suits !

possum mo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would really like to see some
> high ranking banksters don those stripped suits !

Unfortunately possum, our wonderful DOJ leader Holder stated that the big banksters are not only too big to fail, they are too big to jail.

The ONLY way these guys go to jail, is if the mass majority of the public demand it...and that can only happen at the voting booth. Even a 100 million people march to the Capital won't do it. Heck, we may be branded as terrorists if we did that.

No way the DOJ, SEC or whatever other so called 'law enforcement or regulatory commission' brands itself as...they will never jail them. You know what they do...they fine them. But the fine is NEVER near what they robbed. If I told you you could rob 1 billion dollars a year, and if you get caught, you would only have to pay 300 million in fines, and not go to jail, you would do it every time ( well, maybe not you nor most of us...most of us still have morals and a sense of truth and justice). Not these guys.

How the F__K is Jon Corzine still walking around and not in jail ? Sorry for the language, but this is a real touchy subject for me. I agree...some of these guys should be locked up for good.

Hi, hey I believe I'm learning more each day.....I agree it's unreal what certain people can get away with just because of who they are.....Embezzlement around here seems to be common practice,but yet they get away with a minimum penalty for their consequences.....Digital gold,,, wow, I never dreamed of that, I always thought there was only real gold....I thought about it today and there is digital money too.....I only put faith in what I can actually touch,see,smell,or taste....Other than my religious beliefs.....JJ

A proper ending to this thread: [www.thedailyshow.com]

Thank you Glenn Beck for the cameo appearance -

Hey Rebs, I think the goldbugs get the last laughs in the next few years. Time will tell. Keep an open mind..... keep reading.

Rover - Please see my post I did a bit before (as it addresses your questions for the most part) in the other thread regarding bitcoins - [www.dankowskidetectors.com]

Just to add some things, I'm not sure governments won't partially regulate it, at least in their own countries. I don't think Bitcoiners are completely against playing by the rules, they just don't want the government to centrally control it. It is a Stateless currency. If we had that the bankers would find it next to impossible to have wars. Think about that.

We are certainly living in interesting times and now computer hacking is really adding to things.

All the best and enjoy the ride the next few months. I have a feeling it is going to get quite interesting.

Albert

ps - Noticed gold shot up $50 today...

Hey Albert Gold jumped up today so did Oil....

Israel shot down a Drone and the U.S. says Syria is using gas on the rebel's......Nothing in Asia looks good either..

Crazy is it not!

Keith

go-rebels Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A proper ending to this thread:
> [www.thedailyshow.com]
> 3/the-golden-rage
>
> Thank you Glenn Beck for the cameo appearance -

Stewart is a funny guy. I believe his brother is COO of the NYSE so you can make your own conclusions.

Keith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey Albert Gold jumped up today so did Oil....
>
> Israel shot down a Drone and the U.S. says Syria
> is using gas on the rebel's......Nothing in Asia
> looks good either..
>
> Crazy is it not!
>
> Keith

The Syria thing really worries me. You can see the US wants in there. You can also see China and Russia don't want that. It is almost like another Afghanastan regarding the Russians and Americans supporting opposing forces, like a proxy war.

It appears as though things can go off at any moment and I really pray it doesn't go that rout. We are so close to turning things around and "They" don't want that. False flag attacks happen in times like these. (e.g. Gulf of Tonkin, etc.)

I have to get out and detect soon!

Albert