Bitcoin, really?

Quote
deathray
...but am really green on knowledge.

Green Morgans are some if the most sought after!

Haha,yeah I just saw that on the link you posted. Thanks,that was not only educational,but also eye candy!

Arthur-Canada Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anything that requires this much explanation, to
> me, is probably full of flaws no one wants to talk
> about. Reminds me of that old Shakespeare
> line...you "doth protest too much"! If something
> is that good and the concept is that simple, it
> should basically explain itself. Not the case here
> it seems. The only thing missing now seems to be a
> gun to my head saying ..."you are going to accept
> this as the new way of doing things or I put a
> bullet in your head"! It's just a fad right now in
> my opinion.

Arthur - Honestly, don't confuse "this much explanation" with the basics of what bitcoin is.
The heavy explanation is trying to allow everyone to see the disruptive/revolutionary technology.

Regarding the flaws, consider this, it has been on the internet since late 2009 and so far has not been broken. The problems are where it interacts with the end points (e.g. wallets, computers, exchanges, etc.)
It is open source, thousands of programmers, many of them VERY high level, have been through it with a fine toothed comb. It has been enhanced since the early days. It may very well have a weakness, but so far it hasn't been found in the code.
Like I said before, the protocol is here to stay as this is less about bitcoin and more about the technology that has been released. That cat is out of the bag.

Essentially, we are just waiting for that "killer app" to put it in the common persons hands and I admit as much. Remember in the early days of the internet all the slack it got and criticisms? I do. But once
AOL came out with those damn CD's everywhere (LOL) the game changed and the internet, in a sense, for the masses anyway, was born.
Well, the infrastructure is being laid this year, that is very clear if you are watching this space develop. (Just look at the huge amount of venture capital funds arriving.
And relative to the internet, in some ways bitcoin is more disruptive.

Regardless of bitcoin succeeding or not, this protocol underlying it all, is not going away. It is too powerful and beneficial. And when the apps arrive, you will clearly see it. We just are not there yet.

Albert

At the time of Go-Rebels post on April 24th 2013 bitcoin closed at $135.
It has been partly beaten on this board (and partly supported) since then.
It closed at about $675 yesterday. That is EXACTLY up 500%.

Understand it, don't understand it, agree or disagree. Believe Disbelieve. These numbers don't lie. And if you go back another year, oh boy...
The one last free market is telling us something. Best performing "currency" in the last few years, actually, in human history.
And for those that say "bubble", bubbles don't pop and come back 4+ times. That is price discovery.

I won't come on here with every big price move, but we are getting lost in the details and forgetting the measure.

Albert

"as this is less about bitcoin and more about the technology that has been released."


Wrong.

Yes....and there's a sucker born every minute!!!

Hundreds of folks ready to sue Bitcoin exchange MtGox
Brit-based firm says it's getting ready to file hefty class action lawsuit
By Brid-Aine Parnell, 5 Mar 2014


Over 400 people have expressed an interest in joining a class action lawsuit against Bitcoin exchange MtGox, according to a British-based law firm.

Selachii has been gathering up investors stung by the collapse of the exchange and the prospect that it may have lost 750,000 of its customers' Bitcoins and 100,000 of its own, totalling around $480m.

The firm said on its blog that "a class action by investors seems to be the only logical action that can be taken". MtGox is already being sued in the US for alleged negligence and fraud.

Selachii is planning to take the parent company of MtGox, KK Tibanne, and MtGox chief Mark Karpeles to court in London after it finishes finding potential claimants on Friday this week.

Richard Howlett, the co-founder of the law firm, told Reuters that there were more than 400 people already signed up "from every country you can think of".

He said it was impossible to say at this point what had caused the Bitcoin exchange to collapse, but the suit would take issue with the lack of disclosure by the exchange and the deposits made by customers right before the collapse.

"One of the problems and main issues that is leading to suspicion is the lack of information coming from MtGox," he told The Reg. "It is unknown at this stage if fraud is involved but this is something that will come out in disclosure."

MtGox has admitted on its website that it may have lost hundreds of thousands of Bitcoins "through the abuse of a bug in the Bitcoin system". The exchange is still only talking about the possibility of the Bitcoins having been stolen, though most users have already accepted that whatever happened, their Bitcoins are likely gone for good.

The exchange has claimed to have 127,000 creditors and liabilities of 6.5bn ($64m), with assets of just 3.84bn ($38m).

Howlett said that the investors who want to pursue the lawsuit just want their money and/or Bitcoins back.

"If MtGox contacted us today, we could resolve this without the necessity of a class action," he said. ®

Bitcoin bank Flexcoin pulls plug after cyber-robbers nick $610,000
Your money is gone. Kthxbye
By Shaun Nichols, 4 Mar 2014

Yet another Bitcoin institution has had its coffers drained by hackers and will be forced to shut down as a result.

Self-termed "Bitcoin bank" Flexcoin has told its customers that the theft of its Bitcoins, valued at $610,000 (£366,000), has driven the company over a cliff. Effective immediately, the site said it will be shutting down and suspending its service.

According to Flexcoin, the digital robbery occurred on March 2 when hackers were able to target and remove 895 BTC stored in the company's hot wallets. You can track the movement of the swiped crypto-currency from here and here.

"As Flexcoin does not have the resources, assets, or otherwise to come back from this loss, we are closing our doors immediately," the biz said.

It's worth pointing out that Flexcoin also kept some customers' BTC in cold wallets, which are stored offline and out of reach of the hot-wallet hackers: the company said funds stored in these cold wallets were not compromised, and can be retrieved through an identity verification process.

Other users, however, are being directed to Flexcoin's Terms of Service page, which notes that the company (what's left of it) is not liable for lost Bitcoin.

Touting itself as having solved "nearly every problem that exists with the Bitcoin currency today," Flexcoin had offered both hot and cold wallet storage as well as processing services for merchants looking to accept Bitcoin transactions. The company had sought to make money by collecting fees from certain transactions, but also offered free Bitcoin-to-Bitcoin transfers.

The shutdown marks the second time in as many weeks a Bitcoin exchange has been forced to shutdown after being raided by attackers.

Following weeks of speculation and protests from users, the MtGox exchange finally conceded to bankruptcy proceedings. That company was found to have left open a known vulnerability in its Bitcoin handling systems that allowed one or more attackers to pilfer roughly 750,000 Bitcoins and leave the site with a $63.8m debt in meatware currency.

Flexcoin said in February that it was not impacted by the MtGox attack. ®

When will people learn that unless you can hold it, or touch it, it isn't really yours? This isn't that hard of a concept to grasp. "Owners" of cyber gold or silver will face the same fate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2014 11:19PM by qwk.

I'm sure a lot of people would be wary of precious metal 'funds' and other related 'physical metal substitutes'. I know that a popular electronic gold/silver trading company, BullionVault go to some lengths reassuring customers that they actually have the appropriate quantity of real ingots in an official secure warehouse, to back up the electronic quantity they trade.

Just eliminate the threats.

[www.cnbc.com]

Pimento Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm sure a lot of people would be wary of precious
> metal 'funds' and other related 'physical metal
> substitutes'. I know that a popular electronic
> gold/silver trading company, BullionVault go to
> some lengths reassuring customers that they
> actually have the appropriate quantity of real
> ingots in an official secure warehouse, to back up
> the electronic quantity they trade.


So would you trust them with your money?

Q:"So would you trust them with your money?"
I presume you mean Bullionvault? Short answer,Yes. Mainly based on their size, which in turn means there is plenty of opinion, customer feedback, independant expert views and the like. I've traded in shares before, so I'm comfortable with the general concept of having nothing but a rather plain share certificate to show for what could be a significant amount of money.
My main concern is the general business of carrying out ANY financial transaction online. I don't like the idea of online banking, for example. I use PayPal escrow service, though I was a reluctant adopter, basically forced into it by eBay when they bullied users into offering it when selling. Stories of data theft seem commonplace in the news.

All sounds like snake oil to me. Bitcoin=computer geek monopoly play money to this dumb redneck,lol.

Pretty good Bitcoin article

[www.caseyresearch.com]

It's obvious there are folks waaaay ahead of me technologically speaking who believe in bitcoins. Including a lot of smart people here on this forum. So I'm willing to concede that my first instinct, "tulip bulbs", may be totally off the mark.

But Warren Buffett's credo is always good advice. If you can't understand it, don't buy it. You'll occasionally miss the boat on some future big thing, but you'll also avoid a lot of tulip bulbs.

TheOtherLeggoHead Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "as this is less about bitcoin and more about the
> technology that has been released."
>
>
> Wrong.

I presented an argument showing, clearly and spanning a few places in this thread, that bitcoin the technology is huge. That is where it is at, not the currency. Though that is nice. If the best you can present is "wrong" you are just hurting your own "argument".

Arther Canade - "Yes....and there's a sucker born every minute!!!"

I think you are confusing a lack of understanding with disagreement. They are not mutually inclusive.

And those posting about GOX, don't confuse a money with an exchange. When Lehman Brothers went down, did that mean the demise of the dollar? Rather, this is a sign of strength. There are people here using that as evidence, all the while the technology is new, in few hands, and it is valued at roughly $700 per btc. It had a high of $1200 and a few years back was pennies. Let that be a clue to look at the technology and benefits and not just try to find flaws.

Guys, if you don't understand something, that is no reason to criticise it. Again, I'm not saying this is the answer, but I have years of IT experience, and this technology is game changing, WHETHER OR NOT bitcoin succeeds. The protocol that it is (An internet of Money) is so valuable for so many reasons. Say goodby to most remittance fees. Transparent ownership ledgers are here, voting too! This technology, is anti corruptive. If you don't understand that, just do some research, that part is not opiniated, it is being developed and there are many articles to read about it.

Good luck in your ventures regardless,
Albert

Pimento Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Q:"So would you trust them with your money?"
> I presume you mean Bullionvault? Short answer,Yes.
> Mainly based on their size, which in turn means
> there is plenty of opinion, customer feedback,
> independant expert views and the like. I've traded
> in shares before, so I'm comfortable with the
> general concept of having nothing but a rather
> plain share certificate to show for what could be
> a significant amount of money.
> My main concern is the general business of
> carrying out ANY financial transaction online. I
> don't like the idea of online banking, for
> example. I use PayPal escrow service, though I was
> a reluctant adopter, basically forced into it by
> eBay when they bullied users into offering it when
> selling. Stories of data theft seem commonplace in
> the news.

You mean like "too big to fail"? Me, I'm going to stick to tangible things.

earthmansurfer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TheOtherLeggoHead Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > "as this is less about bitcoin and more about
> the
> > technology that has been released."
> >
> >
> > Wrong.
>
> I presented an argument showing, clearly and
> spanning a few places in this thread, that bitcoin
> the technology is huge. That is where it is at,
> not the currency. Though that is nice. If the best
> you can present is "wrong" you are just hurting
> your own "argument".
>
> Arther Canade - "Yes....and there's a sucker born
> every minute!!!"
>
> I think you are confusing a lack of understanding
> with disagreement. They are not mutually
> inclusive.
>
> And those posting about GOX, don't confuse a money
> with an exchange. When Lehman Brothers went down,
> did that mean the demise of the dollar? Rather,
> this is a sign of strength. There are people here
> using that as evidence, all the while the
> technology is new, in few hands, and it is valued
> at roughly $700 per btc. It had a high of $1200
> and a few years back was pennies. Let that be a
> clue to look at the technology and benefits and
> not just try to find flaws.
>
> Guys, if you don't understand something, that is
> no reason to criticise it. Again, I'm not saying
> this is the answer, but I have years of IT
> experience, and this technology is game changing,
> WHETHER OR NOT bitcoin succeeds. The protocol that
> it is (An internet of Money) is so valuable for so
> many reasons. Say goodby to most remittance fees.
> Transparent ownership ledgers are here, voting
> too! This technology, is anti corruptive. If you
> don't understand that, just do some research, that
> part is not opiniated, it is being developed and
> there are many articles to read about it.
>
> Good luck in your ventures regardless,
> Albert

Bitcoin is just another fad. What will prevent circulation of more Bitcoin (dilution)? Somebody's word? It takes physical labor to mine gold, silver etc., AND it's existence isn't infinite. Printing a $100 bill is just as easy as printing a $1 bill....at least that takes some effort....Bitcoin you don't even need to print so dilution is just a few keystrokes away.....this is a conman's dream come true....

Albert...so what's the play on the technology, as opposed to the currency ? Is it companies who make graphics cards, servers, battery backups, peer to peer security, etc. ?

qwk (and rover) - Bitcoin is a type of protocol. It is like ftp, or bittorrent (how did governments do making the latter illegal?) This is what people don't get in part - the network is the strength. If you are looking at it to just make money, then turn away. It isn't about that. It is about the other 6 billioin people, really. You can make a qwk coin if you want, but there is no network for it. So, no one will use it and the network can be attacked.

It takes work to "mine" bitcoins, but that is just one proof of work, there can be others. This is an experiment and one that solved the old problem of the double spend. It is finite, there can only be 21 million bitcoins (now at 12). It is in the code, to change that you need consensus, and not from the miners. But that question is in 2140 when the supply runs out, not to be debated now. Each bicoin has 100,000,000 bits, so there are quadrillions of bits to use as a money, as an alternative (the supple doesn't grow, you just value each bit more. That is what deflationary currency does). So qwk, one of the most basic points of bitcoin and all the other crypto's you are just flat wrong about. You should really just do some reading before making blank false statements.

Bitcoin has the largest computer network power on the PLANET. That gives the network security. No offense, but that question means you don't understand the technology. I don't say
that in a bad way as I understand it and am trying to show the strong points. It has weak points. But THE point is, one of these cryptocurrencies will succeed. The network is part of the "intrinsic" worth, though that word is sort of man made...

Trust mathematics and cryptography over private banks, institutions and corrupt government. These technologies will force them to change their business model.
Just a step in the right direction, not an answer.

Again guys, there is a reason why the price is where it is at. (In large part speculation, but also more.) And if you want to throw words around, just consider, why some of venture capitalist (VC's), angel investors and investment funds are getting in. Not proof, but a sign. Lots of technology firms moving in. Some big companies (e.g. Overstock.com - 1 million USD in 2 months in btc sales) are using bitcoin. The list is growing exponentially.

Albert

@QWK:"You mean like "too big to fail"?
No, I never said that.
It's a bit academic, as I feel it's rather late to buy into gold/silver. Perhaps if I had been more serious about 'diversifying my portfolio' and 'spreading the risk' back in 2007 I would have considered their service, as I didn't like the idea of holding what would likely have been a few 1000 US dollars worth of metal. So then I would have to consider deposit boxes at banks etc. In the end, I never bought any, and I am unlikely to do so going forwards.

I understand the commerce side, as well as the technical, but I am wondering how to leverage what players out there will be part of the grand scheme. Kinda like how do you leverage the internet. You can't actually invest in the internet per se, but you can invest in the players that leverage it.

Rover - I see now. As is with most early investment opportunities, you need millions. You could only buy Google, Twitter, Facebook - pre IPO if had that kind of money
So, to invest in the companies out there, it really isn't possible unless you are a millionair.
The interesting thing here, is you can get in early (relatively) by buying bitcoin. Think of it as a leverage play. Even the big investors into bitcoin ventures also bought
actual bitcoin. So, imo it is not a bad "gamble" per say.

The technology is revolutionary. The only real risks I see are two main things:
1 - A hidden flaw that breaks it. This would have to be huge. The code has been gone through by some of the best programmers already (it is open source) and it has been out since 2009.
2 - Governments making it illegal. That is a huge stretch at this point, at least in the democratic countries. But, that is the chance.

High risk - High rewards, but again, this really isn't about the return per say.

One more time for those that missed it (as it relates to the investment part), bitcoin is a:
protocol
currency
payment system
asset/commodity
platform (for further programming)
disruptive technology (Black Swan, you don't see it coming. Also Anti-Fragile in that it is strengthening with each type of new attack)
"stock" (in the sense of the intrinsic value of the network and what can be built on it)
decentralized entity (don't confuse the exchanges with Bitcoin - capital B, that is the network, bitcoin - little b, that is the currency)
Essentially it is an Ownership Ledger - This is what people miss. The owership ledger can be used for money (bitcoin) but also for voting, ownership of stocks, car titles, etc.
???

Now, when you add this up and think of buying "bitcoin", you are not just doing that. It comes as a foundation to a much larger entity that we really don't grip yet. Satoshi made this to be a money, but he opened up a hole can of worms.

Albert

earthmansurfer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> qwk (and rover) - Bitcoin is a type of protocol.
> It is like ftp, or bittorrent (how did governments
> do making the latter illegal?) This is what people
> don't get in part - the network is the strength.
> If you are looking at it to just make money, then
> turn away. It isn't about that. It is about the
> other 6 billioin people, really. You can make a
> qwk coin if you want, but there is no network for
> it. So, no one will use it and the network can be
> attacked.
>
> It takes work to "mine" bitcoins, but that is just
> one proof of work, there can be others. This is an
> experiment and one that solved the old problem of
> the double spend. It is finite, there can only be
> 21 million bitcoins (now at 12). It is in the
> code, to change that you need consensus, and not
> from the miners. But that question is in 2140 when
> the supply runs out, not to be debated now. Each
> bicoin has 100,000,000 bits, so there are
> quadrillions of bits to use as a money, as an
> alternative (the supple doesn't grow, you just
> value each bit more. That is what deflationary
> currency does). So qwk, one of the most basic
> points of bitcoin and all the other crypto's you
> are just flat wrong about. You should really just
> do some reading before making blank false
> statements.
>
> Bitcoin has the largest computer network power on
> the PLANET. That gives the network security. No
> offense, but that question means you don't
> understand the technology. I don't say
> that in a bad way as I understand it and am trying
> to show the strong points. It has weak points. But
> THE point is, one of these cryptocurrencies will
> succeed. The network is part of the "intrinsic"
> worth, though that word is sort of man made...
>
> Trust mathematics and cryptography over private
> banks, institutions and corrupt government. These
> technologies will force them to change their
> business model.
> Just a step in the right direction, not an
> answer.
>
> Again guys, there is a reason why the price is
> where it is at. (In large part speculation, but
> also more.) And if you want to throw words around,
> just consider, why some of venture capitalist
> (VC's), angel investors and investment funds are
> getting in. Not proof, but a sign. Lots of
> technology firms moving in. Some big companies
> (e.g. Overstock.com - 1 million USD in 2 months in
> btc sales) are using bitcoin. The list is growing
> exponentially.
>
> Albert
If I made a qwk coin out of gold, it wouldn't have value, and nobody would take it? Are you sure?

I'm a huge geek, math major, and follow technology very closely(own one of the first few Tesla Model S cars). I totally understand what bitcoin is about, and how it works. Having said that, any currency that is man-made, and has a value put on it based on the size of the organization backing it, and not the physical properties, has always failed. History always repeats itself. We as humans have a very difficult time learning from history...

Physical gold, silver etc. can be stolen, BUT nobody is going to steal it over a computer, or by printing more, therefore diluting the value....EVER. Governments can manipulate it's worth to a point, but only because most of trades of these commodities is on paper, or electronic, and not actually physical...sound familiar?

Pimento Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> @QWK:"You mean like "too big to fail"?
> No, I never said that.
> It's a bit academic, as I feel it's rather late to
> buy into gold/silver. Perhaps if I had been more
> serious about 'diversifying my portfolio' and
> 'spreading the risk' back in 2007 I would have
> considered their service, as I didn't like the
> idea of holding what would likely have been a few
> 1000 US dollars worth of metal. So then I would
> have to consider deposit boxes at banks etc. In
> the end, I never bought any, and I am unlikely to
> do so going forwards.

I guess I misunderstood. You wrote that your trust in them is "mainly based on their size". Don't worry, I used to think the same way, until I got older and wiser. The US was a huge superpower, and I thought that the dollar was immune. It was after all backed by the best country in the world. Boy, was I ever wrong. In the last 10 years, inflation has been insane, and the same exact dollar bill that is used today, bough so much more 10..20..30 years ago. What would you rather dig, a couple of $20 dollar bills, or a couple of double eagles? They have the same face value.....

A young American woman who ran the First Meta bitcoin exchange was found dead in her Singapore apartment last week. Police are investigating the “unnatural death”.

Autumn Radtke was found on the morning of February 26 after Police received an emergency call from an apartment building. She was pronounced dead at the scene. A preliminary police investigation has ruled out foul play, but neighbors told police they suspected Radtke jumped from an apartment.

First Meta Ltd. issued a statement on its website, saying they were ‘shocked and saddened’ by the news and gave their deepest condolences to Radtke’s family.

"The First Meta team is shocked and saddened by the tragic loss of our friend and CEO Autumn Radtke. Our deepest condolences go out to her family, friends and loved ones. Autumn was an inspiration to all of us and she will be sorely missed,” the statement said.

The death of the 28-year old followed a tumultuous week for the virtual currency. Mt.Gox, once bitcoin’s largest online exchange filed for bankruptcy on February 28 after $63 million worth of bitcoin went missing. The headline-grabbing currency has been shrouded in controversy since.

Prices fell sharply, and the day Mt.Gox closed, the cryptocurrency was listed at $565, less than half its value in November.

Neighbor and fellow bitcoin start-up entrepreneur Steve Beauregard lived in the same residential complex as Radtke and said her death wasn’t related to her business. Beauregard is the CEO and founder of GoCoin, a bitcoin processer started in April 2013.

"This wasn't a bitcoin-related death. She had other things going on in her life. Collectively, there were a lot of small factors. ... It appears she picked a permanent solution to a lot of short term problems," Beauregard told Reuters.

First Meta is an online exchange for virtual currencies and real money, and is funded by Silicon Valley incubator Plug and Play.

Scott Robinson, an employee at Plug and Play, described Radtke as ambitious, "She was a go-getter, she always worked very hard ... she stuck out as one of the only women representing bitcoin."

Like many governments, Singapore doesn’t recognize the legitimacy of the bitcoin currency, and has said they are not legal tender and users should know the risks.

Singapore has long attracted a large expatriate community because of the special tax exemptions it can offer as an independent state and has favorable conditions for start-ups.

Radtke moved from California to Singapore in 2012, where previously she worked at a video game currency start-up company. According to her LinkedIn professional profile, she held positions at tech start ups Xfire and Geodelic Systems.

[rt.com]

@QWK: Long-term, we've had more inflation in the U.K than you US guys, that's for sure. It's about 80-fold since 1890, (though that's just one measure), whereas you've had 35-fold? (not sure on US data). Back then, our Sovereign gold coin (8 grams 22 ct, vaguely similar to a 5 dollar half-eagle) was valued at 1 Pound Sterling. So , inflation-corrected, it should be worth 80 Pounds today. However they are actually worth about 200 Pounds. I can't decide what that says - gold is overvalued currently?(should be 550 dollars/oz?) Inflation data is imprecise? I think this calculation gives similar results in dollar terms, too - Double-eagles are worth 1250 dollars?

Just for fun, our inflation is 5000-fold since early Medieval times, say 1100AD. Those hammered silver pennies we find, worth 1/240th of a Pound, are considered to have a modern-day equivalent spending-power of 20 Pounds (a days wage for a farm labourer).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2014 08:40PM by Pimento.

qwk Wrote:
> > Albert
> If I made a qwk coin out of gold, it wouldn't have
> value, and nobody would take it? Are you sure?
>
> I'm a huge geek, math major, and follow technology
> very closely(own one of the first few Tesla Model
> S cars). I totally understand what bitcoin is
> about, and how it works. Having said that, any
> currency that is man-made, and has a value put on
> it based on the size of the organization backing
> it, and not the physical properties, has always
> failed. History always repeats itself. We as
> humans have a very difficult time learning from
> history...
>
> Physical gold, silver etc. can be stolen, BUT
> nobody is going to steal it over a computer, or by
> printing more, therefore diluting the
> value....EVER. Governments can manipulate it's
> worth to a point, but only because most of trades
> of these commodities is on paper, or electronic,
> and not actually physical...sound familiar?


qwk - I meant one can make their own coin and copy bitcoin, but not having network strength is the problem. If you meant backing your "bitcoin" with gold, in a vault, etc. - Sure that would work but then we have the problem of 3rd party risk and centralization. But we are still just talking a currency now, bitcoin is a list of things, one of with could be a gold ownership ledger, that you speak of.
Bitcoin mostly solves the centralization problem (I say that because exchanges, though decentralized, can occur too much power in any one place. e.g. Mt. Gox). 3rd party risk just comes with centralization. The other risk is "Is our gold really in your vault like
you say." See Germany when they asked to SEE their gold and wanted half back from American banks. Tungsten filled gold also comes to mind. But, I'm not anti-gold per say, it is just another means. Bitcoin is more a digital gold, asset wise. And, try taking a lot of money across a border in gold. It is a great asset, but not a whole lot more (outside jewelery and industry). As a money, bitcoin blows it out of the water and then some. It just does so much more.

Money is faith, I think we can all agree on that. Gold is faith, it's "intrinsic value" is a little bit of industry and some jewelry. I think I read like 10% of it's value are those two things, so it is based on faith as well.
I just have more faith and trust in mathematics and cryptography. The problem is in the intermediary points. People, yourself included, are looking at the current state of Bitcoin and that is all fair. But, it is shortsighted as it is a young
technology. And problems are to be expected, but for the vast majority of the problems, it is not with bitcoin, it is with the connection points (e.g. wallets, computers, exchanges, etc.) To be expected with a new technology.
Go back and look at the early days of the internet, problems galore.

If you really understood bitcoin, I think you would be a bit more open about it. None of us really understand it. Come on, this has Black Swan written all over it. Even the man who created it, could not have envisioned what it is morphing into. (Not really spoken much about here.) I understand it somewhat, honestly. And people are commenting in blanket fashion negatively, who from the content of their posts, have NO idea about it. And that is ignorance. It is not just a digital money. I've put in Hundreds of hours, and then some and I somewhat understand what it can be and how it runs. I'm not a programmar so can't get into the nitty gritty, but what I see is DISRUPTIVE and no one here is talking about that and that is a key point. This is not to make money from. It is to partly disrupt corruption. This protocol is not just a currency, please people, understand that. When you see what this will do in the next few years (maybe not bitcoin, but the idea is out of the bag) you will be blown away.

You can't compare gold/silver with bitcoin EXCEPT as an asset, and perhaps silver to an extent as a currency. But even there, you can't pay for things online. You can't easily (or safely) take it with you on vacation. We are mostly talking apples and oranges. This is not a bitcoing vs. gold thing. They overlap, yes, but it is like comparing a bike to a a new technology that goes in the water, air, land and perhaps through time... ;-)

And yes, gold is HEAVILY manipulated. Anyone who watches the markets can see that. It is fun to see a bad economic news followed by a dump of a few million dollars in nake short (digital) sales. Bitcoin might be the only free market right now. Might, as I'm sure they are working on ways to slow it down. A strong US dollar is heavily dependent on crushing competition. It is precisely that that keeps gold/silver down.

Albert

just why arent Paypal moving in to this area of digital currency ?after all they have a head start on everybody else with a network in place .Or even Western Union with their long established money moving network around the globe.