Question on the 3D

Tom are the new 3D as good as the old one's??

No.......the new ones are good for approx 10.3" on a clad dime..........and most all of the older ones encroach 12" on a clad dime.......and sometimes slightly better. For many reasons/justifications...........this really hurts me.....and is a embarassment. I know the new ones could be better QA'd and QE'd. If the old FRL could do it..........the new FTP/Fisher can do it......especially since the worlds #1 detector engineer reigns at FTP.

credit for telling it like it is! Not many will do that.. greatly appreciated by US! thanks

Tom, your candor is deeply appreciated.
I don’t want to go on a rant but what I’m about to say is not directly to you but to everyone and especially FTP.


So what is FTP missing that FRL did not ?
I’m EXTREMELEY intolerant for down sizing, (especially re-engineering), outsourcing or generally F’ing up a good recipe.
If the techs are so damned good then ?
Are they using cheaper components?
I’m not sure of the shortcuts that have been taken. I’d be willing to bet its components.
Hopefully this is not in the name of simply making a higher profit margin.

FISHER - This is a real world scenario that even the guy running the weed eater outside your building will understand.

Take a shortcut + lower the quality and performance = Catastrophic Failure
There are no other variables in this equation.

Grant

I fully expect to be chastised for being honest. Yet, my motto is:

"I would rather hurt you with honesty.....than mislead you with a lie".

In furtherance; First Texas Products (Fisher) is in El Paso, TX. This is on the border of Mexico. Just across the street from FTP......in Mexico.......is where the CZ's are being built (and others). This is not a new or strange custom when you live on the border. Ironically/Strangely......the 'build' quality of the Mexican CZ's is superior......the best I have ever seen. They are very solid. I'm refering to the internal components. In my eyes, no shortcuts were taken with individual component compromise/quality/cost. All is solid........all is good. HOWEVER; the error lies in alignment "attention-to-detail". This is a minor....yet, very critical stage in the Mfr'g process. Yes, I'm well aware of the labor-intense (23 pot's) alignment procedure of the CZ's. BUT, old Fisher in California (Fisher Research Laboratory) had Mexicans building/aligning/assembling CZ's correctly (12" on a dime)...............until the last few months......when they caught wind of losing their jobs to El Paso; subsequently, attitude-attack ensued; hence, some of the last batches of CZ's were of 'questionable' performance. ((( Welcome to being human ))). A slap in my face.

The old Fisher would .....on a toothpick......rotate (end-over-end) a Zinc penny in front of a 8" coil....at a distance of 11-1/2".....and the unit would be calibrated for "Zinc window" and for distance. I believe Mexico is missing this critical step/procedure.........and is the primary reason for lower performance and batch inconsistencies.


With all of the above mentioned, , , this is why Dave Johnson applauds digital platforms. You can 'chunk' out digital circuit boards enmass..... w/virtually no alignment needed. CZ's are expensive to build.....and the profit margin is not good. The F75/T2 units are dirt-cheap to build. Most folks would be shocked if they knew how cheap the F75/T2 detectors cost. And this does not compromise build quality. BUT.....the serious expense incurred is in the R&D area. You could never imagine just how much 'thunk' time Dave Johnson and John Gardiner put into this platform. Never to be recup'd. And I know Dave's brain is a 24/7 mode........of which.........most of this time is NOT on the clock. I think John's brain is in the same arena. And we take this for granted; insomuch as to yell at them for wanting more! ((( Starting with me )))! Gratitude is underutilized.

YET, a critical minor step continues to cripple new CZ's. The $200 Garrett ACE-250 has the same air-test depth as a $1000 Mexican CZ-3D. Ouch.

......If only to be back where we were 15 years ago.

Tom

23 potentiometers... OMG!

Um, wow.... I'm speechless. This is a lot of information. I need to read this again.

Thank you Tom;
I think that all of us out here are now “in the know”
I could never condone the actions of those previous FRL employees however I can now understand.
This is a relief and I personally can now stop the roaring and nail biting.
This new insight will keep us from pondering the worst case scenarios as I previously did regarding changes with respect to FTP versus FRL.
Hopefully any and all further quality control or post production setup issues will be swiftly resolved. I believe my level of faith with Fisher for the most part, has been restored.


Thank you,
Grant

This issue with the new CZ 3D is something that I find very interesting, mostly because I had just purchased one a couple of months ago. Some of you may already be familiar with the issue I had with my 3D. It had only air tested a dime at 6 inches and I sent it back to Fisher. To make a long story short, their top tech Daniel Snell had spent a extra amount of time on my 3D because of the issues being raised on the forums regarding it. He actually went over the machine twice. The detector was returned to me in a timely manner and it now air tests a dime at 10.5 inches. Daniel said he did the best he could with my machine and I believe him. I have no problem with Fisher. Felix and the Fisher people are great to deal with.
However, Toms comment on the superior quality of the internal components of the new 3D leaves me very perplexed. All this time most of us were thinking the problem with these new machines were inferior parts. Instead, it is a matter of "alignment". My #1021 U.S. made 3D I recently acquired, air tests a dime at 12",(many thanks to Tom). I still would like to see my Mexican made one perform that well. With absolutely no disrespect to Daniel or Fisher I still have to wonder: "Is it possible for someone else like Tom or Keith to adjust this machine so it hits the 12 inch air test?" If it is possible then why couldnt it be done at Fisher? And if it cant, Why? Especially with the "superior internal components" I really think Fisher can resolve this problem. But, I have a feeling that Fisher may also end up just totally discontinuing the 3D because of the cost involved in producing it. Everything comes down to dollars and cents. And if that is the case,the Mexican made 3Ds could be just as desirable as the U.S. made ones, especially if they resolve the "alignment" issue.
Aaron



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2010 10:24AM by Aaron.

Aaron,
I my self almost bout a Texas made CZ-3D because I think these CZ-3D detectors are good, but was concerned of their accuracy and build quality from new managment at Fisher Texas. And acquiring a older model is hard. And if you are lucky to get an older one, hopefully it was taken care of.

I was able to acquire a #1021 Los Banos, CA CZ-3D recently. It was used very,very little. Air tested +11" clad dime. I found the nickel window out of tune. The bottom coil was scratched. Other than that it was well cared for. I have the original box and paperwork along with the Warrenty card.

I had intentions of selling it due to a few reasons. First, I allready have one. These Los Banos made detectors are getting harder to get, that's why I am keeping it. I would have no issues buying New from Fisher at Texas but don't want to take the risk. Yes there are some who have been lucky to a "good" one from them. But I am not depleating my bank account to find a good one.

Over the years I have had CZ7s, CZ-3Ds, CZ5s. Their quality was superb, well made instuments. Recently I have purchased a few F75s and LTDs and am not happy with their quality. Honestly, the quality of workmanship is fair. The F75 coils look very cheep, silicone used inside the screw holes is messy, screens are super, super flimsy, cable coil is of poor quality(my New F75 LTD coil has to sent back to Fiser because if a small cut on the coil), screen faces are not centered on buttons. I am tired of paying $1000.00 dollars on a Fisher unit that might be good. Some air test better than others some are more stable than others. I can take two identical F75 LTDs and find one either air tests deeper or more stable than the other. Where is the quality controll? Another example of quality controll is the subject of this post. CZ-3Ds were designed to air test 11" back 15 years ago, today you get 6-8". And you send it back to be fixed and the "best" they can get is 10.5".

I have had other detectors that were very consistant in their build quality and operation. I am not sure what's going on at Fisher, but they need to step up to the plate. Yeah they are good detectors but...

I hope you can get your CZ-3D at it's designed 11", if not live with what you have. You can allways keep your eye out for an older unit or, broaden your horizions.

I am done with Fisher, I have moved on. No more guess work with them. You buy a product from White's or Minelab and you get real good quality. My Minelab's search coil is by far of superior quality to a Fisher F75 LTD's, by far. So is a White's search coil, and that just the coils. My F75 LTD looks like a toy compared to my Minelab. Thes detectors find old coins just as well as Fisher does. And they go deep as well.

Like I said before, I would support Fisher hands down and buy them. But I am tired of spending hard earned money on a product that has low QT and poorly built. Maybe I am being hard, but read these forums and talk to others.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2010 09:10PM by coinhunter.

You hit a nerve with me. I had one of the original first run CZ-3Ds 1021 machines. This was one of the hotest machines I ever had. But like a fool I traded it in on a F-75. I never did like the F-75 like you said the build quality was cheap. I also cound not beleive the way they caulked the coil. Also mine was not deep. So I sold it and bought a new CZ-3D. It was no were near as deep as my 1021 CZ-3D. Also the catagories were off. Old indians that would read square pull tabs in normal mode that should read zinc high tone in enhanced mode now read high coins. It skipped a catagorie! I called first texas and talked to a tech. He told me as long as I was getting a high tone it didn't matter about the catagorie? Anyways to make along story not much longer I sent it back 3 times. They got it close but it never was rite. But in the long run it was a good thing because it forced me to get a E-TRAC. Other than the weight has been every bit as hot if not hotter than my 1021 CZ-3D. But someday I still want to get another CZ-3D as a second machine.

I speak for my self here and say I got "tunnel Vision". Last month I got the bug to get back into metal detecting. At that time all I read was how high in dameand the Fisher F75 and LTDs were. I guess them being unattainable attracted me to them. And yes they are good deep seaking machins, no doubt. So when they became available I bought them, both the F75 and LTDs(which I paid high $$$ for). I did ask questions here in regards to if I should buy a F75, the reply was that it would be a little better than my CZ-3D, more of a relic hunters machine. I am strickly a coin shooter.

Then, all the hoopla was over the LTD, has the boost. Better machine over the F75, and a deeper one. It's cammo pattern and only so many are being made. On a whim I bought a Minelab Explorer SE Pro along with the F75s and LTDs. Never ever imagined in my wildest dreams would I have thought of useing a Minelab. In my neck of the woods, White's is king. And Fisher doesn't even come 3rd around here. Next best thing was Garrett.

Along with my #1121 CZ-3D I was going to use the LTD. Got rid of the the F75s because they were not going to be benificial to me over the CZ, only reason I bought one was the hype the F75 was crating and that's my fault. So I looked to my LTDs. Doing some resarch, and reading post after post all I that was written was LTD this, LTD that. Well I am a perticular kinda guy. I pay attention to details. I had CZs and all were good quaility, well made. I assembled my LTDs and just noticed one thing after another on it's poor quality. And hearing that one LTD is hotter than another. And how the Texas CZ-3Ds are not tuned properly hit a nerve in me. So it came down to, you just don't know what ur gonna get with Fisher, either a good one or a bad one. It's a fact the QT is low. I rather stick with a product that is consistently good every time you or I buy one.

There's lots of people who want CZ-3Ds now, but are affraid to buy one from Mexico. What's is all the hoopla over these F75s and LTDs anyway? Why are they unattianable and sell for outrageous prices? Is Fisher the only one with the latest and gratest tecnology, no they are not.

I think only time will tell how the F75 and LTD hold up to build quality and preformance. There's people waiting behind the lines with their LTDs ready to hit the same spots they hit with their other detectors to see if it sucks up silver that was missed. And I hope they have good luck.

There are a few other name brand detectors out there but seem to be in the shadows on this forum. I am one of them that will be going to a different tecnology this spring. A tecnology that has been around for a while and that has also come up with some new tecnology of its own. I am going to a product that has no hype, no special limited run or colors. It seems that it's all Fisher has right now to keep them in business.

The F75 is not cheap for a light weighted detector that you can hunt with all day at age 54 with the depth the speed the unmasking and what it finds that the CZ3 and I have one can't how can you call it cheap?

Sure the CZ3 is a truck well built heavy for me another great unit that is my back up to the LTD and my F75 but I only use it for EMI. The LTD is a great machine and gives you the info that the CZ doesn't give.

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

Somtimes we just can't fit into a new detector or it doesn't fit us. I have found the LTD is very light so you can't toss it in your SUV but just like anything you have to be a bit more protective of it. It is not cheap or badly built! And I think Fisher has moved to the top of the class with this new design. Taking the lead as the #1 company that is in my view! I love the unit the speed the way it talks to me about what it is seeing in the ground. I have a CZ 3 and I only use it when I have to. But to each his own.

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

There are some folks that equate light weight with cheap quality. Performance becomes a secondary factor because their experience tells them that good detectors must be heavy and unbalanced. These folks praise the good ole' quality of Ford's Crown Victoria while bashing the 40 mpg Honda Fit for cheapness.

Minelab will eventually make a new flagship detector that will weigh-in at that of the new Fishers and their legion of fans will lament the death of their lineup citing the poor quality of their plastic components and cheap surface mounted printed circuit boards within. But that may happen later than sooner, and their expectation of what a modern metal detector should feel like might change by then. Companies like Fisher will continue to strive to reduce weight, and those on the cutting edge will continually get flak by drive-bys in their Crown Victorias.

Well put!

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

I have yet to have a F75 or LTD fail. Very light-weight; yet, rugged.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I fully expect to be chastised for being honest.
> Yet, my motto is:
>
> "I would rather hurt you with honesty.....than
> mislead you with a lie".
>
> In furtherance; First Texas Products (Fisher) is
> in El Paso, TX. This is on the border of Mexico.
> Just across the street from FTP......in
> Mexico.......is where the CZ's are being built
> (and others). This is not a new or strange custom
> when you live on the border.
> Ironically/Strangely......the 'build' quality of
> the Mexican CZ's is superior......the best I have
> ever seen. They are very solid. I'm refering to
> the internal components. In my eyes, no shortcuts
> were taken with individual component
> compromise/quality/cost. All is solid........all
> is good. HOWEVER; the error lies in alignment
> "attention-to-detail". This is a minor....yet,
> very critical stage in the Mfr'g process. Yes, I'm
> well aware of the labor-intense (23 pot's)
> alignment procedure of the CZ's. BUT, old Fisher
> in California (Fisher Research Laboratory) had
> Mexicans building/aligning/assembling CZ's
> correctly (12" on a dime)...............until the
> last few months......when they caught wind of
> losing their jobs to El Paso; subsequently,
> attitude-attack ensued; hence, some of the last
> batches of CZ's were of 'questionable'
> performance. ((( Welcome to being human ))). A
> slap in my face.
>
> The old Fisher would .....on a
> toothpick......rotate (end-over-end) a Zinc penny
> in front of a 8" coil....at a distance of
> 11-1/2".....and the unit would be calibrated for
> "Zinc window" and for distance. I believe Mexico
> is missing this critical
> step/procedure.........and is the primary reason
> for lower performance and batch inconsistencies.
>
>
> With all of the above mentioned, , , this is why
> Dave Johnson applauds digital platforms. You can
> 'chunk' out digital circuit boards enmass.....
> w/virtually no alignment needed. CZ's are
> expensive to build.....and the profit margin is
> not good. The F75/T2 units are dirt-cheap to
> build. Most folks would be shocked if they knew
> how cheap the F75/T2 detectors cost. And this does
> not compromise build quality. BUT.....the serious
> expense incurred is in the R&D area. You could
> never imagine just how much 'thunk' time Dave
> Johnson and John Gardiner put into this platform.
> Never to be recup'd. And I know Dave's brain is a
> 24/7 mode........of which.........most of this
> time is NOT on the clock. I think John's brain is
> in the same arena. And we take this for granted;
> insomuch as to yell at them for wanting more! (((
> Starting with me )))! Gratitude is underutilized.
>
> YET, a critical minor step continues to cripple
> new CZ's. The $200 Garrett ACE-250 has the same
> air-test depth as a $1000 Mexican CZ-3D. Ouch.
>
> ......If only to be back where we were 15 years
> ago.
>
> Tom

Hmmm, after reading this, I'm glad I bought one used. I may have cried if I bought a new one with this report............see ya yardhunter

In the event of a accident, I'd much rather have my family in that Crown Vic than the Honda Fit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2010 03:55AM by Aaron.

Of course, but I'd rather be in a tank than the Crown Vic. My point was related to quality vs. weight, not automotive accident safety.

Heavy or not in my area on deep silver coins an E-TRAC smokes an f-75.Even a good tuned original CZ-3D will blow it away also! Once again that is my area. And were talking pure raw depth on silver coins.

First of all, the analogy of a Ford C.V. to a Honda was made by someone taking the F-75's side. There is truth to the analogy of weight when talking certain items...for instance, the best example would be T.V.'s, not vehicles...Before plasma and lcd when choosing a TV for quality, one of the ways to compare two equally sized, quality (on paper) and priced TV's was the weight test, and truthfully, this was told to me from Best Buy's main warehouse's head manager who was a tech too for Sony in the 80's.
He told me if the two products appear to be the same w/ the difference in weight, ALWAYS go for the heavier unit. But the fact is, the F-75 and the CZ3D are two differently made and operated AND DIFFERENT TYPES of metal detectors, so you will have different weights. When comparing it to the Minelab, well, there are plastics and other molded materials these days that are lighter yet stronger then others, and the possibility of these plastics being used in a newly designed machine are high...so unless people are going to contact the company that manufactured the housing and the company who made the other components, for both machines, you are just arguing politics, in other words, u r arguing something when you know only about 5% of the truth.
Now, I owned an F-75 and could not keep it due to all of the electrical interference in my area...which even after settling down on the power..etc...I would now have an inferior unit, which makes me sad because I was a Low Boy movie fan, and I got my F-75 right after his 2nd movie...but the fact is, that's life...thank GOD that his plan of life taught us to make decisions accordingly to our way of life. A girl in Miami might like fur, but you dont wear it to the beach, nor would that same girl in MN wear a bikini while making a snowman on her lawn. I want to use an F-75, but can't only because of the interference, but the CZ3D works like a dream here, if you can get a good one, as such does the Minelab Explorer series. The CZ and MLE's do seem like strong tanks against the F-75, but once again, with the new lighter and stronger plastics available, who knows which detectors are made of what??? Is the joke on all of us who feel the MLE's or CZ3D are the most solid?



Edited 15 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2010 12:52AM by PanMan.

Well said!
That analogy is more appropriate for the topic.