Unmasking in iron Stock coil Vs small coil

I have noticed that the size of the coil does not matter like you would think if the masking items are close to the same size...( Like Nails)..And your machien has the ability to BLEND target's audibly...

What do I mean? say you have a site thats void of larger iron and youve worked it down to just nails then a 5 inch coil offers no advantage for unmasking over a 9 inch or stock size..(in certain situations)

I notice this on the GMP/DEUS and the AT-PRO...the best blenders audibly made right now...

(SIDE NOTE: I have for awhile now had the felling in the back of my mind that GARRETT had their hands on the GMP at some point...the AT's audio is very reminescent to the GMP's...even when running them at times I get lost on which detector I have in my hand at times...Yet the GMP blends like the AT but is also faster)

If a machine is able to report multiple targets at once under the coil like the two mentioned machines I feel that we have crossed into a threshold of High Def audio...

and make no mistake about it the audio of the machine's mentioned is not analog but digital yet fore runners in todays detector audio processing..

I got hold of a FAST analog machine last week to test out for my own curiosity..its very fast its analog but it cant blend....Then I got to thinking most all of the Tone I.D. machines of analog design really do not blend audio...at least not where it seems to be the tones on top of each other at the same time yet reporting.....Ive had some rolling tone older analog machines but yet not the same as what we have now in the 21st century..the miracle of digital processing in the modern era...

Play with a DEUS keep the reactivity at 3 or lower and listen to how the tone's bleed together...speed it up on fast 4-5 reactivity and you can start to separate individual targets but the audio break's down....

XP has hit upon speed and blendability..And ability to assign where the tone breaks for iron..
Garrett has hit upon Blendability no speed and has the ability to assign where the tone break's for iron
FT has hit upon speed ..no blendibility..one machine only for tone assignment for iron...

You can see why XP is at the top of the heap for unmasking by the above statement they have taken the best of what's available and built it into one unit...

I actually see FT and Garrett equal in unmasking in alot of ways yet they do it differently...They need to a add to their design ...

But back to the small coil vs big coil.....if a site is just nails no bigger iron and you want to unmask I lean for the stock size coil for depth and see through..


Follow this...Ive actually for the first time when using this exact scenario of just surface nails in a site that if i turn the power back on the big coil I can see targets better than the small coil run high sens for the first few inches....I know theres probably some big deep iron items not yet dug that can mask surface targets if the big coil sees the deep occasional piece of large iron but the small coilcant see the deep big iron so ti should be at an advantage.. yet in my way fo thinking the small coils looks at a 3 inch nail as a large target the stock ciol does not...FINE LINES....And with the ability to blend like weve never had readjsutments must be made to put this new audio to work for us...Oh sure the easy targets are easy to get but to work on the iffys with these BLENDERS we need to revamp our thought process..Right now coil size is not as important as it once was on certain machine's....and i find that fascinating...One coil to hunt deep or unamask...

I believe right now we have Audible blending and Im seeing from Russia and even Whites the ability to graph some of this...Im thinking we are going to see some real Visual I.D. info in the future!

and wave-scope so to speak tied to the audio.right now its in its infancy on machines but I can see it really taking off one day when processed like the audio is now...seems the audio is alwasy ahead of the Visual..one day it may not be..

Keith



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2014 02:07AM by Keith Southern.

Very cool observations Keith.

Agreed on the XP machines, but how about the CTX? With the 6" coil I feel it has the ability to blend pretty well, though the speed isn't there.

Aaron

Kieth,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts about blended audio. I think a real fan base would devolop if more people could experience it and appreciate what it delivers. A user base would encourage more mfg to build on it. Tesoro actually made a unit that blended audio quite well, but it was their worst seller. The Golden Micromax. It had some issues around the tone pitch assignments which made it mostly unusable except for a select few ( I was not one of those select few for the old tone model). Then they made an adjustment to the tone pitch conductivity assignments and actually created a very nice blended unit, the new-toned Golden. Unfortuantly for us all, Tesoro fans are mostly a single tone, beep & dig bunch, and the powers that be at Tesoro are mostly single toned in their thinking as well.

When I called to discuss, it was quite plain that they couldn't understand why anybody would want tone id, and considered what they did with the new-toned Golden MicroMax a flawed and failed experiment that they were quite happy to be shut of.

First Texas has gotten their feet wet with adjustable tonal ranges and I expect them to continue to improve upon this. They have been trying to emulate analog audio so I'd expect some continued growth in this area.

Regards the visualization of the audio, that is something that has been discussed before, but I've not seen anyone take it to heart and try to do it in any meaningful way.

By the way, much of the new graphing I see today, like polar ploting and hodographing was developed and displayed on the Geotech website 9 years ago. So that would be the place to go look to see if anyone is working with meaningful audio graphing.

HH
Mike

Mike the only Audio I ever got to hear that blended from tesoro was the Euro.. and it did quite well it actually could create a third tone sound from the low and high together..

Yet at the same time there is somehting about the newer Digital blended audio that mimics analog but in pure HD...the newest audio we are starting to see is pure demensional in its sound...target shaping almost in the full report sound....that's one reason I dont like the reactivity on the DEUS really past 2 it starts to loose the nuances....I like to massage

Yes Im afraid tesoro is stuck in a time warp in some ways...

they would have a very good unit in the Tejon by just adding low tone high tone break adjusted by disc setting....

I think it will take awhile for the graphics to catch up with the audio.....But who knows look how far the phone went in the last 4 years!!!!

thanks for the input..

Aaron..

Yes the CTX is very blendy and has no speed....Good picture painter audibly...


As audio reporting comes into its own we may really have to rethink our current thought process...instead of speed and separaration....we may actually evolve into full continous audio report under the coil and link it into a type of display maybe like a heat sink graph may look..

would not not be cool to see the dirt as say different shades of red accoprding to mineral and the iron as blue and the non ferrous as yellow as the coil moves...maybe even see hotrocks as black...

exciting times lie ahead...

Keith

Darn it Keith!

Here I was just getting used to my image of you as the super sonar operator of the metal detecting world and you want to go off and become a radar operator - a "scope dope"!

Wait till XP add an accelerometer to the search head electronics and integrate coil movement data with the electronic signature - "voila!" Pictures of targets.

lytle78 - exacting statement.

I'm 67 – as a young guy I flew airplanes in the Air Force – and at various times did a lot of shooting, often – stupidly - without ear protection. My tinnitus and hearing loss are probably no worse than average, which is to say quite noticeable. I need to get myself down to Costco and get a hearing test and probably see about getting fitted with some assists so my wife can stop complaining about me not being able hear her.

I just got a Deus and one of the features of this detector (and some other ones like the V3i) is that you can select the audio frequency for various tones. I read a post on one of the Deus forums from a guy who's an audiologist and was explaining how to match your hearing test results to the settings on the Deus to ensure that you can actually hear the tones that are significant by choosing the correct frequency for those tones to fall at. One feature of the Deus is that, of course, the headsets are part of the system. How cool it would be if the detector could in fact give you a hearing test when you set it up so that you would only choose tones that you could actually hear. It would be a little program that ran and on-screen said "XX" Hertz - and if you heard it you press yes and if you can't hear it you press no and you move on through the frequencies. You could choose which of those frequencies you could hear to assign to which tones as part of the same process.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

great read Keith I think the AT Gold was designed around the smaller coil. I know it's a gold hunter but I have dug bullets down to 13 inches in Virgina soil. I am from Calif and have not done much hunting hear this time of year do to the heat. But I did my a Nell Hunter coil and it's a bit to heavy for me so I can't go out for a long time and hunt. You never mentioned the G2 and the newer coil they came out with. That is a fast machine and if they added boost mode then would that be a game changer.

You have to wonder if the designers are thinking the same way you are and just don't tell us so they won't hurt sales on their other machines. It is about time we see some new machines and I don't think the F19 is going to set our feet on fire...I won't buy a new machine till I see something new that has been designed for the near future. I can't buy a new machine every few years. I want to get one that will be around for at least seven years and a leader in what it does. Unmasking seems to be the way to go. I think if you can unmask you will get better depth. I like the AT and its all metal great design how did that work in your test...

LowBoy

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2014 03:39PM by Lawrenzo.

This is exactly why I loved my etrac and now the CTX and of coarse the Deus

they have "see thru" ability/blendability

that is to say

many machines can pick targets out of iron when co-located among the iron when next to a piece or nail/etc.

but the etrac and ctx, and Deus (maybe others --- I believe the old sov. and the ex-cals) have the ability to see rgt thru the iron and detect a good target even if the iron object is directly on top of the good target

most machines can't do that

I pulled a silver dime with my CTX a few days ago with the stock coil from 7 inches down with a large square nail directly on top of it at only 3 inches --- that's 4 inches beyond the depth of the nail that the ctx saw the dime and reported it even with the nail directly on top of it at a shallower depth

most machines would just see the nail and you'd never even get a blip of the good target

I did the same thing last spring with the Deus - I showed the picture here with the square nail and silver roosy dime in the same hole

I like how the Deus "averages" things in iron both in #s and in tones

with a lot of iron around -- a silver or large copper can sound off mid tone and read in the 60s or 70s when it should sound off high tone and read in the 80s & 90s depending on size :-)

MichiganRelicHunter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> with a lot of iron around -- a silver or large
> copper can sound off mid tone and read in the 60s
> or 70s when it should sound off high tone and read
> in the 80s & 90s depending on size :-)

I just had something like this happen recently, in lots of nails, using the GM Power and NEL 5" coil. 3 swing directions, the target gave a mid tone, the last swing direction gave a high tone. I went around the target again before digging and same results. Target was a Mercury.

Ron

Im not turning my back on Sonic audio Lytle ..Quite from it actually right now we have more audio language to intrepret than ever before in these new machines...IF WE LISTEN...

But at the same time I really think that new avenues can and will be cut into the Visual I.D....how will it be done ????Yuor guess is aas good as mine....but I would like to see some sort of interface to allow what we hear to be Visually seen ...maybe by wearing some glasses???Who Know's...

Hey Lawrenzo I did nto mentiont he G2 although a great machine I was trying to stay on target of the post with the Idea that the audio systems have gained so much ground in the last decade that the coils although imprortant for sure are not as critical for size choice in unmasking...Very unique..the G2 relies on tight coils and speed and does it very very well as does the T2 etc...Just delving into the way GOOD audio can do so much to platfrom..

Keith

Nice info Keith

Corey



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2014 04:03AM by docbars.