How widely were gold coins dispersed in the US

BigSkyGuy Wrote:
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> Tom_in_CA, your observations make perfect sense ba
> sed on my research. As I mentioned in my post, Cal
> ifornia has always had a love for hard currency. I
> n 1862 when most of the rest of the country was re
> signed to the fact that greenbacks would be “money
> ” from then on, California absolutely refused to a
> ccept paper money of any kind, even the government
> sanctioned greenback. California passed a law that
> state taxes must be paid in gold or silver coins.
> In June 1862 the law was challenged in court on th
> e grounds that the policy conflicted with the Fede
> ral law which stated that the greenback was “a leg
> al tender in payment of all debts public and priva
> te”. The California Supreme Court ruled that a tax
> is not a debt and the tax policy was upheld. Contr
> acts in California had special clauses which speci
> fied that the sum of money referred to in the cont
> ract was to be paid in specie. The merchants of Sa
> n Francisco met with the aim to prevent debtors fr
> om attempting to use the new greenbacks to settle
> their debts. The group agreed “not to receive or p
> ay out legal-tender notes at any but the market va
> lue, gold being adhered to as the standard.” Firms
> that refused to follow the agreement were listed i
> n a black book and were required to pay for their
> future purchases in gold. Customers who tried to p
> ay their store accounts using greenbacks were publ
> icly named, ridiculed and shamed in the newspapers
> as crooks trying to rip off the merchants using de
> preciated greenbacks. The value of the greenback d
> ropped to as low as 39 cents in gold (in 1864), so
> paying off a debt in paper money would save the de
> btor a considerable amount at the expense of the c
> reditor.
>
> The difference in attitude between the East and th
> e Pacific Coast towards gold was stark. This was e
> vident in the way the newspapers reported the rela
> tive value between gold and paper money. In Califo
> rnia, the greenback was considered to be a commodi
> ty to be purchased with gold (i.e. money), and was
> reported in the newspapers as the amount of gold d
> ollars required to purchase $1 dollar in paper (i.
> e. 39 cents in gold per $1 greenback), but in the
> East gold was the commodity and the greenback was
> the money (as today), and was reported as the amou
> nt of greenbacks required to purchase $1 gold doll
> ar. In the late 1860s, during the suspension of sp
> ecie payments time period (Greenback Era), the gov
> ernment decided it was a convenient time to count
> the amount of specie present in the country. The w
> ay that they did this was to estimate that 25,000,
> 000 in specie was present on the Pacific Coast and
> the rest was in US Treasury vaults. Apparently, so
> little gold was circulating in the east that it wa
> s not worth counting. The main use of gold in the
> East at this time was by merchants who traded inte
> rnationally. Customs duties had to be paid in gold
> as well as purchases of goods overseas.
> Even after the resumption of specie payments in Ja
> nuary 1879 gold coins were not popular in the East
> . During the leadup to resumption, the Government,
> businessmen, and bankers were concerned that there
> would not be enough gold available to meet the dem
> and by the public for gold coins. The Treasury Dep
> artment sold bonds in Europe to build up the gold
> coin reserve. The reserve coin fund was at $133,50
> 8,804.50 on the day that specie resumption began i
> n New York on January 1st. The Secretary of the Tr
> easury reported “Actual resumption commenced at th
> e time fixed by law, without any material demand f
> or coin and without disturbance to public or priva
> te business”. “The total amount of United States n
> otes presented for redemption, from January 1 to N
> ovember 1, 1879, was $11,256,678”. People in the E
> ast had become accustomed to thinking of greenback
> s as money and did not see the need for gold coins
> . Gold coins were considered heavy, bulky and cumb
> ersome. A Montana newspaper reported in 1902 that
> a local businessman had just returned from New Yor
> k City and he reported that gold is so seldom used
> there that merchants did not trust themselves to d
> istinguish genuine coins from counterfeit and refu
> sed to accept them at all.
>
> Gold coins in the East were, of course used during
> what I call the "Resumption Era" (1879-1916), but
> rarely. Most gold coin demand in the East was for
> Christmas Gifts. Special envelopes or gift boxes w
> ere made for $5 or $2.50 gold pieces to present to
> the recipient. The Mint was well aware of this tre
> nd and prepared each year for the Christmas rush.
> Large companies would often present Christmas gift
> s in the form of a gold piece to each of their emp
> loyees (instead of a turkey I guess?). Gold coins
> were also used in the east for prizes at picnics (
> oldest couple, cutest baby, largest family, winner
> s of the fat man's race, etc.), company promotions
> , and contests. One 1900 newspaper article adverti
> sed that a $10 gold piece would be presented to 10
> children who wrote the most interesting letters de
> scribing "the good that has been done them by Grap
> e-Nuts food".
>
> During resumption, gold coin usage did occur in ot
> her western areas besides the west Coast (Montana,
> Idaho, Colorado, the Dakotas, Wyoming, etc.). Once
> the railroads reached the western states (~1880s)
> it became more cost effective to ship coins from t
> he nearest Mint to most larger towns. Prior to the
> 1920s it was common for businesses to pay their em
> ployees directly (not by check). Every two weeks o
> r whatever timeframe, they would receive a pay env
> elope containing their wages. In the west, especia
> lly mining companies, would pay their employees us
> ing gold and silver coins. In 1964 retired GE Pres
> ident Zay Jeffries reminisced about the good old d
> ays (~1913);
>
> After a summer's work in a gold recovery mill n
> ear Deadwood, South Dakota, I collected my savings
> . It was in coins-five twenty-dollar gold pieces,
> one ten-dollar and one five-dollar gold piece plus
> enough silver, mostly one-dollar pieces, to make a
> total weight of about three-quarters of a pound.[/
> i]
>
> Zay’s experience was not unique, accounts of gold
> pieces being stolen, mistaken for coins of lesser
> value, or counterfeited in Western papers during t
> his time are numerous. If gold coins were not in c
> irculation why would they be counterfeited, stolen
> , or mistaken for other coins? Accounts of $5 gold
> pieces being spent as nickels, and $2.50 pieces be
> ing spent as dimes or pennies were numerous.
> Based on all of this (everyone still awake?), I wo
> uld rank the best places (in order) as follows:
>
> 1. West Coast (1850-1916)
> 2. West (1847-1861, 1879-1916)
> 3. East and South (1847-1861) and perhaps Foreign
> gold coins during the colonial era through 1836. P
> rior to 1837, US gold coins did not circulate beca
> use the gold they contained was worth more than th
> e face value, so they were melted down.
>
> I am currently compiling a database of gold coin f
> inds by detectorists. The information I would like
> is;
>
> 1. Date and denomination of coin
> 2. Type of site (house site, park, beach, military
> site, depot, etc.) for each coin
> 3. State where found (for each coin)
>
> Tom_in_CA or any others who have been fortunate en
> ough to make such a find (or finds) if you could s
> ubmit your info it would be greatly appreciated. C
> urrently, all of the data I have are from metal de
> tector manufacturer websites, treasure mags, and f
> orum posts. Once I have your data I will add it to
> my database and post the results to this thread.
>
> Thank you
>
> Kent

Kent, this is extremely well written. When I first started reading it, I thought "someone's just going to throw out some wild notions and theories". But I love how you draw actual historical citations into the evidences you propose! Very good data to support the theories as to the east / west differences! This is one of the good inputs on this thread, on the topic. Thanx for taking the time to type it out. You should submit it to Western/Eastern treasure magazine. I would help you co-write it if you want to partner on that. A study on the demographics/potentials to find a gold coins, based on geography. And pull into it the good stuff on this thread re.: military , for instance.

As a further support for your input: It is a known fact that the most likely places to find silver dollars (at least in the early days of md'ing) was in the silver producing states like Montana, Idaho, etc... Because if I'm not mistaken, those states resisted paper dollars, and tried to pass laws to push for the use of silver dollars, rather than paper. Because since silver was a major economic product, the government wanted to promote the silver mining industry. Hence all the way up till 1964, it was possible to find silver dollars in circulation in those silver mining states. Thus the earliest guys there to get into metal detecting (1960s and '70s) would routinely find silver dollars, in any sand boxes (for example) that predated 1964. Some guys had astounding counts of 50+ silver dollars . Granted, they were all boring peace dollars and worn-down Morgans, haha.

This seems to bear out your own hypothesis about gold coins distribution and usage. Very interesting.

I know I posted this before, but will repeat here again: Another reason why I think gold coins are found out west with more frequency, is:

All the migration was East TO West, right ? Ie.: all the earliest settlements in the USA started on the east coast. Even up to WWII, the population east of the Mississippi had always been higher than the population to the west of the Mississippi. And when you think of the concept of packing up your life on the east coast, to prepare to take a wagon (or steamer ship "around the horn") to California, then ....... GO FIGURE: Cargo space would be at a premium. Eg.: What's lighter: 500 large cents, or a single $5 gold piece ? Naturally someone embarking on the journey (in an era before ATMs, western union, etc...) would bring their account in the form of the $5. Not 500 LC's (we rarely find LCs here, doh!).

This theory of mine would hold true if the gold coins we find were evident at emigrant stopping spots, stage stops, etc... And yes: A few of the 15 I've found DO INDEED bear this out. However, I have to admit that others here hold no rhyme or reason. Eg.: found at old-town urban demolition sites, the beach after storms, 1 at a park, etc....

Kent......... I will gladly contribute to your efforts:

1. 1843 "O" $2.50 Quarter Eagle ((( Lost approx on Dec. 17, 1849 )))
2. Military (3rd Seminole Indian War site)
3. Central Florida

This is the only gold coin I have ever found (in my 47 years of detecting)...... of which nearly all of my detecting is Eastern United States. Archaeological Community research dictates this particular coin belonged to Gen. George G. Meade.....at time of loss (97% probability).

1. 1885 $5.00 Half Eagle
2. Farm Field. According to an old map, it appears to have always been farmed land. Dug approximately 150 yards from 1800's built stone farm house.
3. SE Pennsylvania

This coin has a micro rippled surface. Possibly caused by heat from a fire. Or maybe its resting area was struck by lightning, causing brief amount of high heat.
Found with a 1021 CZ3d w/10.5" coil. Tom D. calibrated to perfection. 12.2" on a clad dime w/ 8" coil.
Depth of dug coin, 6".
Clay soil mixed with small bits of stone. Until recently, land was plowed.

Tom_in_CA

Your theory about travelers taking along coin makes some sense. I copied this from the Daily Alta California, Volume 84, Number 136, 16 May 1891 regarding the Donner Party.

DONNER PARTY RELICS.

Discovery of Money Buried by Some

of the Ill-Fated Pioneers.

Two Prospectors Unearth Many

Old Silver Coins.

Truckee, May 15th.— Truckee is feverish with excitement over the discovery of a portion of the treasure buried by the Dormer party in 1846 and 1847. There is not the slightest room for doubting the authenticity of the find or the identity of the money. McGlashan's history of the Donner party in speaking of the second relief party, says: "Reed's party encamped the first night near the upper end of Donner Lake. They had scarcely traveled three miles. Upon starting from Graves' cabin Mrs. Graves had taken with her a considerable amount of money. This money, McCuthen says, had been ingeniously concealed in auger holes bored in cleats nailed to tbe bed of the wagon. These cleats, W. C. Graves says, were ostensibly placed in the wagon-bed to support a table carried in the back part of the wagon. On the under side of these cleats, however, were the augur holes, carefully filled with coin. The sum is variously stated at from three to five hundred dollars. At the camping ground, near the upper end ot Dormer Lake, one of the relief party jokingly proposed to another to play a game of euchre to see who should have Mrs. Graves' money. The next morning Mrs. Graves remained when the party started, and concealed her money. All that is known is that she buried it behind a large rock on the north side of Dormer Lake, and, so far as is known, this money has never been recovered, but still lies hidden where it was placed by Mrs. Graves." The history proceeds to recount the death of Mrs. Graves from cold and starvation three days afterwards. She buried the money on the morning of March 3, 1847, and it was found yesterday afternoon by Edward Reynolds. Stewart McKay employed Amos Lane, keeper of a livery stable, to take him to the upper end of Donner Lake yesterday afternoon. A commercial traveler by the name of Huntsman went as far as Johnson's resort with them and then took a boat and went out on the lake fishing. This left an empty seat in the wagon at starting, and Lane asked his friend Reynolds to go along. Reynolds is a stranger in Truckee, having come from Sierra Valley last Tuesday. He is a miner and instead of going fishing he went up on the sidehill to look for quartz. Meantime Lane and McKay had driven on toward the head of the lake. Reynolds' attention was accidentally called to some dark looking pieces of money lying in plain sight on the top of the ground. Stooping down he picked up ten ancient looking dollars, and upon scratching slightly in the earth uncovered a large quantity of silver. Not knowing the nature or extent of the deposit he prudently covered it up and when Lane returned reported that he had found a buried treasure and offered to take Lane in with him. It was resolved to drive back to Truckee with McKay and the drummer without disclosing the secret and return after dark and dig up the money. Their anxiety finally overcame their discretion, however, and about 3 o'clock they started back to get the plant, taking with them a pick, shovel and two barley sacks to hold tne coin. The found silver scattered over quite a surface of ground, and by the side of a stone in the place where Reynolds had uncovered the main deposit they found a hat full of coins. Darkness coming on, they returned to town, and on examining the money closely, it was all found to be ancient and all more or less blackened, stained or oxidized, according to the position in which it was found. Suspecting that they had found some of the Donner party money, they took Stewart McKay and C. F. McGlashan into the secret. They had found $146 in silver and no piece was older than 1845. This morning they returned to the lake, taking Stewart McKay, C. F. McGlashan and Mrs. Nora McGlashan along as witnesses and experts. In one hour the party found $9, and several pieces were firmly embedded in the earth while others lay loosely on the surface. A large pine tree had been felled directly across the original plant, and it is evident that when the saw -logs made from the tree were snaked away they tore up the ground and carried the money along with them for a number of feet. Logs and wood have been cut all around the spot, and probably a thousand men have passed over the money since the days when the railroad was built. The place is in plain sight from the wagon road, about four hundred feet from the margin of the central part of the lake, opposite the fishing resort of Johnson. When it was learned that the money was widely scattered, and that it would take days, and perhaps weeks, to find it all, Messrs. Lane and Reynolds erected a tent over the spot and had it enclosed with a fence. Guards are stationed on the ground to protect the buried treasure it still contains. Some authorities place the amount of money buried by the Donner party at $10,000, and searching parties are already being organized to make a systematic hunt for the long hidden coin. From present indications the hills on the north side of Dormer Lake will be covered with treasure-hunters to-morrow. Reynolds and Lane will have the money on exhibition at their tent while continuing their part of the search. The money they found would delight the heart of a numismatist. There are old antiquated coins of all dates prior to 1845, and of the most obsolete and forgotten markings — coins from France, Spain, Bolivia, Argentine Republic, and a number of other foreign countries besides a very rare collection of American pieces are included in the treasure. As relics ot the Donner party the find is very valuable, $100 having been offered for one of the pieces. A Truckee hotelkeeper offered $10 a day to have the coins placed on exhibition at his hotel. No arrangement will be made regarding the disposition of the money until it is known how much can be found.

Thank you Tom and Ozzie for your data!

Kent

BigSkyGuy Wrote:
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>
> Thank you Tom and Ozzie for your data!
>
> Kent

Kent, were you wanting a recap of all 15 of mine too ? That's going to be lengthy, but ... will type it out if you want. Do you want it emailed? Or typed out here? And locations some were found at will be a bit ... uh .. .vague. Ie.: I don't want to reveal my hunting sites. A few, yes I can. Like beach storm erosion ones would do no one any good to "rush out to the same spot". Since, of course, they sand back in . And it's only every 30 or 40 yrs. anyone particular spot erodes down to bedrock again But for the land spot ones, I'd have to be rather generic in location description. Eg.: Stage stop or emigrant stop spot, or oldtown sidewalk demolition tearout, etc...

And if you're compiling it all formally, I highly suggest submitting it to Western and Eastern magazine (or some such place to be published in paper-print). Draw in your own data studies, along with what Nasa Tom wrote earlier in this thread, and along with other's theories. I would be happy to help edit, review, etc.... The contributions of this thread, and now with your inputs, are a great starting point.

I know this debate has come up on other forums too. And on-the-surface, it has made little sense as to why they're not found equally on both coasts. Because, after all PHILADELPHIA mint was churning them out in equal or sometimes greater #'s than west coast (CC and S) mints. Thus why not lost in equal #'s on both coasts ?

A further study would be to analyze the mint marks of those found out west. Are they S's predominantly ? What percentage are phllies or dahlonega, or Orleans, etc.... ? That would lend credence to my cargo-weight theory of consolidated assets for months-long wagon trek. (The lack of LC's out west seems bear this out too, haha) . If you scroll back on T'net banner, you can go back for years and years. Click on any gold coin, and you would immediately know mint, date, and most likely the finder has indicated what state he is from. Then put all that data on a spread sheet, and trends might start to come into focus. I know I've seen a few gold coins from east coast states on banner there. But have never paid much attention to west vs east coast when seeing a gold coin make banner.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2017 09:13PM by Tom_in_CA.

Tom,

Please submit whatever you feel comfortable with either here or by PM. Feel free to leave out site types for some if you need to. There are plenty of holes in the data I have. Currently I have 270 coins in the database, but 104 of them are from Bylund's book on Camp Floyd, which kind of skews the data set. I have included all of the banner finds. The question of mint marks is another piece of the puzzle for sure.

Kent

BigSkyGuy Wrote:
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104 of them are from Bylun
> d's book on Camp Floyd, which kind of skews the da
> ta set....


oh boy, that REALLY skews the data That's nearly half of your #'s from a single location. But barring that one anomaly, I'm sure they're still mostly found in western states. Also: for this study, I would disclude 1) caches and 2) those found mounted in jewelry (bezzles, etc...)

The reason for discluding caches is that the # found in a single spot does not represent fumble-fingers distribution/usage likeliness for a study like this. And the reason for discluding jewelry, is that there is no way to to know if that is a period loss (from the time/era when gold coins were still being used as legal tender).

I will post the lineage of my 15 here within a day or so, when I get time.

In no particular order: (all found in CA)

1) 1849 D $5 : Emigrant route stopping/rest stop, of one of the routes that led into CA during the gold rush era.

2) 1829 British gold coin (the equivalent of our USA $5) : Emigrant route stopping/rest stop of same incoming route as #1

3) 1846 O $5 : At stopping spot on the old El Camino Reale . Spot also was the focus of concurrent community activity. So it's hard to say which exact reason for this coin's presence at this spot.

4) 1880 S $20 : At a stage stop that connected the coastal communities to in-land mining region.

5) 1873 S $20 : After beach erosion, at Seaside/Monterey area. (thus presumably recreational beach-goer-loss?)

6) 1847 P $10 : A location where the USA stationed some military units during the late Mexican war to early USA territory period of CA . Ie.: at the advent of CA statehood, the military were said to be bivouacked here for a year or so.

7) 1835 P $5 : Same place as #6

8) 1862 S $10 : A defunct resort that had operated from the 1860s to the turn-of-century-ish. (hence a recreational-goer loss ?)

9) 1914 P $2.50 : After beach erosion at Marina to Seaside CA area (thus presumably recreational beach goer loss)

10) 1852 $1.00 . Mint mark obscured d/t holed. But pretty sure it's a P. At a park , fronting a cross-country travel route RR station. Park dated to the 1883-ish. Hence could be a traveler loss (d/t proximity to the RR). Or could be a park-goer recreational loss ? I even toyed with the idea this was a modern earing loss, but have relented and kept it in the "coin" category, not jewelry category, d/t the age of the park.

11) 1856 to 1889 style $1.00: details obliterated d/t turned into a period style "love token". Found at beach in Monterey, after storm erosion. Hence strictly recreational beach-goer loss.

12) 1899 S $5.00 : At a sports arena grandstands horse-track race site demolition. Bleachers for the horse/rodeo track site dated to the 1920s. But an earlier seating stands existed as far back as turn-of-century-ish. Thus no doubt recreational loss (persons betting on horses ? )

13) 1886 S $5.00 : A building demolition tearout near an old "china-town" district of a coastal CA town.

14) $1886 S $5.00 : Beach erosion Monterey/Seaside area. Thus probable beach-goer recreational loss.

15) $1886 S $5.00 : Oldtown commercial downtown district sidewalk tearout project in Salinas, CA. Thus no doubt a typical retail/fumble fingers loss. Not necessarily traveler or military related.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2017 05:24AM by Tom_in_CA.

Tom_in_CA Wrote:
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> The reason for discluding caches is that the # fou
> nd in a single spot does not represent fumble-fing
> ers distribution/usage likeliness for a study like
> this.

Great info here guys!!

Tom, not including large caches makes sense to me. I immediately thought of MT's gold coins found in SF. I think some feel they may have been a stash from folks fleeing the '06 quake.
And then, of course, there are all those gold coins found in coffee cans that are believed to come from the SF Mint!

Thank you much Tom! I will add these in. Also, I came to the same conclusions that you did when compiling the database. No jewelry and no caches. Gold coin jewelry was a fad in the 1950s.

How widely were gold coins dispersed in the US?

We can take a guess ... we know the mintage totals for gold coins. Now we just need to make a series of assumptions, any of which are not likely to be accurate.

We'll assume some things:

With the recall of gold coins older than 1834 (the value of the coin exceeded the face value, the mint recalled gold coins melting down coins older than 1834), there weren't many left in circulation. Some prior to 1834 were dropped to be sure, but they'd be a rare find indeed.

After 1880, the use of gold coins was minimal (replaced by federal currency), especially in the U.S. east (still some used in the west). After 1880, gold coins were mostly just traded by banks internationally (despite large numbers being minted in the U.S.). Most of those gold coins minted ended up in foreign banks after 1900, never to be returned to the U.S.

So, we'll focus on coins minted from 1835 to 1880, where gold coins were widely circulated. Calculating the number in circulation per year, and assuming a 2.5% loss rate per year (modern quarters have a similar loss rate, but the percentage was an estimate by a 'expert' in the field of gold coins, so I'll use it), multiplied by the coin's number of years in production, gives an approx. number of coins lost for all causes (not returned to the mint).

If we assume that 20% of the total attrition per year was due to gold coins lost to the ground (as opposed lost at sea, lost in a house, lost overseas, burned-up or destroyed accidentally), we'd have the approx. number of gold coins lost in the ground.


The chart of gold coins lost in the ground would look like this:



Some gold coin varieties were minted after the popular use of gold for trade declined and have been given zero numbers (for circulation and for numbers lost). Note: The actual value of the numbers is less important (due the assumptions listed above) than the relative values. Meaning, the longer the bar on the graph, the more likely that particular gold coin is going to be recovered by someone with a metal detector.

There is probably a better chance of finding gold coins in the ground in the western states, since they stayed in circulation a bit longer (but who knows for sure). Since I'm speculating, the soil may also be less conducive to bioturbation (earthworms) in the west, which implies the drier and hotter climate of the west may have kept the gold that was dropped nearer the surface for easier detection.

johnnyanglo

Johnnyanglo, does your attrition rate account for those that were never lost in the first place? (ie.: sitting in collections around the world). Or those that were melted down ? Something in your assumptions looks skewed and over-optimistic. I can't put my finger on it.

And you say:

" ..... I'm speculating, the soil may also be less conducive to bioturbation (earthworms) in the west, which implies the drier and hotter climate of the west may have kept the gold that was dropped nearer the surface for easier detection."

This can't possibly have any bearing on the matter. Because figure: Old coins are found on the east coast ALL THE TIME. While it's true that jungle-like terra-firma conditions (lush green landscape) does tend to lend old coins deeper, yet .... a quick look at show & tell finds forums show that east coast hunters routinely find LCs, colonial coppers, seateds, etc.... Hence I don't see any merit to depth in explaining the disparities.

I can't elaborate on US gold found in military camps/fort sites, or, in any capacity relating to a military attribute in any form as we don't have that sort of thing here in Michigan except for a handful of sites that are so off limits that you can't even get within 2 miles of them with a detector unless you want to go to jail but in my 35 yrs of digging now = I've been lucky enough to have found 2 gold pieces (shown in pics below).

The 1st one = 1909 $5 Indian was found in a yard back in 2004/05 on a block of huge very well kept ornate victorian era homes that were built by many involved in the lumber industry during the 1880s/90s. It was found with the old TV on a stick (Garrett 2500 GTI) along a cobblestone walkway in the backyard approx. 5" deep and rang up in the nickel range tone wise/ID

The 2nd one = 1853 $1 Gold was found with the Deus 3 yrs ago in a ghost town that stood from 1840 until the mid 1940s that I've been hunting for a good 6 yrs now and have pulled in the realm of +/- 100 coins and tokens/store cards out of over the yrs anywhere from the 1830s to 1940s. The town/site had a Gen store, livery, blacksmith shop, PO, town hall, cabinet makers shop, stagestop and a sprinkle of houses here/there. It was a low/mid tone scratchy and reading 30s/40s on the ID mixed in with iron/nails - the entire site is nothing but non stop machine gun iron except the extreme fringes and very hard to hunt.

I speculate the $5 was a drop by one of the early homeowners at some point and the $1 was worn on a necklace or such and fell off (pure speculation though). I sold the $5 Indian about 8 yrs ago during the recession along with all my junk silver as times were tough and I had to put food on the table but I still have the $1 with hopes to find another out there this fall/after crops come out and I'll be trying with the Deus and HF elliptical this time

Hey Tom!! Kind remarks!!

And I can tell even though you're in the heartland for them you still show's that your skill level has obtained you more than the normal guy I'm sure...

Yes Location Location Location...and if you're lucky enough to be in the locale for a certain Prize the skillset as you show can take advantage of the situation...

I'm still in Awe of your Success!!

Kudos to you !!

One day I'm coming west to hunt.......... I HAVE TO!!

Would love to meet some of you guy's I've come to know on the forum!

Hey Wayne !!Man Nice Duo you have there as well!!MAn I really Love those 5 dollar Indian's..Just beautiful!!!Something about the way the details Pop on them..

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2017 02:23AM by Keith Southern.

Love this thread...a lot of thorough research and well thought out theories.

Johnny, one problem I see in your numbers is that the mintage to actual circulation ratio did not correlate equally between denominations

Based strictly on the mintages, the $20 double eagle should be the gold denomination found most often. In actuality, it's the denomination found least often. .

Half eagles and quarter eagles circulated with the general public significantly more than eagles and especially double eagles which were more likely to be "bank to bank" transactions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2017 04:36AM by marcomo.

Yes a Very good thread and a very good motivator that causes salivation!!!

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Keith Southern Wrote:
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> Yes a Very good thread and a very good motivator t
> hat causes salivation!!!
>
> Keith


LoL

You'll find one Keith -- probably blow us all away with an early one of those Dahlonega mints from down there worth a small fortune when you do

Kent....... a couple things worthy of mention:

1). The smaller the gold coin....... the lower the conductivity. Hence/subsequently, less likely to be 'dug'. ((( Who wants to dig 'foil'..... to find a U.S. $1 gold coin. )))

2). The smaller the gold coin......... the less the detection range (depth).


This data can 'skew' end-resultant.

As detectorists......... we would be stunned to know just how many U.S. $1 gold coins were lost. And...... Their average 'max' detection depth/range....... with most detectors........... is about 6".
It is safe to say: 'Most' of them are well beyond 6" deep.
Out West......... where there is less rain & less organic soil (in many areas)...... making target depth more ascertainable ............... hence; the probabilities/statistics/ratios are bound to be different.

I am just about ready to post the results of my database. Thank you to all who contributed. Tom, I will discuss the size issue that you bring up. Good point. I have some data on gold coin loss rate vs size that you all might find interesting.

I also will include population data (then and now). Despite less circulation of gold coins in the East, the population was higher back east and there were presumably more total coins lost. There are probably also more people using detectors to find gold coins in the East today. I am currently compiling population stats. I may report results on a per capita basis as well as overall percentages by region, denomination, era (antebellum, greenback, or resumption), mint, and site type.

Kent

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> 1). The smaller the gold coin....... the lower the
> conductivity. Hence/subsequently, less likely to b
> e 'dug'. ((( Who wants to dig 'foil'..... to find
> a U.S. $1 gold coin. )))
>
> 2). The smaller the gold coin......... the less th
> e detection range (depth).
>
>
> This data can 'skew' end-resultant.
>

Nasa Tom, the above 2 facts would only play into the topic, under the following conditions:

Reply to # 1) Yes. But only if persons were doing a bit of cherry picking. Ie.: passing foil or tab beaver tails, etc... Which is to be expected, perhaps, when turf hunting for silver and copper coins (ie.: hunting junky parks). However, this does NOT come into play when hunters have entered into a relicky dig-all mindset (passing only iron). CW hunters , for example, pass only iron (heck, sometimes they even strip-mine the iron too!) . And those working cellar holes typically grasp for anything conductive and are NOT discriminating (except iron) in the slightest. Furroughed fields, ghost towns, old-town urban demolition, beach storm erosion, etc... are all forms of relicky mindset locations where your #1 point becomes a non-issue.

Reply to #2) Yes, of course a $5, or a $10, etc... poses a bigger target. Hence you're going to deeper on the bigger targets as opposed to the smaller ones. Also , subconsciously, if there's ample targets to choose from (virgin sites) you will find yourself subconsciously favoring the better sounding targets (rather than whispy whispers). *HOWEVER* : I can think of sites where my gold coins have come from, that we DO INDEED get all the depth we need. Ie.: Depth is a non-issue. Perhaps for stratified turf (where the older targets are deeper), then yes, logically the larger targets are "favored" at depth. And then yes, your point #2 stands merit. But at a lot of ghost-townsy sites, people are indeed finding small period targets too (as they grasp for everything they can hear). Or beach storm erosion, where mother nature can lend everything to zones within the top 5" (and no deeper). Or sidewalk demolition tearouts, etc....

In all such places where "depth is not an issue", you will find that $5 is still the most commonly found denomination. And I do not think it's that "people can't reach them d/t depth" or "people are disc'ing too high. Because they do indeed reach small period lead , and do indeed grasp for everything down to foil.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2017 10:27PM by Tom_in_CA.

Tom.......... I know of many relic hunters ....here in Florida. Even at that......... they are still 'cherry-picker' relic hunters. Only one of them will dig 'foil'......... and only if they see me digging foil targets. Seems to me.............. only the members of this forum.... are as willing to dig 'foil' conductivity targets.

I know where there are quite a few U.S. $1.00 (mostly Type-1's) gold coins............ but I can not reach their natural resting depths with any unit.

Absolutely fascinating thread, this continues to be.

Kent, can't wait to see your post regarding your database...

Steve

NASA-Tom and other have brought up the issue of coin size, which affects our ability to detect small items such as gold dollars. However, as also pointed out, small items tend to be lost more easily and are less likely to be noticed right away after being lost. The large number of gold dollars found at Camp Floyd (58) seems to bear this out. The Bylund book provides a good sample of the gold coins that were lost (actually the gold dollars are likely under-represented due to their small size, masking, etc.), but we do not know what the distribution of coins were that the soldiers were issued. The payroll would have been provided in a manner to maximize the convenience of large denominations when counting but at the same time have enough small denominations to make change. Assuming that there was a fairly standard formula for doing this, Army payrolls during this time period may have had similar distributions.

A convenient “time capsule” of an Army payroll for this time period (May 1857) was provided by the recovery in 1963-64 of a nearly complete payroll consisting of $23,000 in gold near the Indian River inlet on the east Florida Coast. The payroll had just been withdrawn from the Charleston, SC Subtreasury by Paymaster Major Jeremiah Y. Dashiel when it was lost in transit from the schooner Pongasset to the shore. The major’s small boat was upset by a rough sea near the outer breakers. All six persons on the boat, including Major Dashiel were rescued, but the leather pouch containing the payroll for nearby Fort Capron was lost. At the time it was thought that the payroll would never be recovered. However, in the Spring of 1963 two young men discovered the gold coins from the payroll scattered over the top of a reef while diving for crawfish. A salvage operation was soon set up, resulting in the recovery of 3,264 gold and silver coins with a face value of $23,025.50. A complete breakdown of the number and denominations of coins from the recovery was provided by the state of Florida. I have provided a comparison of the Ft Capron payroll to the coins recovered at Camp Floyd.

Graph

Clearly, the percentage of gold coins lost at Camp Floyd that consisted of dollars (55.8%) was far greater than for the Fort Capron payroll (15.6%). The Ft Capron payroll contained the highest percentage of half Eagles (28.5%) followed closely by quarter Eagles (24.1%). The true disparity is probably even greater due to the difficulty in finding gold dollars with a metal detector compared to other gold coins. I hope you all find this interesting. More to follow.

Kent

Clausen, C.J. 1968. The Fort Pierce American Gold Find. The Florida Historical Quarterly, v. 47, p. 51-58.
Bylund. D.A. 2009. In Search of Johnson’s Army. Old Camp Floyd & West Creek as Seen Through the Eyes of a Relic Hunter. iUniverse Inc. NY Bloomington, IN.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2017 03:51AM by BigSkyGuy.

Kent............... It's more than just "find this interesting"........................ rather....................... it's PRICELESS!

Kent your research is beyond amazing!!! Keep this info flowing!!

Kent, incredible, fascinating stuff! THANK YOU for sharing!

Steve

I've chimed in a couple of times on this forum asking about the California Fractional gold coins. Thought I'd add my two-cent (gold coin) to the thread , as well. I found a gold half dollar last year at an old fairground (Indiana) that started in the 1850's. It was the first coin I found with my G2+, the first time I used it. I'm not making that up...honest.

I knew about the US gold coins, but never heard of the California fractional gold coins. I thought it was the back clip to a gold earring when I first saw it. It was too small to be a $1 gold coin. I called over my hunting buddy and told him I found something gold. He looked at it and started telling me it was a gold coin...California fractional. I didn't believe him at first. I did not clean it for fear of scratching it, but enough showed through for him to see. This site has been well hunted over the years by many folks. I've been hunting this site for three years with a F75 and found a few trimes, IH's, three cent (nickel), a half-reale, many half-dimes, three dimes and two-cent. My hunting buddy has found similar items, as well, with neither of us finding large silver coins. Lots of iron patches throughout the grounds and that is where we have been finding the coins. I bought the G2+ to help in that effort. My buddy uses a Deus.

This gold half dollar gives a 47-48 VDI on the G2+. On my F75 the VDI air tested at 19-20. From these numbers, the 19.2 kHz of the G2+, certainly helps this coin's detect-ability.

These California fractional coins are so small and light, it is hard to believe anyone walked around with them in their pockets. Perhaps they were given as prizes for the races or agricultural competition entry winners.
As Tom mentioned earlier in this thread, these were circulated well but very difficult to find.


[www.flickr.com]


[www.flickr.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2017 12:49PM by jak135.

Wow jak! Congrat's!!! I would MUCH rather find one of those..... than a handful of $20.00 Double Eagles! I'm well aware of the fractionals; yet, not knowledgeable enough to speak intelligently about them. And........ your metal detectors ID of that coin..... tells me that it is most probably authentic.

That is something else, I didn't even know they were made. I will start digging every thing down to iron. Very nice coin.

For more info on California Fractional gold coins & tokens, this is a good link to start your research.
The one I found is the BG-432.


California Fractional Gold - PCGS CoinFacts