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On my mind -- Random Thoughts

Posted by NASA-Tom 
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 20, 2019 07:37PM
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2019 07:40PM by tnsharpshooter.
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 23, 2019 06:27PM
Why is there such a large following..... for Minelab?
"What" are the Minelab units most 'known' for?
"What" is the 'primary' comment about the Minelabs?

ANSWER: Deep Silver

Most of us know this. But...… what most of us do not know …. (or pay no mind)...… is the 'order-of-magnitude' of hunters ...after deep silver. We underestimate the importance of "Deep Silver" seeking units. There are more coin hunters out there.... than perceived. In particular: Deep coins. (Critical data!).
When a Mfr can trump the current-day/current-technology "Deep Silver" seeking units...… it becomes a automatic best-seller. Even if the same Mfr out-trumps their current-day Deep Silver seeking unit(s). This can make a company … into a "Flagship" company.
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 23, 2019 06:43PM
NASA-Tom,

An interesting post! I totally agree with you, and boy do I look forward to a manufacturer who can trump current-day/current-technology flagship units, in this specific application. While MANY units can, of course, "see" a deep silver coin, Minelab machines, in my view, can most consistently, most effectively, communicate "intelligence" to a deep coin hunter in a way that allows them to make those dig/no-dig decisions more effectively, and more accurately, than any other unit. Again, just my opinion, and I know many will disagree, saying that "X" unit can see a silver coin "deeper" than a Minelab, or that they prefer another machine for this specific task, and that's fine. I agree that many machines are capable of helping someone who "knows" the machine, find deep coins. But, for me, Minelab is unparalleled in this regard, and I look forward to WHOMEVER can trump Minelab's "reign" over this specific aspect of detecting. I expect that it will be "Minelab" that will "out-trump" themselves, but am fully open-minded to WHOMEVER manages to do so.

My only question is, is it "do-able," within the current VLF-IB framework, the "induction-coupled" paradigm, as I think you call it? OR, will it take something truly "outside the box," and quite a ways off into the future, to pull it off?

Steve
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 23, 2019 08:31PM
Totally agree Minelab has the edge, but I never cared much for deep silver (unless it's seated or older, not trying to be arrogant) as I've been primarily a beach and relic hunter for the last 35 years. Started hunting coins when I was a kid but quickly realized, at least for me, that relics and rings have a bit more of a story attached to them. Always surprises me when a coin turns up because it's the last thing on my mind.

Bought a Minelab Sovereign when they first came out in 1991 and have owned at least 1 Minelab unit since. The thing that sold me on Minelab was their ability to ID targets at depth, not just silver. Even though the Sovereign, Explorer, E-trac, etc are not good low conductor units and they are slow, they still do better than most. Then the Deus came out and I hung up the Explorer for about 3 years for relic hunting but still used it on the beach in addition to a bunch of PI units (one of which was also a Minelab).

Now enter the Equinox, didn't like it at first, had to force myself to relearn the Minelabish tones after using the Deus so much. But now having hundreds or hours on the Equinox I see where it's roots are. Using the Explorer for so many years I got good at translating all the chips, one way signals, bouncing numbers, etc. on deep targets. Equinox has these similarities on deep targets, you can't immediately write off a deep iron sounding target (at least in my soil) as iron. You have to scrutinize the target and watch those positive numbers because they are clues as to what lies below. Sure other detectors might see the same target but their ID is so skewed you can't count on it. Not that I need accurate ID because I dig everything anyway, but it's nice to have a heads up so I don't put my shovel blade across the front of a nice coin or button.

My thought is that if any company can merge the PI and VLF technology into one unit, it's Minelab. Imagine the depth!!!!! and accurate ID!!!!!!! Even if it was two detectors in one, where you could switch from PI to VLF with the push of a button, it would be a game changer.
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 23, 2019 08:45PM
Deep is of course important, but perhaps the quantity of masked and silent masked silver is also considerable.

The Whites TDI provided a useful degree of “silver only” ID and a certain amount of “see through” as well by offsetting the GB setting and listening for high conductor signal only. the only problem was that the depth was unremarkable when set up that way. Perhaps Alexandre Tartar can be persuaded to cook up a PI which can do the same trick to depths competitive with and FBS/BBS machine.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 23, 2019 09:04PM
Abenson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Now enter the Equinox, didn't like it at first, ha
> d to force myself to relearn the Minelabish tones
> after using the Deus so much. But now having hundr
> eds or hours on the Equinox I see where it's roots
> are. Using the Explorer for so many years I got go
> od at translating all the chips, one way signals,
> bouncing numbers, etc. on deep targets. Equinox ha
> s these similarities on deep targets, you can't im
> mediately write off a deep iron sounding target (a
> t least in my soil) as iron. You have to scrutiniz
> e the target and watch those positive numbers beca
> use they are clues as to what lies below. Sure oth
> er detectors might see the same target but their I
> D is so skewed you can't count on it. Not that I n
> eed accurate ID because I dig everything anyway, b
> ut it's nice to have a heads up so I don't put my
> shovel blade across the front of a nice coin or bu
> tton.
>
> My thought is that if any company can merge the PI
> and VLF technology into one unit, it's Minelab. Im
> agine the depth!!!!! and accurate ID!!!!!!! Even i
> f it was two detectors in one, where you could swi
> tch from PI to VLF with the push of a button, it w
> ould be a game changer.


Abenson, I couldn't agree more; this portion of your post is spot-on, IMO.

Rick, I am totally unfamiliar with the TDI, and PI units in general. But as I said, I am absolutely open to WHOMEVER can offer an upgrade it ability, when it comes to deep coin hunting...S

Steve
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 23, 2019 09:49PM
ABenson - if you like deep relics in any ground and don’t much care about silver - you will run miles to buy an Impulse AQ when they arrive. Great quiet due to advanced circuitry and careful design, usable iron ID to near full depth and extreme sensitivity to low and medium conductors.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 23, 2019 11:56PM
"usable iron ID to near FULL DEPTH and extreme sensitivity to low and medium conductors." Speculation Rick? so ...... if the AQ does this ..... then why the need for the Terra? Three months and counting down..... will we see this machine by Christmas? Will it run in deeper water..... chest deep quietly at 7uS? Will it be a workable disc PI. I guess we will have to wait..... everything thus far looks good from the tester. How will it react to 24k gold in disc...... and how small of gold will we see?
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 24, 2019 12:27AM
dewcon -- my HOPE would be that the Terra would have, or could at least be tuned to have "extreme sensitivity to HIGH conductors..." winking smiley

Steve
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 24, 2019 12:49AM
I wonder ... will it be 7uS as well for dirt digging? Copper and silver .... can you have it both ways? I guess we don’t have to be concerned with which one for relics if they both see iron to full depth.
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 24, 2019 01:35AM
The AQ is for gold jewelry at the beach - if you want iron ID, you lose high conductors’

The Terra will - I am told - have GB capability for extreme mineralization

1. What iron ID capability will it have?

2. Will it be able to do the “TDI trick” of using the GB offset to isolate high conductors - and if so - will it be able to do that at depths beyond the limited utility of the TDI in that mode?

3. I have no idea to the answers to the questions above - but I am VERY curious.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 24, 2019 10:53AM
Well it sounds like there will be an eventual release. That is good news. An iron discriminating PI has been talked about since the beginning of PI detectors. If you throw in quiet that is quite the detector. I have used some through the years that just gave me a headache or made me dial them down to the point of no benefit. They need to get it right. I'll wait.
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 24, 2019 11:40AM
I can deal with the bit of swoosh thru the water....... but chatter drives me nuts. Ive found out since using the MDT with a salt setting..... things change from wet sand to chin deep a good bit. Even with the Nox......knee deep to chin really makes a difference how much chatter you get.... especially in the trough. The one thing you have to remember about the TDI is it does allow for a battery mod and doesnt have a limiter so more power to the coil can be used. Ive heard the Terra and AQ its set...... so it is what it is. A smaller mono coil is still needed..... thats a pretty good size standard coil to push around on yellow flag days. I assume BOTH would find relics in an AM mode...... which would do it better?
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 24, 2019 12:36PM
SUPERIOR metal detector engineering designer =

Inventing something that does not exist yet.
That epiphanictically opens a "need".
That we never knew we "needed".

Said differently: To create a market 'need'... that does not exist. Then create a product...for that 'need'.

Invent the 'need'. Market the 'need'. Fulfill the 'need'.
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 24, 2019 12:51PM
When it comes to water machines ...... we have been limited....... in depth, sensitivity, and a PI that disc for years. What happened....... did someone suddenly notice us? OR was there simply no way to improve these water machines?
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 24, 2019 08:19PM
Rick-I plan to get the AQ if it's not ridiculous priced because I don't beach hunt all the time. The thing I worry about with the AQ is it discriminating out high conductors. Even though I'm mostly digging low conductors I don't want to miss belt plates, large buttons, bullets and coins which the AQ will probably disc out.
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 24, 2019 11:03PM
Abenson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>The
> thing I worry about with the AQ is it discriminati
> ng out high conductors. Even though I'm mostly dig
> ging low conductors I don't want to miss belt plat
> es, large buttons, bullets and coins which the AQ
> will probably disc out.


My thoughts, also...

Steve
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 25, 2019 03:34AM
The AQ is for the beach. How useful it will be inland, where the iron ID also will discriminate out some other high conductors, remains to be seen. Inland, PI’s only have strong advantage over VLF’s in bad ground, If your VLF can only get 5” and the PI can get 14” its a real difference,

The audio in all metal on the AQ is very “shape sensitive” because it reacts so fast. It may be that techniques can readily be developed to make the all metal mode useful for deep relics, even high conductive ones. Frankly, nobody has tried it - the developers had a laser like focus on gold jewelry at the salt beach.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 25, 2019 10:57AM
A specific beach machine missing high conductors actually sounds like a benefit to me. People that will get the most out of this detector have no interest in digging coins. On hot labor intensive days I skip high tones all the time. The last thing I want to do is spend time and energy digging a dime a foot deep. Especially when you factor in the that mother nature is filling the hole back up faster than you can dig it.

Depth, stability, discrimination, and ergonomic. If it can deliver these I'll fill my coin jars another way.
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 26, 2019 06:48AM
lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The AQ is for the beach. How useful it will be inl
> and, where the iron ID also will discriminate out
> some other high conductors, remains to be seen. In
> land, PI’s only have strong advantage over VLF’s i
> n bad ground, If your VLF can only get 5” and the
> PI can get 14” its a real difference,
>
> The audio in all metal on the AQ is very “shape se
> nsitive” because it reacts so fast. It may be tha
> t techniques can readily be developed to make the
> all metal mode useful for deep relics, even high c
> onductive ones. Frankly, nobody has tried it - the
> developers had a laser like focus on gold jewelry
> at the salt beach.


PI’s only have strong advantage over VLF’s i
> n bad ground

You sure about this statement?
Seems you may just be forgetting something.
Seems I read on this forum, PI detector not as likely to be blinded by small rust, etc vs VLF detector.

This new Fisher AQ detector. Will be curious as time passes, how it stacks up when compared to previous comments as far as Pi detector ops made in this delightful thread.
This thread here defintley educational. Worth a read even a reread imo,
[www.dankowskidetectors.com]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2019 07:08AM by tnsharpshooter.
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 26, 2019 11:04AM
Goodmore......... a lot of beach hunters do feel they HAVE to dig high tones or miss silver and coins. In a year what does it cost you not digging these targets? I suspect i can dig nearly $300 in change in the water ...... silver about the same melt. But.... with a machine like the AQ how much more gold could one find digging less of those targets and covering more water? Im finding myself trying to do more of that now with the MDT. 30 digits ... and it appears as thou most of .... if not all of my gold is falling in the 10 and below digit. Even the heavy gold that normally fall in the penny range... which is 13 on the MDT. But i have to admit...... its hard not digging a signal that isnt iron. There going to be a LOT of that IF the AQ can get to it. Why do i say that ....... because 3' of sand pushed in ... not even the AQ getting there. Is it me or are more dirt hunters realizing ...... humm maybe i need to hit those lakes and ponds instead of that hunted out park.

Steve you may find yourself .... running AM doing reverse disc when gold hunting. As i said i think its difficult for many if not most hunters to pass up a target no matter what it is. Must be the treasure hunter in us. I get a chuckle everytime i see someone post ..... how do i just find JUST gold on the beach. Even with a given window..... VERY VERY few will pattern hunt. So its going to be interesting just how people hunt with the AQ..... and why.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2019 11:07AM by dewcon4414.
OBN
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 27, 2019 03:34PM
I love my silver also, a great sign gold is near, but that's what the excalibur is for..finding these Hot spots then coming back....... with the "AQ" and digging all.

Come on "AQ" ...

Blood Member of RingKeepers
2020......Gold Rings....73....Misc Gold 1 .......Silvers ...110
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 27, 2019 04:16PM
What I like about this forum is that detecting can be and is discussed without prejudice whether it's about old equipment or the latest and greatest providing a lot of learning material for all of us.
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 27, 2019 06:04PM
Joe....if the AQ does what it’s being billed at....you won’t need the Xcal... nor will you need to dig it all. Just those non-ferrous targets in the gold range..... we hope lol.
OBN
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 27, 2019 09:26PM
dewcon4414 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Joe....if the AQ does what it’s being billed at...
> .you won’t need the Xcal... nor will you need to d
> ig it all. Just those non-ferrous targets in the
> gold range..... we hope lol.

Will see buddy but to be honest I don't see any machine when using discrimination being able to give me a perfect ID on a deep, deeper then deepest targets. Specially when it comes to so many variables different shapes, sizes, weights, continence, and surroundings.

Also we know how rough salt water and time used "In" can be on machines, I can repair the excalibur but not the "AQ". It will be like the big gun, going in for the final kill.."The Grim Reaper"

We hope..eye popping smiley

Blood Member of RingKeepers
2020......Gold Rings....73....Misc Gold 1 .......Silvers ...110
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
August 27, 2019 09:41PM
Hey but no iron or high conductors.....that 50% of the problem. Besides Rick said it can ID iron to depth. Consider this .... on the MDT there are 30 negative digits and 39 positive ones....you would only dig 1 (foil) to 10 (just below a penny.). I think the MDT shows promise .....with out having to switch between PI and VLF.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2019 12:35PM by dewcon4414.
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
October 01, 2019 01:46AM
New software upgrades.
1. We KNOW what we want to do..... and we do it.
2. We KNOW the side-effects.
3. We DON'T know the "unknown" side-effects.

This is always a concern. (((Last year.... I had a software update to my cellphone. Bottom line: AT&T/Apple had to replace my phone! Update went terribly wrong...… unsuspectingly))). It can happen to any electronic device. Metal detector upgrades can be no different. We DO test the upgrade.... until we are blue in the face; yet, does this guarantee perfect results across the world!?!! We do the best we can..... and forge forward...…. to the best of our technological skillset.

One of my concerns with the new EQX MUU-2 software upgrade:
Driving FE to 'below zero' parameters...….. what/how is the unit (now) going to respond to bad iron (fe) dirt. It was tested in many variants of bad dirt...… but not ALL (100% World coverage) bad dirt. So far...…. all is well (and.... in many cases: better than expected); yet, the option to revert back to a previous software build...… has positively been left/available...….. even for those folks of whom may be a little 'resistant-to-change'.
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
October 09, 2019 12:41AM
And again. Heavy on my brain:

Why must we use a medium of: MAGNETIC energy...…………….....……………...in MAGNETIC dirt...……………… (loaded with)...…………. MAGNETIC nails.

(Sounds illogical ……… self-defeating).


We need a device whereby...…. nails look like silica.
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
October 16, 2019 12:16AM
If only to brainstorm enough..... to make iron look like silica.
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
October 16, 2019 02:58AM
That would be something. See through all the iron like it wasn't there. That's the next new thing in metal detecting. And then a detector that can differentiate aluminum from gold.
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