On my mind -- Random Thoughts

I'm thinking a virtual coil might be one in which the user can manipulate the characteristics of a coil's magnetic field via input... maybe changing the shape (donut vs. "U" to possibly a "V", etc.), size (footprint from small to large, etc.), and possibly depth of field. Aside from threshold, sensitivity, discrimination, etc., imagine if the user could also effectively customize the magnetic field produced by the coil to the desired characteristics for different hunting circumstances!

Or I could be way off base and need to quit looking out the window daydreaming LOL... can't wait till you can tell us, Tom!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2016 09:44PM by DFinTX.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ....... I (subconsciously) succumb to the
> mental mindset of: "I bet this is just another
> depth incarcerated unit."

Sadly, I can relate to that...and I really like that phrasing.

The problem where I'm at (in moderate to heavy mineralization) is that the silver strata (for the most part) is just out of reach of current VLF units.
There's still the occasional silver masked by junk, but even that has quickly turned into the equivalent of "scratching around for table scraps".

Only with the proper weather, luck, and 'iffy' signal digging can my modern units get down deeply enough.
I'm more than ready for a (real) breakthrough.

mike

Four (of the many) concerted efforts/focus of CDE's 'signature' at the various metal detector Mfr'ing plants are:

1) Mineralization
2) Depth
3) ID accuracy
4) Trash-handling/unmasking abilities

It appears Blisstool puts #1 focus on depth (with all other efforts/focus secondary.......... yet, these secondary inputs play a critical role/interaction in the primary intent ...... in this case of Blisstool's primary: 'depth' ).
XP places #1 focus on unmasking.
Garrett places #1 focus on ID.
Fisher places #1 focus on depth simultaneous with ID.

Each Mfr has a (subconscious) 'signature' intent ..............................hence; the generation of 'semi-niche' detectors....... that may fit individual detectorists specific needs.

Since its been brought up in a recent thread........ and in recent-past threads........... AND......... I just performed 'collective data' numbers-crunching........ I can make the following statement:

* As of March, 2016......with current-day technological advancements in metal detection equipment................,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,............... the nominal/median average unmasking abilities in (specifically) iron............ is approximately 4.7%

This data is based from many sites with many varying (to be read: 'variable' ) conditions. It is an overall aggregate....... and is about finding non-ferrous targets of any conductivity........vs........ferrous targets. If you are in carpets of nails (another vague/variable statement)....... then, , , unmasking (at best) still remains less than 1%. If you are in less trashy environments....... then the unmasking numbers/percentage goes up considerably.

((( I'm using the word 'unmasking' incorrectly...... and loosely; yet, intentions are to have/present better percentage of understanding to most readers. )))

If I had the time to type & share all of my collected/documented data on such subject-matter....... you would see my psychosis with this burning-passion hobby. And.............. also.............. Hence my applaud/KUDOS/accolades to those design engineers of whom place 'blood-time' on design platform(s) specifically targeting the (unsuspecting) extreme crippling effects of iron & masking.

Can't get this off of my mind:

DIMENSIONS

Right now.................... current-day technology metal detectors......................... detect objects in two primary DIMENSIONS (capacities):

1. Detects a metal object by breaking/distorting a inductively balanced electromagnetic field.
2. Looks/analyzes the 'phase-shift' of the detected metallic object to give/present a general determination of 'conductivity' of the metal............................ to then culminate in the creation of "ID guesstimate".

These are the only 2 dimensions that current-day technology is performing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WHAT IF............. we introduce a 3rd DIMENSION.

My thought: I'm going to give this thought/example by utilizing two targets of similar conductivity: a piece of chewed up aluminum 'can-slaw' and a 'nickel'.
Both can be detected by a current-day metal detector. Either item will break the 'inductive balance' of the electromagnetic field when either metallic target/object is entered into the balanced field of a metal detectors coil.
Both targets will (via phase shift) ID as 'nickel' conductivity range.

Now............. to enter a 3rd dimension. So far............ to a metal detector............... both objects look similar. BUT............ if you look at an O-Scope trace of a nickel.............. and an O-Scope trace of the jagged aluminum soda 'can-slaw'........... the O-Scope trace of the nickel is a VERY smooth trace........................ whereby/on-the-contrary.................... the O-Scope trace of the jagged piece of aluminum is a very dirty/splattered/jagged trace.
This is a highly differentiable/delineation that can be electronically captured. This could be the third DIMENSION that a future detector could incorporate...... for additional artificial intelligence enhancement. How? Through/via audio.

The metal detector already detects a metal object............. so the metal detector 'goes beep'...... and reports a audio detection response. The conductivity of the detected object causes the 'audio beep' to be of a certain conductivity 'tone'.
Now........... with this new/discovered 3rd dimension of intelligence............. the reported audio tone of a certain frequency (dictated by the targets conductivity)...... could then be audibly enhanced by a fast/rapid 'warble' in the audio tone........ so as to inform the operator that the detected target is "O-Scope trace: jagged".
On the contrary............... the nickel would report a 'smooth/non-wavering' audio report.

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(((( And all of this is assuming that we still continue to use detection devices under the physics principle of: electromagnetic detection on a magnetic/electromagnetic core Earth........ that is loaded with magnetic iron......and electromagnetic oxides of iron. ))))

"if you look at an O-Scope trace of a nickel.............. and an O-Scope trace of the jagged aluminum soda 'can-slaw'."

I remember reading a post where a guy was able to use an o-scope to tell the difference between gold rings and pull tabs. A lot of people were debunking it as, "Just a story". Perhaps not.

I might be out of bounds here by saying,,,but IMO Xp Deus may already be using some sort of 3rd dimension look see of target,,,it loves round targets,,and not just nonferrous ones either.

Give me a 1236x2 and I can call a coin at 6-7" with a high degree of success just by the sound. Todays engineers need to pick apart the characteristics of analog audio processing on machines such as that one and enhance it further.

Tom

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
In a democracy, it is difficult to win fellow citizens over to your own side, or to build public support to remedy injustices that remain all too real when you fundamentally misunderstand how they see the world.

Wounded.

In the past 7 months....... I have run into 4 State Archaeologists ....... completely independent of one-another...... of whom have made nearly the exact/same statement to me:

"Life begins at 3-feet"

After the 4th Archaeologist made this statement......... it 'frustrated' me enough to pin him down for some 'questioning'. In short:
1) "You" detectorists are only playing in the top 12" of peat. "You guys" haven't even gotten down to the 'dirt' yet. You may find a proverbial 'acorn' in your peat top-soil......just enough to keep your interest.
2) If you want to find things from the early 1700's........ you need to dig 3-feet. "Life begins at 3-feet". ((He showed me many documents proving exactly this.))
3) "Be a real man........ and dig pits in strategic locations....... and your eyes will be opened".

I'm well aware of these facts; yet, wounded again by this 'reality-check'........and from multiple scientific fact-based sources.........,,,,,,,,,,, that do this for a living.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> * What detector flavor will it be THIS week???
>
> * If the Minelab's are 1.5Khz - 100Khz....... why
> are these units not 'hot' on micro-jewelry (especi
> ally with 100Khz). ( !!! )
>
> * Very brilliant/passionate minds (and eager to sh
> are) on this forum. Stunning.
>
> * Winter blues onset evident! (via tension - frust
> ration - passion - stir.crazy!) ((( The personalit
> ies on this forum are full broadband spectrum! )))

So many new flavor's to choose from. I bet I have high detector sugar! Great forum!
>
> * Funny how 20 (or even 30) year-old units are mak
> ing a comeback..... esp w/respect to depth. (Have
> we gained any depth in the past 20/30 years?).
>
> * Mixed feelings about Nokta posting on this forum
> (multiple reasons)...... but......... willing to t
> urn a blind-eye.......... as they are not bragging
> about how great they are (or how superior their de
> tectors are)...... and are (not quite) 'pushing' s
> ales; rather, looking/asking for engineering/conce
> pt input.
>
> * Less than 1% of the folks that buy detectors in
> this world.......... are on any forums. And the de
> tectorists/folks on this specific forum (percentag
> e-wise) are even less. BUT/HOWEVER: the intelligen
> ce conveyed/imparted on this forum is priceless da
> ta to Manufacturers.... and paves the road to huma
> n advancement in many regards. On this planet Eart
> h that we share.......... there are unfathomable s
> ecrets beyond belief/comprehension in the dirt ben
> eath our very own feet. . . . . . (((of which is t
> aken too lightly))).
>
> * It's good to see the shared communications of al
> l the stengths/weakness' of different brands/units
> ........ and no hard feelings imparted because som
> eone has a 'old, favorite' love/passion in their h
> eart for a Whites, or Garrett, or Tesoro, or Minel
> ab or, or, or........... etc....
>
> * Air tests are more important then perceived; yet
> ........... yes............... disqualifying varia
> bles (however less) can still be induced. . . . if
> precautions are not employed.
>
> * Where is KC Steve?
>
> * Freedom of Speech.............. Freedom of Speec
> h.................. Freedom of Speech!!!!!! Have-a
> t-it........ Gent's!!!!!!!!!

Life Begins at 3 - Feet,................. I believe that.

I'm sure it varies and 3' is probably an average.

As I have proven this to myself digging pits....finding 2 - 1803 - 1825 coins in one small 20" deep pit...rare just to find two that close together near the surface.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2017 01:10AM by ozzie.

[www.dailypress.com]

ozzie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Life Begins at 3 - Feet,................. I believ
> e that.
>
> I'm sure it varies and 3' is probably an average.
>
> As I have proven this to myself digging pits....fi
> nding 2 - 1803 - 1825 coins in one small 20" deep
> pit...rare to find two that close together near th
> e surface.

And ends at 6 feet.

skinner...... many thanks for that stunning (short-duration) link.

N/T



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2017 10:02PM by ozzie.

My ultimate life-long (treasure hunting) quest:

Is there any form of a device in this World that can locate.... Half-Dimes and Cuff Buttons.... in the 17"-21" depth stratification layer.

((( I may be asking this question...about a Decade too early. )))

IF such a machine were made, it would suffer terribly from masking, your average nail would likely swamp the coin signal if it were anywhere within 12" (30cm) of it.
I'm pretty sure making a machine that airtested those depths is viable, but there's so few 'grounds' that would allow such performance to be exploited. Dry sand ? Wet freshwater sand?

Yes.....IF it were to remain VLF, IB, Motion Discrimination...... then it would require open fields, pastures, woods, plains..... where no building/structure existed.

Tom what other platforms are there. PI? or something radically new?

"""Now............. to enter a 3rd dimension. So far............ to a metal detector............... both objects look similar. BUT............ if you look at an O-Scope trace of a nickel.............. and an O-Scope trace of the jagged aluminum soda 'can-slaw'........... the O-Scope trace of the nickel is a VERY smooth trace........................ whereby/on-the-contrary.................... the O-Scope trace of the jagged piece of aluminum is a very dirty/splattered/jagged trace. """"

This is very frequency dependant, Tom.

I can see this very thing in the Analysis screen of the V3 with foil. Not in the hump but in the line leading into and out of the hump and only in 2.5 kHz. As the frequency increases this line smooths out and the id is lost. This tells me that to do the thing you wish with heavy odd shapt aluminum is close to possible right now, but you would have to dial in the right frequency to make it happen. I ran into this while looking at frequency and mass, basically looking to ignore or positively identify light foil with low frequency, and the only low frequency unit I have available is the V3.

HH
Mike

Where activity took place is where old coins will be,I.e trashy. The odd coin dropped by someone back whenever away from active environments would be rare
as a dime was a lot.

------------"Cz's still bad to the bone".------------
Living on a big ass Astroid.
The woman that got my rib,I want it back.

possum mo = My point exactly. I am seeking a 'device'........ trying to steer away from the channeled/narrowed mindset of "metal" "detector". (To include PI). The "device" may have nothing to do with electromagnetic energy/inductive coupling. I know of no such device as of yet. It may not have been invented yet.

Mike Hillis = Yes...... different frequencies certainly do change/alter (and even diminish) the signature-to-hull-emitter-correlation "signature" of certain targets..... especially to the naked eye; yet, electronics can be sensitive enough to see/detect (at differing frequencies).

supertraq = You are absolutely correct; yet, you'd be surprised as to what 'field hunting' can produce. Imagine seeing 12" under your feet. Then......... imagine having the ability to see 24" under your feet! ......even in 'so-called' open fields!

------------------------------- Totally separate observation/comment: =

I am not the type to answer individuals questions/comments with multiple individual posts (so as to make my 'post count' rapidly go up)! Combine/Consolidate!

* Would there be any weighted-value in revisiting VLF IB ""NON-MOTION""........ with the current technological advancement(s) in microprocessor(s). . . . . . . . if we are still incarcerated in a world of VLF IB electromagnetics.

Isn't that what Nexus detectors are IB non-motion? Just not processor controlled.

DeepTech Vista X with 3 search coils.
Works for me

The Nexus is one unit that I've never touched....... so I have no base-reference for comparison. If the microprocessor allows it to electronically/audibly separate between a ferrous and non-ferrous target ....that are extremely close to each other......... we are in the right/correct direction.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> * Would there be any weighted-value in revisiting
> VLF IB ""NON-MOTION""........ with the current
> technological advancement(s) in microprocessor(s).
> . . . . . . . if we are still incarcerated in a wo
> rld of VLF IB electromagnetics.

I've always thought so...
We've got ourselves stuck in the mindset of motion required ID, and thus the concept of 'recovery speed'.
'Recovery speed' is a necessary evil of the motion ID limitations.
A non-motion disc...by definition...has a 'recovery speed' of infinity.

I'd love to see some out-of-the-box breakthrough that would combine the non-motion disc and see-through performance of the old AH Pro, with about a 24" depth capability.

mike

EDIT - As a side note, I was doing some 'performance seeing coins in nails' tests with some of my units recently, and just for grins, I pulled out some of the older non-motion units from the '70s...
Every one of them STOMPED every modern detector tested. (...with the critical exception of the category of depth, of course, where performance was dismal for the older units.)
Non motion units don't care which direction you approach nails/coins from...tip/side/point...it's all the same. Zero falsing. Ignores the nails, and hits the coins solid.
It's pretty awesome to watch/see.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2017 02:04AM by Mike in CO.

The U.K brand 'C-Scope' do make some quite competent non-motion machines, the 1220XD is the current top-end model. I've never used one myself, but those who have seem to like them, they're certainly not "70's machines".
[www.csmetaldetectors.com]

There are 'proper/accurate ID' limitations with non-motion; yet, there is a lot to be gleaned............. worthy of revisiting.

Sven1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Isn't that what Nexus detectors are IB non-motion?
> Just not processor controlled.

Sven,as you are aware i own and use 2 Nexus machines the Standard SE with the dual 9'' coil and also the latest Nexus MP with all 3 coil options ie 7'',10'' and the 13'' coil,the main reason i use these machines is for the extra depth that i require on some of my Saxon/Roman sites and of course deep pasture is another scenario that they excel at,are they deeper than other machines ?? i wont lay claims about actual depth figures but on my pastures sites when the potential targets ie artifact or scattered hoards are typically located then the odds of finding these types of targets increased in my favour.

Because our history here in the UK goes back 1000s of years and romans/saxon and celtics never had banks the only safe place for the most part was digging a hole and burying the item/s,typically modern deep ploughing is clipping the tops of say the pots that hoards are typically buried in and a scattering a few coins around and you can see a pattern emerging as the plough drags them out.So this is when you require a machine that can gain you the additional depth over a normal VLF discriminating detector with a stock coil,a Nexus or specialised machine allows me too do this,the other option is of course a Pulse which i also use the TDI Pro.

Trouble is machines like say the Nexus do/can take sometime to master to get the maximum performance out of these machines,if you are a switch on and go merchant then these machines are not for you,but if you yearn the extra depth for specific site use then your typical switch on and go detector is not the right tool for the job.Of course these are just my opinions and my thoughts on how i use my machines for my sites,no one machine can do it all,hence the reason why i own and use a few detectors.

Dan(NM) has brought up a subject that has triggered me to share the following:

After looking through a pile of my old notes........ I have run across some data that poses 'norm' masking severity. I have hunted (trained) a few of our forum members in carpets-of-nails hunting.... and pit-digging applications. At one of the pit digs........ a 7-foot by 10-foot carpets-of-nails area produced 4 non-ferrous items with a metal detector (F75 w/5" DD coil)........ before we commenced digging the pit. Digging the pit in this particular area revealed that all metallic objects ceased to exist at the 23" depth mark. This is to say: We dug a 7' x 10' x 22" deep pit. In a nutshell........ 1655 nails & ferrous implements were recovered. But..... 141 more NON-ferrous items/implements were recovered. The metal detector (before digging the pit) had located 4 non-ferrous targets........ and missed 141 non-ferrous targets that were located via a excavation/pit-dig. I consider the F75 w/5" coil...... as 'modern' good technology (for a 2017 base-reference model). BUT....... I can confidently say that the CZ would NOT have these 4 non-ferrous targets. Sooooooooo........... the hobby and technology HAVE advanced. You can easily see...... just how much. We still have a long way to go. Which brings me to my next thought:

If newer inventions/technology can find just 4 more non-ferrous targets in this exact same area.......... we have advanced by 100%; yet........ 94% of the non-ferrous targets remain in the ground. If ANY Mfr can create/invent some (ANY) technology to help combat these conditions..... we have made serious leaps/gains in the correct direction. My gut tells me..... that a few Mfr's are on the 'brink' of small break-through's.Masking is no longer a avoided/dirty word with Mfr's...... rather.... it's 'opportunity'. At my age...... I'll take anything I can get...... whilst I can still 'dig'.

And looking at the numbers/ratios of other pit-digs I have performed...... 4/141/1655.... is a very typical resultant.

100-Khz may perform miracles in iron........ and 10-Khz may also present unique opportunities. What if we created a multi-freq unit that had operating freq's of 10-Khz & 100-Khz simul? And there's plenty of other electronic opportunities that await future technology invention.