I don't post much but I read almost everything on this forum. Lots of good info here. Thanks Tom for providing this forum.

It would be interesting if FBS could switch to single freq of choice as well as multi. Since they do have one that swaps coils and one that you flip a switch..... looks like the obvious next step. No winter blues here Tom...... water temp 67 and not quite elbow to elbow out there now. Look how long its taken some to even speed up the processor. Who knows if we could get more computer gurus involved that could understand what the tech gurus are telling them. I think one thing most of us dislike is detector comparisons where the person either dont know how to use all the detectors or uses conditions to their advantage. Its not as simple as they try to make it out to be.

Dew

(((( What? No repercussions??? ......... we have grown! ))))

First of all...this is a great forum. One of just a couple that I post on. I don't think I've had but one person I've had some disagreements with, and that was Critterhunter who seldom posts anymore. Back in the day, that fella knew how to push my button and make me ready to track down an IP address and show up on his doorstep. Hahah.

Now then..onto the topics.

Depth in general hitting a wall. I think so on the VLF machines. We aren't really seeing any new coil technology. We are seeing that more people have became aware of their soil conditions and are choosing the coils best suited for hunting in it. We get the illusion of a major depth increase...but now, larger DD coils in the 10x12 or 12x13, etc are becoming the normal size...where as back in the 90s or so, it was 8 and 9 inch round concentric coils that ruled the day. In bad dirt, when a person makes the jump from a concentric coil to a DD coil...the results speak for themselves.

The main goal of US detector companies these days, seems to be to recruit new users to the hobby...by offering affordable low-middle grade units. While leaving their flagship models to stand the course of several years (decade+ time frames) and not offering much in developing that area. The European scene is different, in that their detector companies seem to be catering to making detectors to unmask in iron. This has sort of spread over here in niche areas. Overall depth has either taken a back seat or has hit a wall in this area for sure, IMO.

The depth is being obtained with the pulse machines though. If a person wants to dig deep, that is the route to go. But even still....with machines like the GPX, we are getting down to the 18-20 inch strata....but that is just reaching the mid 1860s time period in some locations. Stuff is deeper for sure and out of reach of modern detectors. If you don't believe this...go hunt a site that has had several feet of the top soil removed and hauled away. I remember a spot in town, in which they had began doing the ground work to build a WalGreens pharmacy. This was right beside a house built in 1858 that is used as a bed and breakfast now. I would watch the construction on my way to work and back home. I waited for the weekend so I could go hunt it without the equipment being ran. Well...they were working 7 days a week. I got there after about 3 to 5 feet of soil had been removed. They took it down so far, that they had exposed the remains of a city water pipe no longer in use. I knew for sure that any coins or relics that were there, had been hauled away. I decided to try it anyway. My first signal....I looked down and saw it laying on top after my coil went over it. 1895 indian head cent. I hunted that spot for a little while and recovered several more coins from the late 1800s and early 1900s....most were just a few inches in the ground. This....after having over 3 FEET of dirt removed from it. They took even more soil off it and we recovered 3 silver coins from the 1850s and some civil war minie balls.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> (((( What? No repercussions??? ......... we have
> grown! ))))

Good call Tom. I asked my wife if I was 'brash'. She said "You can be at times when you get comfortable".
Born and raised in Phila, so that may be it. I've never been called brash around here, more like cocky, arrogant and crude.lol......You too Ray.

There's been a few FBS/BBS dissection threads on here, the use of 2 frequencies, 3.xx KHz and 8 times that freq, used in a clever way. But seemingly placing the emphasis on the 3 KHz, so it's not so hot on the small low-conductor targets. I can't help wonder if it's possible to Minelab to 'reverse' the emphasis, so it's a 25KHz machine with some modest amount of enhanced ground cancelling. [I'm not familiar with the CTX's tricks, so maybe they now can do something like this...]

I was going to post something explosive but haven't had my 10th cup of coffee yet!

Drink up Steve. We need to hear it. Haha

John

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> *
> ,
> Kevin B light-hearted apologetic persona,
>

Did I just get called a wuss? I apologize. (lol)

This forum is like a TDI or any other metaldetector to some degree, you learn something new every day. Great bunch of folks with a " team " knowledge nearly knowing it all.

Flavor ? Seems like the detectortype with the best flavor at this time is the type with fast recoveryspeed and the best unmaskingcapability. Several brands with good flavor at the moment.

In the old days when people did not buy detectors as soon as they hit the shelves we said that a man that knew his detector could outhunt the guy with a new detector any day.

I will add to the modern era thinking. A fast recovery detector will never ( or at least not now ) reach as deep as a deep detector optimized for deep silver and relics. However, the deep detector can find the things that the fast ones can if you dig the trash, use your all metal, understand GB and minerals, have a great spirit and have fun.

OldandBold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I will add to the modern era thinking. A fast
> recovery detector will never ( or at least not now
> ) reach as deep as a deep detector optimized for
> deep silver and relics. However, the deep detector
> can find the things that the fast ones can if you
> dig the trash, use your all metal, understand GB
> and minerals, have a great spirit and have fun.

I 100% agree!

It's not detector depth that has grown, it's detector efficiency IMO. And it seems some of the new up and coming detector manufacturers have acknowledged this. They have decided to engineer detectors and coils to get a better look into the already thought to be exhausted depth strata. I have read where, for example, a Deus user and Minelab user were hunting together. The Minelab operator thinks the Deus user is going too fast. This word "efficient" needs to be used more when applied to metal detecting. Question, would you be happier finding 6 nice relics or coins at the 7 inch mark in and around iron over a 2 hour hunt or find 2 at the 10 inch mark in clean ground in the same 2 hour period?
Minelab machines generally are more efficient detectors for coin hunting. With their better TID system and good tones for silver, more time was/is spent digging holes with silver coins in them percentage wise versus other brands of detectors.
Time is something folks overlook too. Your time is valuable. Seconds count and add up. Again think about the Minelab machines. Very little adjustments to be made when going from site to site.
This new Nokta FORS CoRe unit seems to not have many adjustments and according to Mr Flynn it works well. And he's commented on superb TID in trash with small coil. Sounds like it is efficient to me. And in trash we sure don't need to be chasing crown caps, small bits of foil, etc.-time wasted.
The amount of time spent in the field usually relates to your success as well. It's a lot harder to detect for say 6 hours with a heavy detector versus a lighter unit. The same can be said of a detector's balance. A person's ability to maintain good coil sweep technique will generally erode with time as they tire.
Detector depth may increase ever so slightly probably because of battery power advancements. The Li Pro batteries can be made lighter and still produce as much or more power than their counterparts.
So IMO most folks need not worry so much about depth, but concentrate more on the detector's efficiency and ergonomics when they are considering which one to add to their arsenal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2015 06:56PM by tnsharpshooter.

I agree 1000%. Raw depth has never been a goal of mine. Machines, by and large, get enough depth for "most" places. Heck, some places coins/relics don't sink hardly at all! My deepest finds are pretty much always in cultivated fields or landscaped lawns. The real future is in unmasking and more accurate identification of targets, and this will come/is coming with faster processors and better coding/programming. I think we are literally on the verge of big things in this area. Basic VLF tech may have hit its pinnacle,(IE: physics limitations) but INTERPRETING the VLF's message is just getting started. The general fixation on sheer depth has always perplexed me...




jmaryt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hombre Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I still use some old outdated White's and
> Tesoro
> > metal detectors, I have hunted with friends
> with
> > some high dollar units and did not feel
> outgunned.
> > My oldest Tesoro is a really hot version of the
> > INCA (circa 1983), 8 inch dimes with the 8"
> coil
> > have been easy targets with some room left
> over.
> > My oldest White's is a 1994 model 5900 Di Pro SL
>
> > with the composite board, it is real deep when
> the
> > Signal Balance is set high and Ground Balance
> set
> > just a tiny bit positive. It has tagged an 8
> inch
> > gold ring and a 9 inch buffalo nickel, so much
> for
> > the belief that a low operating frequency of
> 6.59
> > kHz is not sensitive to low conductors.
>
>
> in my view,depth was adequate back in the 80's,
> it's how to get between the "crap" in the
> ground,and find the stuff hiding there!
> depth was sufficient back in the 80's!..ohhh i
> already said that!..ok!..detectors
> in general,have made great strides in this
> area,along with coil technology,however,
> it "has" to get better!
>
> (h.h.!)
> j.t.
>
> (h.h.!)
> j.t.

This is the best forum hands down. But Iam also a believer In research and getting out there and dig dig and dig. The best way to learn and have success in this great hobby no matter the machine brand. Corey

First of all great forum for sure. Like Daniel I have only had a problem with one member on hear and He knows who he is,But I will let it go for now. It is a shame that the Company who makes one of the all time deep seekers is almost out of business and that is the Nautilus company. I dug a 12'' Indian one time with the 8'' coil with a Nautilus IIba. To this day one of the deepest coil for coil machines I have ever used. Even with the current shape of the company still tempted to get another. The fact the you Tom mention them as one of the classic deep detectors just proves how great a detector they were and still are. And of course we must not forget the Great Fisher CZ's one of my all time favorites just plain simple and deep with the awesome adjustable modulated audio. Still one of the few analogs that can keep up with the Mighty Minelab E-trac/Explorer detectors. I still get a kick out of running into someone at a park with a E-trac or CTX 3030 usually a newbee and see the look on their face when they notice I'm using an''old analog'' detector. And then they brag about the silver rosie they got while I have a couple Barber dimes and a Indian in my pocket. I just smile and say good luck and don't even mention the coins or the fact I have an E-trac in the trunk of the car. Don't get me wrong the E-trac is a deadly deep turf coin hunter,But in some area's my CZ-3D ''tuned by you Tom'' will just see coins deeper. As you said once ''with the Fisher CZ Dave Johnson created a monster''!

I might get stirred up if I knew what you called me meant...LOL!!!

I dont think it was nothing bad about my momma...????

Keith

I can't help wonder if it's possible to Minelab to 'reverse' the emphasis, so it's a 25KHz machine with some modest amount of enhanced ground cancelling.

Don't know. Some smart people at Minelab. Suppose if there was an outcry against the CTX performance on low-conductors ... maybe. Perhaps it will be improved with the CTX-4040?

ozzie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NASA-Tom Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > (((( What? No repercussions??? ......... we
> have
> > grown! ))))
>
> Good call Tom. I asked my wife if I was 'brash'.
> She said "You can be at times when you get
> comfortable".
> Born and raised in Phila, so that may be it. I've
> never been called brash around here, more like
> cocky, arrogant and crude.lol......You too Ray.

Haha,yep! My wife tells me all the time Im cocky...and that my son is the same way!And so was her Dad, who was in the trades too! I think working construction kinda makes you that way...or breaks you,lol.

I want it all and I want it now. I want a NASA metal detector!

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

((( Me too! )))

Streak - Sheer depth is why everybody at DIV either has a GPX or wants one. If I'm not mistaken you had one at the last hunt I attended We could all make due without them but I don't know anybody that has one that would be willing to leave it back at the hotel in favor of an F19 or G2 or something similar. We're all using the pulse machines for those elbow and knee deep goodies and for finding those deep trash pits or huts. I guarantee if Minelab's newest pulse machine gets better depth and packs a $10,000 price tag, somebody will have one or two at DIV and then if they find more stuff than us, we'll all eventually have one.

First site I check every morning. Have learned more about detecting here than any other site. Several folks on here as well as Tom's articles on his home page have open my eyes to how to approach a site to get more targets that have been missed. I use a ET and find gold rings with it but have to dig trash to get them. Having watched a video on coil shape and how it affects seeing gold link chains, the elliptical seems to be the coil that sees gold chains and smaller gold items than a round DD coil. Even though it seems I have gotten more chains(without charms attached) and ear rings with the GBSE and the G2 I do get gold with the ET. 3 small bands in 2014 with conductive numbers being below 10 and the ferrous always a 12 even in the wet sand. Just wish it was a lighter as after a couple hours my shoulder is toast for a couple of days. That is why I am so happy with my upgraded LTD and use it more in the parks. HH JR

Johnnyanglo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Perhaps it will be
> improved with the CTX-4040?


Ok. Fess up! Am I the only one who googled this hahaha

Yes, you are. Don't ask me how I know, I am not allowed to say. ;-)

Past(or)Tom
Using a Legend, a Deus 2, an Equinox 800, a Tarsacci MDT 8000, & a few others...
with my beloved, fading Corgi, Sadie

every one uses a Ground-balancing pulse at DIV's to defeat that nasty dirt. When I go to other areas down there (VA) that hold CW relics, (in good dirt ) my machine of choice is my F75 LTD, not my GPX. Yes, they do prefer GPX's at DIV, but its for their great ability to handle the dirt primarily...................





Daniel Tn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Streak - Sheer depth is why everybody at DIV
> either has a GPX or wants one. If I'm not mistaken
> you had one at the last hunt I attended We
> could all make due without them but I don't know
> anybody that has one that would be willing to
> leave it back at the hotel in favor of an F19 or
> G2 or something similar. We're all using the
> pulse machines for those elbow and knee deep
> goodies and for finding those deep trash pits or
> huts. I guarantee if Minelab's newest pulse
> machine gets better depth and packs a $10,000
> price tag, somebody will have one or two at DIV
> and then if they find more stuff than us, we'll
> all eventually have one.

* Another thought: What if we had a two-inch ( 2" ) coil that had nearly all of the electromagnetic field-intensity energy directly under the coil (minimal side-splatter) ...... and it had 8" - 10" depth capabilities on coin-sized objects.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,. to be used in trashy areas. Do you think this would startle/open some eyes (epiphany)????

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> * Another thought: What if we had a two-inch ( 2"
> ) coil that had nearly all of the electromagnetic
> field-intensity energy directly under the coil
> (minimal side-splatter) ...... and it had 8" - 10"
> depth capabilities on coin-sized
> objects.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,. to be used in trashy
> areas. Do you think this would startle/open some
> eyes (epiphany)????


I'll take one for each of my machines please!

Is it possible to restrict the coil halo and create a footprint that narrow Tom? We talking DD or concentric.... which might be easier to do that with? Id even like to have that in a larger coil..... it would certainly run smoother and allow you to bump up the sensitivity. They have made some adjustments to the DD..... longer and narrower. Works good as long as you dont over power it. That splatter is the evil doer when it comes to chatter. Would be neat to have a knob where we could adjust or reform the halo from wider to taller.

Magnetic flux can be "tuned" to some degree. I believe Garrett made a coil that only detected on the bottom side. Can it be tuned enough to focus "beam" like? A magnetic flux gun? I dunno.

Interesting thought.

HH
Mike

A 2" coil and 8 to 10" would have to use "Solid Field Technology". Patten Pending! lol Possible pulse so fast it appears to create a solid field. Thought inspired by a rainy day and daydreaming