Hey NASA-TOM What do you think about this anomaly on the AT-PRO

I have posted the same video on another forum....and lot's of people are seeing the same thing...

Sort of quirky when it hit's a stick or twig..

Wont stop doing it till about 4 on sens...

could we be seeing another CZ type sens...where it cant run much above 5? depth is way out there on this thing...must be pushed into the stratosphere ......

does false pretty good on the ground also but I don't pay much attention to it...

here's the video.

[www.youtube.com]

coil cable as you can see is extra tight for the test...freq change does not help,still does it in normal mode also..

Keith

Good 'capture'......very interesting. At first....it looked like paint shielding on the bottom of the coil..............but..............the good thing is........ you performed/replicated this error in an air-test. It's not the coils paint shield system. Could be coil wire microphonics. ...... Can you lightly tap the coil wire with your finger.....and see if the unit lights-off?

I'm glad that the unit does not display this error/anomaly whilst sweeping coil in a normal fashion. It may be a inherent characteristic that this 'overdriven/steroid' unit will present. I know the CZ and ML Sov will not do this.....I'll have to try it with a F75 LTD in max boost....and see how it performs. In the advent the F75 does NOT do this.......you may want to clue-in Garrett....before too many of these units are released.

is the wire when tapped really does not false ..barley touching or even passing the wire in front of the coil does not cause problems...

Abrupt changes when swinging or twisting around obstacle does cause this....

tapping bottom of coil will cause it low tone instead of high tone...

Hitting brush( twig's,limb's,stubble ) causes high tones.. Right now it would be real hard to work in a overgrown type terrain....

I have noticed this same scenario with an MXT using one of the first release 12 x 10 S.E.F. coil's,,,,I could twist it in air and it would false and false on ground foliage also...Only other machine I ever saw do this exact same thing...

Must be coil design.........almost act's like it's seeing it's own field????

Not for sure if the new S.E.F.'S do this or not but the one I had on the MXT really added depth to the machine but also instability...

maybe they are making the coils especially hot for performance gain's?



Also one other thing is the small less than 2 inch long nails that are in within 1.5 inches of the coil high tone no matter what....this is causing concern when trying to pick in nail littered area's ( sound's like good target's everywhere)......larger iron is easier to discern it's the small iron that causes you to think it co-located target's..Small grunt= small ping worry's you....Large grunt smaller ping well you know it's larger iron falsing...

Just not right for tight hunting when most of the smaller nails are on the surface by natural occurrence ( Most site I hunt are littered with smaller surface nails!)

Looking like more time in the field is starting to show the quirk's

Thanks

Keith

Wow Keith, that is a deal breaker for some. Like I said on the Garrett forum, will raising the unit help to overcome this or will you lose too much depth?

It's for things like these that all detectors should just have a USB port attached, as opposed to having a recall or partial recall.

Let us know what happens and thanks for the frequent updates.

Keith,

Can you get in touch with Vaughan Garrett or ....especially Brent Weaver at Garrett? Sounds like it's time to get them involved. Too much potential in this new platform......to have a couple of small nuances fatally redirect its future.

............also, you are dealing with two independent issues....unrelated to each other.

From looking at your videos I don't know why you would choose the AT over the GBSE.??? The GBSE looks like it does a fine job at relic hunting in nails and trash. Am I missing something?

Julien

jbow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From looking at your videos I don't know why you
> would choose the AT over the GBSE.??? The GBSE
> looks like it does a fine job at relic hunting in
> nails and trash. Am I missing something?
>
> Julien


Just from looking at the videos there are a few things that might:

1. The tone roll on bottle caps - More important for coin hunters
2. The iron audio - that is a really interesting feature, especially for those with a good ear
3. I think the AT Pro probably gets better depth than the GBSE.
4. More options / modes to play with - but not a really big deal

not for sure if the nail and noise from coil is the same ????

Could be driving the coil pretty dang hot on transmit?

pretty sure the sens control's the receive side of the circuit...

A signal balance would be of help on the machine....


I can't figure out where manufacturer's get Field test done? The coil noise issue was something I caught right after putting it together.....So they must know it does it....???

not a big deal....But come on .....

Keith

nothing wrong with the GBSE great fantastic machine....But gotta always be on the lookout for something better....Relic's don't replenish themselves...Ha-Ha!!

I think the AT-Pro is a nice( great ) machine for "GARRETT" I wont say it's a world class unit but there platform hold's promise... It has astounding audio !! great mineral see through..
it's quirky and like I said from the beginning it's powerful and will cause some to hate it...

lot's of power has alway's made machine's tricky to hunt with...

There's some other thing's I don't like about the machine also and other thing's I love... But I will wait and see what come's of it before commenting any further in some other quirk's...there's enough people using them that they ought to figure them out...Maybe they will post up...

Machine is deeper than the GBSE in bad ground...( There I said it...) will it pick in iron better ?????Small nail issue...Better I.D. visually no...... Better I.D. Audibly Yes to a Trained ear...

Heck it's just a 600.00 machine that offer's alot...And I am sure it's just the begging of better thing's to come...

They need to get some people out in the field and get them to relay info to them ....

I for one like to get 2- 3 models of the same machine also so I really know how it's operating....you would not believe the differences from one machine to another...

Keith

to stop it.... It's just the close nail's and smaller one's at that...Must be something to do with it trying to look at small target's?? larger nail's are O.K...

It got great AUDIO!!!!!!

Keith

Keith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> to stop it.... It's just the close nail's and
> smaller one's at that...Must be something to do
> with it trying to look at small target's?? larger
> nail's are O.K...
>
> It got great AUDIO!!!!!!
>
> Keith

Wouldn't putting the iron audio on tell you those are nails that are shallow?

Thanks again

Keith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> is the wire when tapped really does not false
> ..barley touching or even passing the wire in
> front of the coil does not cause problems...
>
> Abrupt changes when swinging or twisting around
> obstacle does cause this....
>
> tapping bottom of coil will cause it low tone
> instead of high tone...
>
> Hitting brush( twig's,limb's,stubble ) causes high
> tones.. Right now it would be real hard to work in
> a overgrown type terrain....
>
> I have noticed this same scenario with an MXT
> using one of the first release 12 x 10 S.E.F.
> coil's,,,,I could twist it in air and it would
> false and false on ground foliage also...Only
> other machine I ever saw do this exact same
> thing...
>
> Must be coil design.........almost act's like it's
> seeing it's own field????
>
> Not for sure if the new S.E.F.'S do this or not
> but the one I had on the MXT really added depth to
> the machine but also instability...
>
> maybe they are making the coils especially hot
> for performance gain's?
>
>
>
> Also one other thing is the small less than 2 inch
> long nails that are in within 1.5 inches of the
> coil high tone no matter what....this is causing
> concern when trying to pick in nail littered
> area's ( sound's like good target's
> everywhere)......larger iron is easier to discern
> it's the small iron that causes you to think it
> co-located target's..Small grunt= small ping
> worry's you....Large grunt smaller ping well you
> know it's larger iron falsing...
>
> Just not right for tight hunting when most of the
> smaller nails are on the surface by natural
> occurrence ( Most site I hunt are littered with
> smaller surface nails!)
>
> Looking like more time in the field is starting to
> show the quirk's
>
> Thanks
>
> Keith


Keith is the coil bedded in epoxy? When White's first came out with the DD elliptic coil for the Goldmasters which do not use epoxy they had problems with the inserts that hold the windings in place that caused the same type of response when hitting twigs and rocks. Almost ruined my first trip to AZ for some nugget shooting.

The small nail response would cause me to hold off on the AT until fixed. Perhaps a smaller coil when available would help? Hard to say what they have done in software to handle the iron response, who knows it may require some changes in the code.

Putting the newer Tek's, Fisher's aside how does it compare to something like the ID Edge for iron handling? I'm really thinking hard about going back to that one for iron hunting along with the Omega of course.

Tom

Keith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> nothing wrong with the GBSE great fantastic
> machine....But gotta always be on the lookout for
> something better....Relic's don't replenish
> themselves...Ha-Ha!!
>
> I think the AT-Pro is a nice( great ) machine for
> "GARRETT" I wont say it's a world class unit but
> there platform hold's promise... It has astounding
> audio !! great mineral see through..
> it's quirky and like I said from the beginning
> it's powerful and will cause some to hate it...
>
> lot's of power has alway's made machine's tricky
> to hunt with...
>
> There's some other thing's I don't like about the
> machine also and other thing's I love... But I
> will wait and see what come's of it before
> commenting any further in some other
> quirk's...there's enough people using them that
> they ought to figure them out...Maybe they will
> post up...
>
> Machine is deeper than the GBSE in bad ground...(
> There I said it...) will it pick in iron better
> ?????Small nail issue...Better I.D. visually
> no...... Better I.D. Audibly Yes to a Trained
> ear...
>
> Heck it's just a 600.00 machine that offer's
> alot...And I am sure it's just the begging of
> better thing's to come...
>
> They need to get some people out in the field and
> get them to relay info to them ....
>
> I for one like to get 2- 3 models of the same
> machine also so I really know how it's
> operating....you would not believe the differences
> from one machine to another...
>
> Keith

Thanks Keith. I am going to keep on watching for a while... I already have so many detectors that if I get to wanting something new I can pull out one I haven't used in a while and it is sort of like a new detector, laff.

Does the HP jack being on the right rear bother you at all?

From looking at the videos it looks like to me that there is nothing to lock the upper and lower shafts together, looks like they just slide together and stay put with a button and a hole. Is this true, is it any problem?

You said: "It's just the close nail's and smaller one's at that...Must be something to do with it trying to look at small target's?? larger nail's are O.K... "

I see that on most detectors, square nails less than say 2" long (I call them cut sq nails) always seem to signal with a good tone and do not double beep. I haven't checked but it could be the ones that are really shallow... I just never thought to check but I bet it is the same thing.

One problem with "quirks" coming to light is that on some forums Garrett people seem so protective of the AT that I doubt if most of them will admit to any problem and it seems like if anyone has a concern they are a "hater". Maybe it will pass... and more people will be less biased about it.

I may buy one in the spring or when a good deal comes along on a good used one.

I almost forgot... one other thing concerns me, not for my hunting but in general... I wonder how many good targets/relics are going to be left in the ground because of "tone roll" audio. Maybe I am wrong but I think if it people rely on it a lot they will miss some good finds. I think I would only use it if I were hunting a vacant lot or yard with an area that is full of bottlecaps, otherwise i'd have to dig anyway... I am sure you do too.

I'd really like for you to try the "tone roll" on some relic targets and post what you find. I think some people, especially newbies will need to see that "tone roll" doesn't automatically mean "trash target". Just my opinion though and I may be wrong. I'd like to know though.

Thanks!

Julien



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2010 03:17PM by jbow.

the coil is embedded in epoxy...

I actually un-hooked the rod from the coil and wiggled it from the backside in the same rocking motion and it still falsed..



Comparing it to the Edge...that a tough one but I have lot's of hours on an edge and about a dozen on the At..

the Edge is an awesome detector in iron trash...really uncanny ability to pull low conductor's from iron....

the At-pro is a different approach in the digital world and it has some quirk's..

I believe you could learn to tune the iron false high tones out with your ear's...

at-pro does offer some nice depth but it's at the cost of discrimination..Sort of like a 1266 cz type scenario...

I would think in the 21st century we should be able to get away from that performance aspect....T-2 's are clean rejecter's of nails .. not even a peep..


I would not hesitate to have a edge as my only machine...

I just try machine's for fun..but I know what works also..( In my dirt)

Keith

While I don't mind the occasional deep rusty nail or iron splinter, hitting on every darn one because a disc circuit likes em is a pain.

Using the Omega and G2 in all metal at the beach is fun but there sure are differences in iron ID at depth between the two. The higher freq of the G2 intended for prospecting does not ID the iron as deep as the Omega and the difference on mid conductors say in the tab range isn't all that much. Mens wedding bands make up the bulk of my gold finds so the Omega makes hunting beaches with deeper iron much less of a chore in all metal and still gets the goodies.

Tom

Maybe someone can clear this up. If the AT Pro hits some very shallow nails as a high tone, wouldn't the iron audio show that it is iron by the width of the hit? Also, I know Keith is being honest, but I have not seen one other person complain about this and in a recent video there were nails laying on the top but I don't know how they hit. On the deep iron, wouldn't it be the same that you would hear it via the iron audio? Are people afraid to comment on the things they find wrong with it, like Julien alluded to? Weird.

Great description again Keith regarding the discrimination. You are really helping me to get a feel for the machine. Seems like the iron discrimination thing is a deal breaker with you, understandable.

As long as you are honest...........feel free to comment. Honest posts will not be deleted.

O.K' the nail issue .............

What I have determined is the smaller nails will high tone if they are laying ----------------I----------------- like this( North/South to your East/West sweep) turn a little either way and they go back to a good iron audio response..Just the smaller ones seem to high tone though longer ones act normal...

Here's how I came about even noticing it...In the video I did of the attributes of the AT I show a nail laying on top of a roll of tape so it provides an air gap between the nail and button...

Airgap's are important because it re-create's an more in ground scenario ...most object's don't touch in the ground ....Well I took it a step further and placed the button on the ground then took a 7 inch tall glass and set it up side down over the button and lay a nail on top...well to my amazement it hit high tone...then I lay a another then another and finally 4 nails on top of the bottom of the glass and still ping high tone...For a minute I was bewildered then rational thinking came back and I removed the button from under the nail's and I was still getting the high tone..started removing nails one at a time in reverse till down to one and high tone every time...

now with one nail laying east/west and sweeping east/west perfect iron tone but the nail laying N/S and being swept E/W high tone ping with the low roll on either end of sweep ...(the nail with air gap over the button in my video when retried signaled slightly high tone without the button under it when I retried it...... albeit the button under it does enhance the signal..but go E/W over the nail air gap button with a E/W swing and it just grunt's)

Now you can rely on the iron growl on the edges and hear the middle ping...( And I might add it's a washy type high tone when it hit's) but in a bed of nails when the main purpose is looking for masked items it can make one become very unsettled...

and this bring's us to the question Jbow asked about ...Does the At-Pro signal low tone growl on edges of a good target??? and it does especially in bad dirt...I see buried button's 6 inch's deep signal with the iron grunt before and after the high tone...

So now you see the dilemma ....especially on smaller target's............................ larger targets (Of Iron) and higher conductor's are more workable..

you can adapt to the situation ..but It does cause concern to a degree...

Earthman asked why hasn't anyone else mentioned this? Maybe they ignore the high hit's focusing more on the stronger hit's or they have not been in an area with surface nail's? not alot of At's out right now..

I could ignore the high false on certain oriented nails but My places are picked clean and in my style of hunting those co-located hit's drive me to investigate on most machine's..


At-Pro has great audio but lack's surgical abilities in this one certain area...Now you have to remember this is just my way of hunting and someone else might not be bothered ..

I have the luxury to check lot's of signal's in my spot's since they are deep wood's camp's and house site's so I chase a lot of clippy type hit's ..And that is the way I have found to produce artifact's from well hunted site's..( But that's me and everyone hunt's different and want's something different from a detector)

So for me it could be better regulated to an open field hunter with it's excellent depth and all terrain package...Again I think the machine is more of a dig all type detector in the pro mode..with some good large iron identification...

They exact way I want to run the machine I am not sure the engineer's who designed it was thinking of such tactic's...Machine gun iron hunting takes a certain detector and alot of patience!!

Don't base your purchase decision on my thought's too much because I look at one or two aspect's and that's it...


Any clearer...Heck I doubt it Ha-Ha

Keith

To do a thorough and comprehensive report on a unit is NOT easy. This is the exact reasoning/justification as to why I think a lot of these upper-end units should include professional training. For many reasons......this would help corporate 'image'.....to great magnitude. . . . . to the point of making a specific metal detector (and associated company) into 'professional' status. (Not just a 'toy'......not just a 'hobby').