Fors Relic and square nails

I did some testing today trying to eliminate the nails and other iron giving false high tones in the ground. (out of the ground they go low tone)

In my ground, an IMASK setting of 5 or 6 gets rid of most all of those pesky false high tone signals. (Ground balance is 78 at one site and 85 at the other)
It works best in DI2 or SWT and OK in DI3 and DEEP. With these high IMASK settings, I can actually use the machine and not go crazy from all the false chatter.

-Don

Strange, isn't it? How different a detector can act in various soil conditions. My ground balances at 85 here. The composition of our soils must be vastly different. Also interesting is, what drives one guy crazy about a detector is normal to the next guy...thank goodness we have lots of detector choices! Thanks for reporting your findings regarding the iMask setting. Very interesting. I'm guessing you must have a lot of magnetic soil there? The iMask setting must help to dial it out. HH

Dean

Dean,

What State do you detect in?

I do have a lot of magnetite and hematite in my soil.
There are quite a few hot rocks both large & small.(usually basalt)
I think this causes a lot of grief for the Relic's discrimination.
The Gold Racer handles my ground much better but that machine was designed for high mineralization I believe.

-Don

Do you use the iMASK and ID Filter in unison??

Try some ID Filter first about minimum 3 and if its still noisy bring up the iMASK..the iMASK works well to reduce or eliminate Hot rocks..

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Keith,

Yes, in this test I was at an ID Filter of 80. I was only testing on high tone coins vs nails.
It seems to work pretty good with IMASK of 5 or 6.
I think it's costing me some depth. I am going to play around with it some more when I have time.

I know on the Gold Racer when I move the IMASK up the target ID is a bit less stable.
I am still learning the Relic and what works best in my area.

Thanks,
Don



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2016 02:09AM by Don71.

That iMASK is there for when you need it..

It adds some filter to the circuit but not extravagant

at least its an option..

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Don,
I live in AZ.
I do a lot of detector prospecting here. Learned on the good old Gold Bug 2. Talk about a hot machine!
How do you like the Gold Racer? Are you prospecting with it?


Dean

Dean,

I like the Gold Racer a lot! Actually, it's the Nokta AU Gold Finder which is just the Gold Racer circuit inside a Gold Bug looking box.
It's very hot on tiny gold and works as advertised.

I use the Minelab pulse machines for gold prospecting/mining usually. (Minelab SD2100V2 or SDC 2300, I used to use the GPX-5000)
I bought the AU Gold Finder to clean up tiny pickers on cleared off bedrock and to scan quartz for specimens the pulse machines miss.

I was out testing the Fors Relic again today.
I had to lower the IMASK to 4 to get coins to sound off decently.
No matter what setting, when I scan a dime in air I get a target ID of 80.
When I bury the dime about 3 inches down it has a Target ID of 98.
The Fors Relic is a difficult beast.

-Don

I use the SDC-2300 as my main go to prospecting unit as Central AZ. is fairly shallow ground. I just surpassed the 1oz. mark with it. So far it's earning it's keep.

Where do you live and prospect?

Your experience with the Relic seems odd to me. You either have some very difficult ground or something's wrong with the machine still.(?)

Well, I'm headed out to the gold fields right now. Gotta go. Good luck.

Dean

Dean,

I live in Washington State.

There might be something wrong with this unit as well.
Serial number ending in 3098, I think this is #98 off the production line.
My first unit was Serial # 3018 and had 3" less on air tests over this 3098 unit.

It does seem very odd the way it doesn't work well at any setting.
(My DI3 can't even pick up a 3" dime when in the ground. DI2 & Deep hit it hard but wrong target ID that matches all the iron nail false ID's. I can raise IMask above 4 to kill the iron falsing but then the coin signals are almost gone.)
I suspect there are a lot of people out there that feel the same way.
There seem to be very few people getting good results from the silence on the forums. You seem to have a goood working machine. I think Nokta made sure the field testers got "hand picked" good & hot machines to sing praise and sell units.

I have used the Xterra 705, Gold Bug Pro, and F19 without problems. (and others)
At this point, I consider the Relic a $700 waste of money.

-Don

My Relic serial # is 3024. Iv'e been very pleased with the two Nokta units that I have.
As stable as mine runs, based on my experience with the two of mine being great machines, I think I would send yours back again. Something's not right.

Chris Gholson and I went for a short afternoon hunt today. He used his 5000 and I used my SDC. He scored seven nuggets and I scored six. Not bad for a few hours hunt. Getting too hot already. It was 90+*.

Anyway, keep us posted as to your decision regarding the Relic. Nokta is a great company for making things right. I'm sure that they will treat you well.

Good Luck!

Dean

Don71 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dean,
>
> I live in Washington State.
>
> There might be something wrong with this unit as
> well.
> Serial number ending in 3098, I think this is #98
> off the production line.
> My first unit was Serial # 3018 and had 3" less on
> air tests over this 3098 unit.
>
> It does seem very odd the way it doesn't work well
> at any setting.
> (My DI3 can't even pick up a 3" dime when in the
> ground. DI2 & Deep hit it hard but wrong target ID
> that matches all the iron nail false ID's. I can
> raise IMask above 4 to kill the iron falsing but
> then the coin signals are almost gone.)
> I suspect there are a lot of people out there that
> feel the same way.
> There seem to be very few people getting good
> results from the silence on the forums. You seem
> to have a goood working machine. I think Nokta
> made sure the field testers got "hand picked" good
> & hot machines to sing praise and sell units.
>
> I have used the Xterra 705, Gold Bug Pro, and F19
> without problems. (and others)
> At this point, I consider the Relic a $700 waste
> of money.
>
> -Don

Don,,
I am following this thread on occasion. Never owned or run a Nokta Relic,,,but is your soil highly minerlized in your area where you live and or detect???

Sharpshooter,

Yes, my ground is mineralized and I ground balance at 85 in my backyard.
It could be that the Relic cannot handle the ground well here.

Today, I buried a dime in a new location at 3" down.
Ground balance at 85 and I can get correct target ID most of the time. (least jumpy in DI2)
I also tried a 5" deep dime but with the small coil you wouldn't dig it, sounds scratchy like trash.
This is the maximum detection depth of my F19.

(This new spot was soil only, no small pebbles.)


My Gold Racer at 56 Khz hits on the 3" dime harder than the Relic.
I find that disturbing. The Gold Racer was also getting an intermittent signal on a 5" dime.(This was using the 5" round coil)

Dean,
I am going to buy a Racer 2 to compare to the Relic before I contact Nokta again.
There is no use sending it back if all Relics are this way in my ground.

Funny, I was talking to Chris Gholson on the phone the other day.
He said he was going to ask his friend if he was having these problems with the Relic.
I didn't know he was talking about you.

-Don

Don71 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sharpshooter,
>
> Yes, my ground is mineralized and I ground balance
> at 85 in my backyard.
> It could be that the Relic cannot handle the
> ground well here.
>
> Today, I buried a dime in a new location at 3"
> down.
> Ground balance at 85 and I can get correct target
> ID most of the time. (least jumpy in DI2)
> I also tried a 5" deep dime but with the small
> coil you wouldn't dig it, sounds scratchy like
> trash.
> This is the maximum detection depth of my F19.
>
> (This new spot was soil only, no small pebbles.)
>
>
> My Gold Racer at 56 Khz hits on the 3" dime harder
> than the Relic.
> I find that disturbing. The Gold Racer was also
> getting an intermittent signal on a 5" dime.(This
> was using the 5" round coil)
>
> Dean,
> I am going to buy a Racer 2 to compare to the
> Relic before I contact Nokta again.
> There is no use sending it back if all Relics are
> this way in my ground.
>
> Funny, I was talking to Chris Gholson on the phone
> the other day.
> He said he was going to ask his friend if he was
> having these problems with the Relic.
> I didn't know he was talking about you.
>
> -Don


Thanks Don.

Don,

How funny is that! Small world. I'll let Chris know that you and I have been chatting about the Relic. Chris is a great guy and runs an excellent operation.

We shot some video of our hunt today today. Hopefully, we got some decent footage.

I think your idea of getting the Racer 2 first is a good one. Then go from there. You may need to go a different route all together. I wouldn't mind getting a Racer 2 myself. So many choices! Good problem to have.

Best of Luck!

Dean



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2016 03:51AM by bado1.

Hi Don and Dean,
I am having the same troubles with my FR. Some days it runs like a dream and other days when it's hot outside 70° on up the ID jumps all over. My GB is anywhere from 65-79 so not quite as hot as yours . I've tried every setting with IMASK 0 to 6 and is the same.

High gain machines don't run like Minelabs gents. They spark and sputter and show a lot of stuff in the ground most other machines do not see except to mask them from seeing good targets. The TID is going to jump all around per it is seeing stuff your other machines don't. However the other machines won't see whats hiding in these places either.

Preston,

I will try putting my machine in the fridge!
You never know, electronic components are funny sometimes.
(I actually used to work in the electronic components industry.)

Every day has been in the 70's to 90's here.

-Don

Where I live here in Utah it's 30 degrees in the morning and has been getting up I'm 70's lately I don't know if I should send my machine back to be tested or just keep trying to figure it out.

Quote
Don71
I air test my machines out on my gold claims far, far away from interference.
I already sent my machine back. It had other problems like target separation. I could put a nail and quarter 4" apart and they would blend. As soon as I saw this ID smearing, I packed it up. My Au gold finder/gold racer can separate targets no problem.

I trust that was taken care of because my FORS CoRe, Gold + and Relic and Racer 2 and Gold Racer are all very comparable quick-response, rapid-recovery performers.

Quote
Don71
Keith,

I think I would be more into digging all non-ferrous if I lived on or closer to the East Coast. Here in Washington State, the relics are not as good.

Yes, the “East Coast” (of the USA) can have some older dated artifacts than “Out West” as long as the areas haven’t been built over or ruined. Much of what Keith and others are after date to the period just before, during and after the Civil War, but there are some older site opportunities, if you can find them.

I am a Utah native but have spent almost 57 years of my life in Oregon, your southern neighbor. I have found 2 Large Cents in Utah through the years, but 6 here in Oregon. The bulk of my oldest coins, including a Capped Bust Half-Dime, all my 2¢, 3¢, Half-Dime pieces have also come from Utah and Nevada, but I have had better site opportunities than I had in Oregon.

Still, I have recovered a lot of Seated Liberty and Barber silver coins, Shield & ‘V’ nickels and Indian Head cents here in Oregon. Nothing near what the ghost towns of Utah, Nevada and Wyoming have produced for me, but again, I hunted the other places far more often.

I haven’t found nearly as many silver Dollar coins in Oregon, but I know I hit #17 just a year ago so Oregon, and I am sure Washington, have some potential. You just have to find it. Location, Location, Location … that’s the key.

Other 'relics’ include old Trade Tokens, buttons, bullets, cartridge cases and complete cartridges, thimbles, badges, old toys and all sorts of ‘keepers.’

Quote
Don71
I thought about the Racer 2 over the Fors Relic but is there much difference for a coin hunter?

If I am going out for some ‘traditional’ Coin Hunting around city locations, I grab my Racer 2, and use the 7X11 if the site is pretty clean and any metal targets are well spaced, but I most often use the round 5½” DD (or an ‘OOR’ coil) because I hunt in and around trashier conditions.

That’s not to say the FORS Relic isn’t a Coin & Jewelry Hunting unit because it is … and it does quite well. You just have to select the best search coil, search mode, and settings for the environment you are hunting.

Quote
Don71
Thanks Keith, do you get the sporadic high tone false signals on your relic?

I know the F19 is not very deep. That's why I have been in search of a new detector.
It does well in the first 4-5" of depth. I wish it punched deeper.

Well, I’m not Keith, but I had two F19’s and let both of the go for several reasons related to unfriendly performance, and lack of depth on higher-conductive targets was one of them. I went to the FORS CoRe and it far surpassed the performance I had been getting from my MXT All-Pro, F19, and a few other makes and models.

The FORS Relic has been working excellent for me, but most of the time I hunt very iron littered sites …. very iron littered! The Relic does a fantastic job of unmasking keepers in nasty debris, but you have to know the settings, use a small coil, and work it slowly and methodically.

As for ‘coin depth,’ the Relic is doing just fine. I have pulled Indian Head cents and Barber dimes and a Buffalo Nickel from 4” to 6½-7” depths in ghost towns and iron littered renovation sites. More modern coins in manicured/renovated parks have come from about 10” for a Quarter, and Pennies, Dimes and Nickels have ranged from shallow/surface finds to the 8”-9” depth range, depending upon the coil used.

Quote
Don71
Dean,
What State do you detect in?

I do have a lot of magnetite and hematite in my soil.
There are quite a few hot rocks both large & small.(usually basalt)
I think this causes a lot of grief for the Relic's discrimination.
The Gold Racer handles my ground much better but that machine was designed for high mineralization I believe.

-Don

This is Monte, and I live in Vale in far Eastern Oregon, and I have a short drive to four different ghost towns that date to 1863 for the oldest. Three of them are gold mining towns where the nastiest trash is rusty tin. The Ground Phase in my yard ranges from ‘77’ to ‘85’ and the old town sites I hunt the ground phase can be up to ‘87+.’ Many of the locations I work a detector have a hot rock infestation and the Relic, Racer 2 and other FORS/Racer series models handle things quite well.

Quote
Don71

Dean,

I like the Gold Racer a lot! Actually, it's the Nokta AU Gold Finder which is just the Gold Racer circuit inside a Gold Bug looking box.
It's very hot on tiny gold and works as advertised.

I bought the AU Gold Finder to clean up tiny pickers on cleared off bedrock and to scan quartz for specimens the pulse machines miss.

I was out testing the Fors Relic again today.
I had to lower the IMASK to 4 to get coins to sound off decently.
No matter what setting, when I scan a dime in air I get a target ID of 80.
When I bury the dime about 3 inches down it has a Target ID of 98.
The Fors Relic is a difficult beast.

-Don

Interesting. I really enjoy my Gold Racer, but it’s strength is dealing with tiny specimens. It doesn’t handle dense mineral bodies as well as the Racer 2, FORS CoRe, FORS Gold + or FORS Relic models, but it is certainly hot on the tiny specimens.

I don’t know the settings used, sweep speed used, or site environment you’re checking the coin at, but remember the ground mineral can effect target detection and Target ID, especially on a fresh-buried coin with disturbed ground. If in highly mineralized ground it is important to keep the Discrimination as low as possible, and make sure the GB is ‘spot on’ or maybe even a little more positive with the Racer and FORS series models.

Quote
Don71
I live in Washington State.

There might be something wrong with this unit as well.
Serial number ending in 3098, I think this is #98 off the production line.
My first unit was Serial # 3018 and had 3" less on air tests over this 3098 unit.

If you’re going by the last four numbers (and there are more that could make it different), my first ‘prototype’ that was later named FORS Relic has a lower serial number. My ‘production’ Relic has a higher serial number, but they all work as they should and I don’t have any of the issues you mention.

Quote
Don71
It does seem very odd the way it doesn't work well at any setting.
(My DI3 can't even pick up a 3" dime when in the ground. DI2 & Deep hit it hard but wrong target ID that matches all the iron nail false ID's. I can raise IMask above 4 to kill the iron falsing but then the coin signals are almost gone.)

Di2 and Deep are the deeper-seeking modes at the default Sensitivity. Di3 is the weakest mode at default Sensitivity. I have my FORS Relic set at ‘99’ Sensitivity in Di3, and reduce it only if necessary due to EMI or other must-do reasons.

I don’t have a problem rejecting iron nails, audibly, in any of the 2-Tone modes, but your results can depend upon your various settings. Some iron nails might give a periodic higher high VDI Numeric read-out and audio response, in the upper ‘90s’ range, but many detectors can do that. The cause, one of them, is the head of the nail being perpendicular to the body length of the nail. We also see it occur with very bent nails and other ferrous object shapes.

Naturally, the ID Mask (Discrimination) setting plays an important role in rejecting problem iron debris. Nails are not much of a problem in any of the 2-Tone Discriminate modes, but more challenging ferrous junk, like rusty tin, bottle caps, and other annoying objects man shaped out of a magnetic metal (iron, steel, nickel) are going to be more difficult to learn to deal with.

The simple way is to increase the Discrimination level to the point you just barely reject the problem iron junk. To also audibly help classify problem ferrous targets is to use the Di3 /3-Tone search mode. It is easier to hear the sometimes pronounced and sometimes subtle iron audio blending with the mid-tone or high-tone audio response.

Quote
Don71
I suspect there are a lot of people out there that feel the same way.
There seem to be very few people getting good results from the silence on the forums. You seem to have a goood working machine. I think Nokta made sure the field testers got "hand picked" good & hot machines to sing praise and sell units.

Well, I get PM’s and e-mails from quite a few folks who have acquired a FORS series model, to include the new Relic, and they have great things to say about them. I only see incidental things pop up, and sometimes those have been simply human error and misunderstanding of how these models work compared with what they were used to.

I can’t speak for all of the product evaluators, but I know some of us received an initial sample, and our mission was to check it out and let them know about the strengths, but especially convey any weakness or feature/function that we felt ought to be addressed.

The fixed/default Audio Search Tone, VCO audio, and Sensitivity in the Di3/3-Tone mode were some of the main points we felt needed to be addressed. They listen and took our e-mail conversations into R&D, Alper worked on the prototype, quickly, we were then provided a new control housing and we agreed they had it right. From that the FORS Relic was born … and exciting finds have been coming my way ever since I started the evaluation.

We didn’t get any ‘hand-picked’ or ‘specially selected’ models out of a production run. Instead, the Nokta Detectors Team worked with what they had initially provided, enhanced the functions/features we agreed needed to be addressed, and from that the Relic was produced, just the same as the revised prototype we received. My production run Relic matches the prototype revision almost exactly.

If it wasn’t a good working unit, we would have told them and others after the product release. But what we have in the FORS Relic is an exceptional working detector that impressed me from the get-go with the ability to hunt well in dense iron debris, and to unmask keepers better than other detectors.

Quote
Don71
I have used the Xterra 705, Gold Bug Pro, and F19 without problems. (and others)
At this point, I consider the Relic a $700 waste of money.

-Don

I have had the X-Terra 70, used some 705’s, had the Gold Bug pro and G2 (same detector) and two F19’s. None of them were/are a match for the field results I get from my Relic models. I think you might just need to double check and see if it really has a design glitch, or if it is more a matter of settings, search coil presentation, and just learning and mastering the Relic.

I know a few guys, like me, who would like to have a 2nd FORS Relic in their arsenal, so if it isn’t a good ‘fit’ for you, shoot me an e-mail.

Quote
Don71
Sharpshooter,

Yes, my ground is mineralized and I ground balance at 85 in my backyard.
It could be that the Relic cannot handle the ground well here.

My yard varies from ‘77’ to ‘85.60’ and many sites I work get to ‘87+’ and I haven’t had a lack of ability for the Relic to challenge ‘bad ground.’ It does a little better in very mineralized rocky areas than the Gold Racer, but the Gold racer suffers due to the Low Frequency operating range.

Quote
Don71
Today, I buried a dime in a new location at 3" down.
Ground balance at 85 and I can get correct target ID most of the time. (least jumpy in DI2)
I also tried a 5" deep dime but with the small coil you wouldn't dig it, sounds scratchy like trash.
This is the maximum detection depth of my F19.

(This new spot was soil only, no small pebbles.)

As I have mentioned, I have located silver and clad Dimes, Indian Head and early Wheat-Back Cents and Buffalo Nickels at and beyond 5” with the round 5” DD coil. Deeper targets will struggle to produce a consistent TID, but they are findable with the Relic and smaller coil.

Quote
Don71
My Gold Racer at 56 Khz hits on the 3" dime harder than the Relic.
I find that disturbing. The Gold Racer was also getting an intermittent signal on a 5" dime.(This was using the 5" round coil)

If the settings were very comparable, and using the same size/type search coil, it would surprise me as well. My Gold Racer is impressive, but the FORS Relic can match or better it on most common Coin Hunting targets.

Quote
Don71
Dean,
I am going to buy a Racer 2 to compare to the Relic before I contact Nokta again.
There is no use sending it back if all Relics are this way in my ground.

Funny, I was talking to Chris Gholson on the phone the other day.
He said he was going to ask his friend if he was having these problems with the Relic.
I didn't know he was talking about you.

-Don

It will be good to hear what you think of the Racer 2. They are kind of the same, but they are also kind of different, even when the settings are comparable. They are different enough that it justifies having both the Relic and Racer 2 in my primary-use detector battery.

Quote
Preston2784
Hi Don and Dean,
I am having the same troubles with my FR. Some days it runs like a dream and other days when it's hot outside 70° on up the ID jumps all over. My GB is anywhere from 65-79 so not quite as hot as yours . I've tried every setting with IMASK 0 to 6 and is the same.

What settings do you usually use on the FORS Relic?

Quote
Preston2784
Where I live here in Utah it's 30 degrees in the morning and has been getting up I'm 70's lately I don't know if I should send my machine back to be tested or just keep trying to figure it out.

I am headed to Ogden, Utah early tomorrow morning (the 16th) and then on to Wells, Nevada for a 4-day Welcome-to-Hunt Outing. I was back in Ogden about 3-4 weeks ago and the Relic continued to work very well. A lot depends upon settings and operation, especially the Discriminate mode chosen for the type of trash at a site.

What part of Utah are you in? (An e-mail would be fine to let me know.)

Monte

Thanks for the detailed responses Monte. I know that others are having the same problems in the other thread here. I don't know what to think. Your experience is completely different from mine. I contacted Nokta to see what is going on, bad machine again or bad ground here throwing the machine off??? I will see what they say. I could ship you the control box to see if something is wrong with it. (or sell it) -Don

Don,

If you would like to ship the control housing to me I would be more than happy to check it out for you, comparing it against at least two other FORS Relic models. If you would like to do that, just e-mail me at: monte@ahrps.org and I will get back to you quickly.

I just worked with a fellow yesterday who has been having difficulty with his competitor unit and bottle caps. As I explained and demonstrated to him with the other brand and with the Relic, CoRe, and Racer 2 models, it is a matter of settings and search mode, then using sweep techniques to 'classify' the problem bottle cap targets. It's pretty easy and I've been using this technique for over 40 years now.

The Relic continues to perform quite well for me and I would like it to for you as well. I'll check it out if you send it.

Monte

Hello Monte,

I sent you an email.

Thanks,
Don

Don71 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for the detailed responses Monte. I know
> that others are having the same problems in the
> other thread here. I don't know what to think.
> Your experience is completely different from mine.
> I contacted Nokta to see what is going on, bad
> machine again or bad ground here throwing the
> machine off??? I will see what they say. I could
> ship you the control box to see if something is
> wrong with it. (or sell it) -Don

Don, we got your email and I prefer to respond to you thru the forum so others can see our response.
If you can, send us a field test video showing all your settings and we can check it for you.
Please note though results can vary a lot based on many different factors including EMI, environmental conditions, ground, mineralization etc etc...the results may not be even the same during different hours of the day in the same area. Please also note though these are very high gain devices unlike some of the other models in the market so it may take some time to master its responses.
In any case, if you can show us some of the issues you are describing in a video, that would help us a lot. If indeed there is an issue, we are behind the product, no worries.

Monte Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don,
>
> If you would like to ship the control housing to
> me I would be more than happy to check it out for
> you, comparing it against at least two other FORS
> Relic models. If you would like to do that, just
> e-mail me at: monte@ahrps.org and I will get back
> to you quickly.
>
> I just worked with a fellow yesterday who has been
> having difficulty with his competitor unit and
> bottle caps. As I explained and demonstrated to
> him with the other brand and with the Relic, CoRe,
> and Racer 2 models, it is a matter of settings and
> search mode, then using sweep techniques to
> 'classify' the problem bottle cap targets. It's
> pretty easy and I've been using this technique for
> over 40 years now.
>
> The Relic continues to perform quite well for me
> and I would like it to for you as well. I'll
> check it out if you send it.
>
> Monte

Very gentlemanly of you here, Monte.
Kudos

Hello Dilek, (at Nokta)

I am going to have Monte evaluate my machine first vs his known good Relic.
If he finds that something is different from his units, I will let you know & make a video.

Thanks for your response!

-Don