New Fisher Manta

Badger in NH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They should make both waterproof and non-waterproo
> f versions because most buyers of this machine wil
> l not be submerging it. A non-waterproof version w
> ould cost a lot less.

Since this is a beach machine, waterproof is a must. I think we should expect all machines to be waterproof up to 10ft now since the nox pretty much made that standard. Now waterproof for diving vs 10ft is another story.

_________________________________

Nox600, CTX, CZ21, Excal II and White's DF with 920i stealthscoop...I live and hunt at the beach in Wilm NC

LE.JAG wrotef course you can detect silver
in all metals mode
on the last hunts / got many silver ring
and a big chain of 62 gr in 925

I should have been more clear. I didn't mean in all metal.

Elbert Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> LE.JAG wrotef course you can detect silver
> in all metals mode
> on the last hunts / got many silver ring
> and a big chain of 62 gr in 925
>
> I should have been more clear. I didn't mean in al
> l metal.


it is an optimal detector for gold (and platinum)
therefore low conductors

silver is a very high conductor / it is not possible to detect it in reject mode

you have to turn to a multifrequency
but you will be twice, less deep / minimum
on a gold ring ...


+ for other PI coils
yes in theory, they will work
but the performance loss will be more than 40%

the design of the coil, manta is complex
and contributes largely to the performance (sensitivity and silence of operation)

if you give me permission .... I will put pictures
of the process

One comment to LE JAG's post above, when he wrote...

you have to turn to a multifrequency
but you will be twice, less deep / minimum
on a gold ring ...

He means that if you want traditional discrimination in a beach machine, you have to use a multifrequency detector like a CZ, a BBS/FBS machine - or the latest variant of that, the Equinox. He then goes on to point out that if you use one to these, you will then loose half the maximum depth on a gold ring compared to a Manta.

LE JAG has stated several times that his main hunting mode is all metal. This is the deepest mode of operation for the Manta, the discrimination modes give up a small percentage of depth (I think I red somewhere it was in the neighborhood of 10% - I could be mistaken) - and he is out after gold jewelry which is deep in relation to it's size/weight - jewelry which has been lying there waiting because it was not detectable by any previous beach detector.

The discrimination function of the Manta works on the same principle as the earlier Eric Foster PI's like the Goldscan 4 and 5 series and the TDI. The ground balance control can be manipulated to "subtract" target returns of a certain type, based on their time constant. Basically giving the ability to distinguish between targets with a very fast signal decay (low conductors) and targets with a longer signal delay (high conductors).

Although the system in the Manta is quite different than the TDI in its effects - because it is optimized for gold jewelry hunting, the basic principle remains. In all metal you hear all targets. As you increase the "discrimination" (which is an adjustment of the "balance point") high conductors are separated from low ones. Most iron and most silver fall into the high conductor area - therefore if you use the "iron cut" setting where no signal - or a broken up one is returned from iron, silver targets other high conductors will give the same results. In the "multitude" mode of discrimination, low conductors (gold jewelry, etc.) gives a solid high tone and high conductors give a "whoop-whoop" sort of tone.

Again, this is a result of the method used to produce the "balance point" which is used to produce iron ID.

For me, finding clad pocket money at the beach is a distraction ranking just above pull tabs when the real goal is gold jewelry. The chances of pre-clad US silver coinage at the beach is likely low to begin with and if you think that the conditions are good for finding it, you can still hunt in all metal. anything that old might well be deep and in that case no existing beach detector is likely to give a good ID on it anyway.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/2018 05:14PM by lytle78.

I would like to see those pictures if it is ok with Tom Dankowski.

I'm ok with it; yet, it would also be prudent to acquire a 'go-ahead' from Carl. NEVER leave him out of the equation!

lytle78 Wrote:
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> The chances of pre-clad US silver coinage at the beach is likely low to
> begin with

Not really. Depends on the beach. There are beaches here in NJ that with a nice Noreaster, silver coinage is found consistently. Finding gold at these beaches also becomes easier with a nice storm. Now, if hunting the beaches here in normal conditions, fresh drop gold jewelry is probably an easier target since the silver coinage is deeper.

An inland lake beach...totally different story.

As always, location and conditions factor into the equation and hold much more weight than any technology or detector does.

I continually see guys picking up gold jewelry and silver coinage and posting pics on websites and these guys are using a multitude of detectors to do so. Their secret...they got a good location and good conditions.

Needless to say, any unit that is hotter on gold and deeper than current units, that is waterproof to where one can give it a fresh water bath after a day in salt water conditions and can stand up to the wear and tear of salt water beach hunting, is a winner in my book.

I think LE JAG meant he needed permission from Fisher.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

therover61 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> lytle78 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > The chances of pre-clad US silver coinage at the beach is likely low to begin with
>
> Not really. Depends on the beach. There are beaches here in NJ that with a nice Noreaster, silver coinage is found consistently. Finding gold at these beaches also becomes easier with a nice storm. Now if hunting the beaches here in normal conditions, fresh drop gold jewelry is probably an easier target since the silver coinage is deeper.

That's the case on the west coast as well, given the right erosion events, it can be plentiful, but the odds of finding numismatically redeemable salt water beach silver coins is about as high as winning the lottery.

We used to routinely get $10 to $15 in fresh clad in a few hours at the beach after a storm. Now the only clad we see is so old and crusty that most of it can't be spent. In a few more years, clad will be rare at the beach.

.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/2018 09:45PM by Badger in NH.

How does the Manta do on rusty bottle caps?

Badger in NH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We used to routinely get $10 to $15 in fresh clad
> in a few hours at the beach after a storm. Now the
> only clad we see is so old and crusty that most of
> it can't be spent. In a few more years, clad will
> be rare at the beach.
>
> .


No more parking meters that accept change. What we need is coins instead of paper money.

Discriminates high conductors, what a downer. Yes gold is the prize targets but I can say some of my beach finds have being silver, living in Europe I have had Tudor silver jewellery and bronze age items on beaches. In fact when I am out beach detecting I purposely look for older coppers and silvery, why? because then I know I am in the right area to find gold. Lets face it, if the Manta is going to reject these targets, we will not dig them and you will never know if you are hunting in the right places.

The next question is where is the cut off point, what is the response on high carat gold, ie 22 and above? Will smaller iron still come through? I guess the Manta will go deeper than a TDI but the dilemma is, is it worth offloading a TDI for a Manta if you are just going to end up hunting in all metal? I am beginning to think this discriminating PI sounds like it is to good to be true.

Cal_cobra Wrote:

> That's the case on the west coast as well, given t
> he right erosion events, it can be plentiful, but
> the odds of finding numismatically redeemable salt
> water beach silver coins is about as high as winni
> ng the lottery.

Us North East beach hunters do have it a bit easier when it comes to finding silver coins on the beach after a storm. Hundreds of years of history and boardwalk silver shows up (along with lots of wonderful dune fencing, fishing lures and junk). Most is beat up, but you would be surprised at some of the coins and how well they are preserved. Some must have been buried for decades and never got into the churning surf to get beat up until a major storm lifts them up and deposits them high in the wet sand.

Whenever a nice storm rolls through and the conditions are right, 10-15 silvers along with lots of clad can be had. But only on certain beaches. At the end of the day, it all gets cleaned, the clad changed into paper and then the paper and silver beach coins get taken to my coin dealer for a nice new shiny American Silver Eagle or Morgan Dollar...sometimes more than one if the day was good.

I love converting clad and worn out silver coins into silver bullion or VF+ Morgan Dollars.

The more I read on this, the more I stand by my statement that it sounds more and more like a Whites TDI that plays off of the conductivity switch.

On that machine, if it was GBed properly, nails and high conductors sounded very similar. So similar in fact, that many people could not tell the difference between a nail and a high conductor target after many hours of use. BUT....low conductors were easy as pie to pick out. Thus for Civil War relics, the TDI became known as the button digging machine....buttons being low conductive. People would grow frustrated trying to dig high conductors and would flip the machine into LOW conductive just to hear those signals, and their small brass count sky rocketed by doing it.

This machine sounds like a tweaked version of that...with the focus being on low conductors (gold).

(deleted)

My YouTube - [www.youtube.com]
Website - [www.thehuntergt.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2018 03:11AM by TheHunterGT.

much to learn, and nothing to learn it from - yet, but folks who have used it - one so far - and all of us who read the tea leaves.

Is it just a development of Eric Foster's Goldscan series - of which the Whites TDI was the only real commercial offering? Yes. the key question is - How developed is It?

Will it have VLF IB type discrimination? Almost certainly not. Noone on the development side has claimed anything like that.

So what is it - and why does it exist?

Gold.

Minelab does not apologize for charging around $5k for their gold machine. A machine which most of its users will find a few ounces (at most) of gold with in their whole ownership. Not po poo-poo that, but let's have some perspective.

LE JAG, the chief tester of the Manta prototypes reported this week that on his beach trip last weekend he equalled his haul from 2 weeks ago - 23 grams of 18kt gold.

Could an experienced hunter like him have done it with any of the other dozen machines he has used - maybe - but he isn't using them - he's using a Manta. Why?

As Lady Bird Johnson used to say "You dance with them that brung you". Pick a machine. Use the heck out of it - become an expert.

This will be a new tool - some will love it, some will be confused, some will be disappointed - such is the way of the world.

Me, I'm getting one. I hate pennies, dimes, quarters - I throw all mine into Coinstar and good riddance. I want gold. I am willing to dig some nasty round ferrous bits like bottle caps if I can hear head sweet deep faint round sound of a long lost gold ring. that's the promise - we will see if it can be kept.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2018 03:12AM by lytle78.

HunterGT -- Right now, the majority of people are going by what we are reading on the forum here. It's the only place I've saw any info posted about it, and the info we have is coming straight from one of the main testers. My interpretation, based on what he has said thus far, is the same as what Rick posted yesterday. "Silver will be detected to great depths ---

Just one problem, the high conductor response which iron gives is very close to other high conductors such as 24 kt gold and silver.

If you want to hunt clad at the beach while ID'ing iron, another machine will probably be more suited. If you want old silver deep, then you will have to do as LE JAG does and then hunt in all metal, listening for what he described.

I don't know who your source is; maybe they are testing a newer more refined version. I don't know. But based off what has been posted here by LE Jag, it sounds very similar to the TDI's high conductor deal where silver and iron are close together but low conductive items are super easy to differentiate. In my opinion, birdies are only for telling stupid drivers how you feel...and after spending the last two days in Ohio and north KY, I've sent a lot of "messages".

I deleted my post. Not sure if I offended you in any way but I did not mean to.

I was just trying to place some context on what has been posted. Probably way more than I should have even posted so I'll just say nothing at all.

My apologies.

My YouTube - [www.youtube.com]
Website - [www.thehuntergt.com]

Keep asking questions Dan'l. one of these days a product will emerge and we will see if it's just another TDI or something else.

If it's something else, I will bet a good Mexican Lunch at my favorite restaurant in Globe AZ that it will be all about quiet depth on low conductors ....GOLD, not about discrimination. The two modes of iron ID will be a tool, and a tool which has uses, but uses which the operator will have to learn to deploy to refine his search - not to DEFINE it.

Either there is gold in the sea which current detectors can't see or this thing will be another handy tool to do what other tools can also do -maybe in a different way.

The folks who dared to take their highly non-waterproof TDI's to the beach, like me when I lived in Virginia, found out that GB off, it was the deepest thing at the beach, But GB on - a lot of depth was lost.

This machine seems to claim about a 10% depth loss for Discrim on. That sounds like what Excalibur users and CZ operators report. Seems like discrimination COSTS something.

So what do you gain? Well, if we believe LE JAG, you gain depth and quiet. Not just that you can hear that big ring at 20", but maybe those thin rings at half that depth which no machine before could hear.

Will it happen - heck - I don't don't know - but I'm keen to find out and will happily sign up for an early delivery to see.

Apart from all that will be the "value proposition" - how much will it sell for and how does the cost/reward equasiotion look when we start to find out what it does?

Time will tell.

and oh yes, about those relics in bad ground - probably too specialized for that - no real GB for high mineralization - but Alexandre and Co. are busy - working.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2018 03:41AM by lytle78.

The tradeoff with the excal and sov with the discrim are stability, if you want to push the sensitivity to the max and still be stable you have to switch in all metal, but at the same sens discrim mode is deeper.
I noticed too on pi the size of the coil is really important for depth more than in vlf at least for my tdi sl.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2018 07:43AM by youdig.

Thats odd because Bill Crabtree told me .... depth doesnt very much with coil size on a PI.

Am i wrong Rick..... but arent they producing another for dirt hunting as well?

Well i was somewhat impressed with what the Nox is doing on small gold over the Xcal and CTX. Couple of days ago my buddy tested his Xcal over some small gold i found with the Nox. Open gold earrings blew him away...... hed get an inch maybe 2 and i was getting 6..... that earring was 1.4 grams. Some, he couldnt even see. That tells me there has to be gold the Nox just isnt seeing. Do i want a PI thats just a PI with the wrap around moved where i still dig a lot of iron? Sounds almost like pattern hunting..... im ok with that if there is a method other than guess work on iron at 20". Just another PI that goes 2'...... id have to think about that.

Yes Dew, Carl Moreland at FT posted a while back that they would be developing further focused PI machines - other than the beach machine. My guess would be that nugget hunting would be a logical first choice - then maybe even something for deep relics.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2018 03:05PM by lytle78.

the earring on my last picture is 1.1 gr.

about looking for silver / or other noble metals
but high conductor

the size of the target / length of the sound
and the purity of the signal
give a lot of information
and allows, even in all-metal mode
to make the difference / you need a minimum of practice

but everything can be learned / if I can do it
why not you .........

since the time I run the beaches
I remembered three things
to find a really old and interesting object
there are only three solutions

1- go there,
or no one ever pass (which is increasingly rare ...)

2 - sit down and wait for the storm of the century
(And pray for what happens on your beach)

3- take the deepest and most sensitive detector
and dig to go see


Of course, like me, you often dig for nothing
lead, bronze, brass
and from time to time luck smiles on you

silver ring of the 13th century
17th century gold ring
and some other more recent 18 / 19ths







or much older stuff in Europe
ax and spearhead of the Bronze Age / about 3000 years ...





I do not have the miracle recipe
to dig only gold and silver

it's your turn to choose,
what you are ready to give,
to then find ..

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Detector used : Fisher Aquamanta /

Pulsepower Goldscan 5c / Aquastar / Goldquest SSV3 / Nexus Coronado / Vista Gold

I wasn't upset or trying to down play the new machine as being just another TDI. I was saying that it sounds like it shares the characteristic of one from just the high conductor and iron sounding close to the same while low conductors being easy to differentiate.

When it came to people using pulse machines at the Culpeper, VA relic hunts, I could look at their finds based on what they had more of (low conductors or high conductors) and tell you what machine they were using. 9 out of 10 TDI users would have a lot of small brass...buttons, grommets, camp lead, small caliber bullets, etc but not a lot of the larger brass or some of the thicker buttons and not a lot of larger bullets. A GPX user was the opposite. They all found themselves using the timing that made it easy to tell bullets and such from iron....but a trade off to that is that buttons and that sort of thing, sounds just like super small junk. So after chasing the small buckshot balls and such...they begin to just dig the lower tones...and thus only focusing on the higher conductors. The big lead, heavier brass stuff. They were now digging 100 bullets a hunt but only getting one or two buttons unless they were heavier or bigger buttons. It was neat seeing the transition from when the majority used TDIs and Infiniums and then went to GPXs.

LE.JAG...…. your photos are always so inspiring! My Manta expectations (now) are: I'll be coming home with a couple of gold rings.... with every hunt! I am more-than-willing to dig 20".

I’d dig 20” to with that expectation. But that depends on time vs outcome.....cause I’m old lol.

"but everything can be learned / if I can do it
why not you ......... "

An answer to that ..... is 10% of the hunters find 90% of the gold.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2018 03:54PM by dewcon4414.

LE.JAG Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

Could you show how the detector sees a small gold thin chain WITHOUT A LOCK in the zone of the sea surf.
Thank you in advance.

Seems the take away is that, although yes it has some primitive form of discrimination, it's only effective on low conductors, and to get the ultimate depth, you're forced to use all metals mode, which completely negates the discrimination mode that we've heard was so great. Does that about sum it up?

Cal - the answer to your question is no...that’s not about it.

The all metal mode is the deepest - pretty much the same as in every metal detector which has discrimination.

It’s designed to find gold at the sea. Nothing else. It is claimed that it is better at this than any previous detector.

To find gold with it you search in all metal if conditions permit and cross-check in one of the two discrim modes to see if the target is ferrous or other high conductior. If so, it’s probably not gold jewelry.

If the place is littered with ferrous junk, you can search in one of the two ferrous ID modes and reduce your workload somewhat.

Low conductors other than gold are still good signals. To what extent this includes aluminum trash remains to be seen and will probably depend on whether you are in heavily trashed dry sand or wave/tide sorted more compact stuff.

High conductors like silver coins and US clad will ID with iron. It’s not designed to find these. It can detect them to good depth, but except for hearing the “round” return as opposed to some iron junk, it’s pretty much dig and see.

All this will be much clearer with the first hundred units are in the hands of serious gold seekers. Remember, Minelab charges $5000 for a detector which has no discrimination, is not very waterproof and mostly finds (in Our part of the world) small gold nuggets.

Just my opinion - we’ll see if I need to look up my wild game cookbook recepies for crow after it comes out.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2018 11:28PM by lytle78.