O.K. new detector testing has started...DeepTech Vista RG-1000.......12/13/12 Update to include the Deep Tech Vista Gold....1/31/13 Update now to include the Vista RELIC and the Vista SMART....2/3/13 Added Nail board 2/11/13 2-ft cache test

Great video Keith. It would be awesome if you was to put together a real world (in your mineralized dirt area) DVD od various hunts taken in the format like you did this one this morning. Of course, having someone else to work the camera would make life easier on you. But a man can learn alot by watching a seasoned detectorists analyze targets at various angles. And use various machines. Wow.....what a stocking stuffer that would make.

Keith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Its a straight forward machine..alot like a
> Musketeer advantage with dual tone's...
>
> I almost bet the european machines have copied the
> Musketeer circuit and evolved it...funny since the
> musketeer was built from a 1266 tear down...They
> looked at a 1266 and saw what need
> improved...Disc. Ground Bal.... and built a
> Musketeer..Now they seem to have added tone's in
> the latest.. Vista...
>
> Keith


It appears bleeding edge depth has its drawbacks.......

I was curious about the origins of these machines...over on Geotech for years they have been modding, tweaking and making coils
for the early 1200 series, Tesoros and Whites classics to make them go deeper.

My unproved assumption that this unit as well as others from those countries were in fact souped-up copies from earlier American builds.
If this were the case, that doesn't make it bad...US brands do need to offer more performance if they want to stay in business.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2012 02:32AM by Steve(MS).

Since Tesoro doesn't look like they are ever going to release a deep seeking Multi-Tone unit, it would be nice if they at least offered a mode on the Vista with 3 or 4 tones. The depth might drop off a bit but that would at least make it usable as a nice coin machine.
I can't really think of a deep (no meter) multi tone machine? I mean there is the Fisher CZ-21 but what else?

Albert

The vista is simple tech....Along the lines of pure analog....

I wish Tesoro Would take the Awesome Tejon and add an iron grount ...have it switch on and off and be variable break by disc setting...

I would be a very happy camper....

Tejon's will surprise you in iron...Tejon's can surprise you on depth..

Keith

In iron my new G-2 has really surprised me how good it will pick in iron but when it comes to depth there's no comparrison with the deep techs even the 25khz vista gold will go deep and a flip of switch and get a little more horse power if i need too.

Keith, real interesting machine. I've been on the fence about the Blisstool for some time now patiently watching/reading to see just how this machine pans out, so forgive me if this has been covered already in this thread as I don't have the time at the moment to read through it all (but will sooner or later here)...

Have you used the Blisstool, and if so...Have you put them head to head and reached any conclusions? I find it curious that your machine also seems to be similar in the respect of the discrimination only going up to foil here. No tone alerts I think I read thus far? I suspect another high amped tuned/inductive balance setup? Either way, the initial blurbs I've read in this thread sound like they hold a lot of solid promise perhaps and intrigues me to investigate further.

Which frequency is this DeepTech unit you have? My concerns are my soils/sands, which range from no, to mild, to higher minerals. In general every single frequency machine I've owned or used over about 8khz got lousy depth and stability in my soil, had issues with discrimination (when I used it) or at the least being able to give me finer target traits via the audio, and suffered especially on silver and copper coins at depth.

I'm not one to like high sensitivity to fine gold like earings and thin chains as by my experience that makes for a bumpy ride land hunting and ends up with me chasing fine bits of foil that sound too good to pass up. I prefer that kind of stuff to sound sick to tip me off, as my only concern with gold hunting is rings, and in that case even a thin ring will bang hard on my Minelab at extreme depth due to it being an intact loop which presents a large picture to the detection field. Only on odd days when water hunting would I ever be in the mood to use a machine that can hit on thin chains and such.

So what I'm wondering is if the general consensus is that the 8khz model is the one to go with for best depth on silver/copper coins and also for penetrating somewhat mineralized ground best and with the best stability? I'd be shocked if the recommendation ends up being one of the higher frequency models in this case.

Again, excuse me for any of this that has already been covered, as I won't be able to read more in depth in this thread right now. Thanks. I'm also interested in your opinion as I feel it's one I can trust on the true pros and cons of this detector as you don't seem too brand loyal or have any other motivations other than giving your honest opinion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2012 03:21PM by critterhunter.

Well i'm not Keith but i've owned the rg 1000 and i still own the vista gold and i also have the RELIC, the RELIC single toned is the deepest 8.6khz plus has a boost even with my 5" coil for it 8" coins aren't safe from it now after i get the deep stuff i'll go back in with vista gold 25khz this will find the small tiny little buttons lead brass items and this too has boost and then the all rounder machine is rg 1000 this is what made fall in love with deep tech it will get those 10 to 12" dimes has 2 tone and very accurate in depth on picking stuff out and runs at 12khz, but the newest machine they out is the vista smart running at 15khz 2 tone has a boost and tone is a little sharper more agressive tone

Hey critter...I have not used the bliss in the field...I have played with it but not used it...

this machine is on 12.5 kHz...dual tone switchable on and off with tone break according to disc setting...

There is also a 8kHz...single tone ....but does have a boost mode I do believe...

I have a Gold version coming as I type this...it's on 25kHz and has a boost mode...I want to see what the boost mode consist of...

right now I see the RG 1000 to be very capable in iron...and the depth seems to be right up there in more medium soil with the explorer....the explorer I believe has stronger audio on deep hit's but not neccesarily more depth...I can hear anything(SO FAR) that the explorer hears and get fooled by the same items that fools the explorer....this is real world hunt's....

The boost mode's might be an audio amp..and if it is I could see the deepies hitting with more gusto like the explorer audio offer's...but more audio does not equate more actual in ground depth..

I have also ran it against the F75 s.e. in ground real hunt's for depth...they seem equal with maybe a nod going to the Vista on deep iron location positive i.d....

The things the f75 is quick to call iron the vista is more prone to high tone on...so it has good and bad point's.Some of those high tones can be iron...nails at 12 Inches sometimes are rough...But I am still learning the nuances of the audio....The audio is very intuitive like an analog detector..

but on another note the Audio is more conveying to an artifact hunter than the explorer or f75 by the way it can size iron object's even at dpeth....


I will know more about boost process on the vista by the weekend...

There's an awful lot of good machine's made now-a-days..it's more up to us to find the niche each one hold's....because the playing fields for most object's are real close..

I do believe if the vista's get a tight elliptical coil ...small ...The unmasking in iron might become the one to beat...

Depth is not a problem it's deep...

Keith

How would these units compare to the Goldmaxx Power on recovery speed and IDing deep iron?

Hey Goldman..

If you have a GMP dont rush out and get a RG 1000.....they are so close it's more of operator technique than machine...

I think the 12.5 kHz is closer to performing like the DEUS than the GMP....I surmise the Gold Vista will be more of an equal match for the GMP....I might add the 12.5 Vista is a little deeper coin wise than the GMP but thats to be expected freq wise...

Both of them do some amazing thing's 3-deminsional...

Both of them will dig deep iron.....

The build quality on the GMP is very very good....more of a perfectionist grade..

The RG 1000 is built more on a consumer grade...nothing wrong with that but thats how cost can be kept down...The Vistas are just straight out no frills hunter's ...just down to the basic's...

Keith



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2012 01:59AM by Keith Southern.

the way most detectors should be SIMPLE if only more of the world could do this it would be alot better place

AMCJAVELIN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the way most detectors should be SIMPLE if only
> more of the world could do this it would be alot
> better place

Outside of a few detectors, aren't most simple? I think manufacturers can still get the quality to be a little better, especially with the materials we have out these days...

What an interesting thread this has been. There sure is a flurry of interest in the new European units .... as of lately.......... and for good/justifiable reasonings.

Even though (Greek/Roman...... thousands of years) Europe has severe iron masking issues,,,,,,,,,,,, do not belittle the fact that the rest of the world is "not as bad" in regards to 'iron masking'. If you have a site that is only 100 years old............ and/or............ you have a site that is 2000 years old............. the ONLY thing the metal detector cares about is: iron masking 'saturation'. In other words........... if a site only required .... say....... 47 years to accrue enough iron trash accumulation (usually nails) to "saturate" the metal detectors circuits..........,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,............... the end resultant is: the metal detectors abilities are shut-down and no non-ferrous targets can/will be found. It doesn't matter that the site is 100 years old or 2000 years old. Zero detector performance is zero detector performance. No joy. Personally, I have been 'shut-down' at Roman sites in Spain (due to severe iron masking)........... as much as I have been 'shut-down' at sites here in the United States. The resultant is the same.

On a good note; There certainly has been vast improvements in iron see-thru abilities/technologies with modern detection equipment....... and especially from Europe. I believe the true initiation point was with the advent/inception/release of the original T2 about 6 years ago. Three things come to mind: a "elliptical" configured "DD" coil. This is 2 of the 3 (that being "elliptical" and "DD" ). The third accolade was the very rapid MP (microprocessor). Collectively............ with these 3 attributes working in concert with each other....... really 'opened eyes'.
Now.......... the 4th attribute is the basic principle physics defying (paradox) XP GMP with its ability to start to see through iron...... for the first time in our history. Never say "never".

If only to expose (((make light of))) 'collective brains' can/would/could advance humankind/technology to much higher orders-of-magnitude ........ vs ........ individual/solo efforts.

((( Today is 12/12/12 )))

Tom, about the "shutdown".
Take a 2 dimensional simple coin/nail test.
As I am only familiar with ML models (DDs) so I ask this question. (Sorry for my ignorance, please humor me with a reply in spite of this)

If I place down on ground 1 nail and put coin under it...doesn't matter if it is touching or not...directly below it....(very close).
If I scan across nail/coin combo with the nail (thin wise), I get a signal that indicates there is something there other than a ferrous item.
If I turn 90 degrees and do the same scan..now I am scanning lengthwise on the nail in the nail/coin combo...I don't get any sign there is a non-ferrous item mixed in.

I have been told. perhaps wrongly that even the T2 would react the same way to the test above.
If this is true then faster response/ recovery won't help in some situations.
For instance, in areas where nails are plentiful (let's keep thinking only in 2 dimensional terms to keep it simple) there are nails laying orientated at multiple angles
wherein the DD coil is always scanning at least one nail lengthwise.

In that scenario, I would imagine a complete shutdown and mainly the fault of the DD configuration?

Is there a detector fitted with a DD coil that will signal on the simple test I proposed above while scanning the nail lengthwise on the nail/coin combo?

If the answer is no, then it would seem to me concentric coils..are still viable in some circumstances.
Please tell me your thoughts.

Steve...... you are right on target. A nail on top of a coin......... many detectors will detect both targets; ; ; even though both targets may sound 'washed out' (somewhat smeared). In reference to the angle-of-attack/direction of coil sweep over the nail........... from a longitudinal axis sweep................ regardless of detector brand......... the response on most detectors will be nearly the same.................. as................. the basic principle of physics dictates 'how' the eddy currents // magnetic lines of flux are 'cut'. The electronics can only do so much.

Concentric vs DD advantages/disadvantages. You wish to look exclusively at only the 2D plane. Not a problem. In theory (and for ease of explanation)......... let's say you have a AT Pro with a stock 10" DD coil. You also have a CZ with stock 10" coil. In theory...... the DD coil will have a field intensity footprint of about 10" long by 2" wide..... in its DD configuration. This is to say 10" x 2" = 20 square inches of 2D ground coverage. Well........... how about the 10" concentric 2D footprint. This would be Pi R-squared. This would equate to about 79 square inches of 2D ground coverage. Starting to paint a picture yet??? You have a much better chance of 'masking' a target under a concentric coil vs a DD coil. You have more chances to detect MULTIPLE targets under a concentric coil (vs DD coil). The ratio is 20-79.
BUT............. Yes........... as you point out = What if you have a nail and a coin separated by ...... say ......... 7" from each other....... laying on the ground...... in a 2D plane. IF IF IF you pass the DD coil 10" x 2" footprint beam in such a fashion so as to have the coin AND nail underneath/within the 'beam of detection' under the DD coil..... you will still have a masking issue with this DD coil. Case closed. With the concentric coil.......... let's say you hit the coin at exactly top-dead-center. The coin is exactly underneath the center of the coil. A textbook perfect (unlikely) condition. This is to say................ because the coil is 10" in diameter......... that there is exactly 5" of coil above the coin........ and 5" of coil below the coin. But.............. the nail is 7" away from the coin.................,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and 5" of coil is above the coin....approaching the nail....... but is 2" shy of being over the nail. In summary....... the nail is not under the coil (missed it by 2 inches). So...... the detector only sees the coin. Nice. BUT.......... what about ALL of the other areas of coil detection coverage that the concentric coil affords? Could there possibly be multiple targets that the concentric coil will detect (all at once).... that the DD 'footprint' of coverage has yet to pass over? (((((Now bring in the real world 3D plane (X-Y-Z axis -- aka detection 'volume' ) which is 4/3 Pi R-cubed (for a sphere.... for explanation purposes)....... and you will see non-logarithmic/asymptotic proportion growth/error))))).
Summation = In simple terms.............. the 'volume' of viewed dirt from a DD coil ... vs ... concentric coil viewed volume is very different. The DD coil will analyze quite a bit less dirt; subsequently...... see less targets at any given split-second...... separating them out with better success...... and moreso individually reporting them (in audio artifical-intelligence fashion)...... providing the user/operator with more targets to choose/select from.

To this day........... it is only the XP GMP (and Deus) that will start to unmask non-ferrous targets in a 3-D plane. Not greatly........ but surely enough to be categorized as a 'wow' factor.

I used to RUN from iron nail pits. Now........... Keith & I run TO these iron pits. (((A whole new untapped world just opened up))). This is the kind of revolutionary epiphany inventions that we seek the most. Discover the undiscovered.

Tom has given you a great answer Steve...

I notice you talkign about the nail length wise in your question...that's a very tough problem for detectors to achieve...

the newer machine's will signal a target off the the end of the nail but get the target under then nail and scan length wise and shut down will occur...

The coil sees alot more iron when its scanning a nail length wise.when the nail is like this " I " and a coin is under it, the coin get' s in the snapshot more than the nail...

One thing on the GMP's and the DEUS and also I am seeing on the Vista is you can get quite the airgap between the nail and the say coin and it will still signal when the nail is like this " I " ....Notice on other machine's the naisl has to be close or touching...the European machines can do better on a 3D test...

I almost think the better unmasking from the euro machines is the DD coil design coupled with the fine tunablity of the iron...these new euro machines use the whole potentiometer range just to cover smaller iron...


They might not be doing nothing no more than what can be expected they have just simply found out what works...There may not be no fancy sophisticated algorithim's going on...????


An f-75 with tone break and 100 point iron resolution disc would open your eye's...I Know this....Our American design engineer's NEED to know this..It would be so easily done...

The G2 is in the right direction... but the 1 point the nail is there 1 point it's gone is not fine enough...they should of made the G2 just have a iron disc circuit..

"Presto" a lot more unmasking would insue....

Keith

The gold will be in your hans tomorrow man what r you think?

Thanks Tom and Keith.
I have seen where a concentric coil can see underneath a few nails better than a DD (this only 2 dimensional and fairly shallow, say 3" deep or so).
Some of these old analog units with a small coil can give a signal where my ML's failed.(in certain scenarios)
But overall I am in total agreement that the DD coils do better...as we have seen all brands move toward making them the stock coil.

The one thing that turns me off from getting a Deus is the lack of a small coil...I know Keith even mentions that one was needed (multiple times mentioned it).

Then the GMP...it isn't even for sale over here, is it?
I see Tom you are testing with a small coil.
I would consider getting one provided the small coil doesn't cost too outrageous.

Keith, I am tempted to see what the T2 w/small coil will do but frankly, these areas where I am detecting
I sort of believe it will shut down it too. Nail city...shallow nails....a 5" coil is always over nails.

BTW, Tom and Keith...I have been keeping up with both of your testings of the XP machines and
it has got my interest...I don't understand them saying they won't make a small coil for the Deus.

Hey Steve dont avoid getting a DEUS because a small coil is not available...

It takes a small coil on other machines to do what the DEUS does with a 9 inch..I just think that so much more could happen with a small coil...but a DEUS is amazing in iron...

I have heard rumors that the 3.0 update actually has an electronic small coil setting........Yes that's what I said...an electronic small coil.....If it can be done I believe XP can do it...

If you relic hunt iron and have a DEUS theres really nothing going to outdo you...I am that confident in what I have seen and done...

I plan on doing some more videos after the first of the year with some real world hunts with the DEUS in some relic environs..

I try alot of detector's alway's looking for an edge..but the Xp's are cutting edge unmasker's....I have even went back and tried some other's again with different newer coil options and the DEUS is still cutting edge on unmasking in iron...

Where people spend the most time is where the most stuff is at, that includes the iron the more iron the more find's are there and the masking is even worse..... They are the hardest to get to after just a few hunt's on even a virgin site they will play out quickly...but there still finds of a lifetime there ...use the best tool you can get after the finds dry up...

If you could see all the masked items in an iron saturated site being masked you probably could not go to bed at night from worrying..LOL!

The GMP might be a tad better in pure Horsepower but the DEUS is more flexible....The DEUS is U.S. certified also...

Lets see what the Vista Gold brings to the plate...it arrives today...Thanks AMCJavelin for the loan...

Keith

Thanks Keith!


Keith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey Goldman..
>
> If you have a GMP dont rush out and get a RG
> 1000.....they are so close it's more of operator
> technique than machine...
>
> I think the 12.5 kHz is closer to performing like
> the DEUS than the GMP....I surmise the Gold Vista
> will be more of an equal match for the GMP....I
> might add the 12.5 Vista is a little deeper coin
> wise than the GMP but thats to be expected freq
> wise...
>
> Both of them do some amazing thing's
> 3-deminsional...
>
> Both of them will dig deep iron.....
>
> The build quality on the GMP is very very
> good....more of a perfectionist grade..
>
> The RG 1000 is built more on a consumer
> grade...nothing wrong with that but thats how cost
> can be kept down...The Vistas are just straight
> out no frills hunter's ...just down to the
> basic's...
>
> Keith

Not a prob, Keith if and when your ready after the gold i can send the RELIC down too if your interested and its deep!

Does anyone know if the Vista 1000 V1 can be upgraded to V2? Is it worth getting V1 for a good price and upgrading it (or not)?

I found the following on their site:

Difference between V1 and V2:

Vista RG1000 – V2 is the variant with two regimes of discrimination:
- silent discrimination
- two tone discrimination in ALL metal mode - low tone for ferrous and high tone for non-ferrous metals.

I got the Vista gold Today from AMCJAVELIN...Thanks Brandon....

This machine is way more suitable for working iron in my initial impression...nothing wrong with the RG 1000 but it is geared as an all-rounder...

This Gold machine is the type machine I like...very reactive...like's small stuff....slices through iron with precision....

The Coil is a world class coil design..this is very easily seen...very tight ...amazingly tight...
The coil cable noise is gone...grade of cable is very robust...


I am very impressed with the speed of recovery and yet the depth stays up too...did not expect a 25kHz machine to hit a 10 inch dime...It slightly weaker on the dime compared to the Rg 1000 but the buttons and lower conductors in my test garden just jump out at you...

I could really take a liking to this machine...Field hunt will reveal more....It has what I like tight elliptical coil on a high freq...actually a very high freq...Nosie free coils and cable A+ on that..

machine offers
boost mode..
Tone break 2 tone ferrous non ferrous adjustabe..
slow/fast filter
iron volume
regular volume

The real essential's to work an iron contaminated site....audio seems a little more cleaner...

heres a video I did...

will let the recovery speed speak for itself...might be the best I have seen while staying audibly discernable...it's very fast and exact..

judge for yourself..I know what I see..

O yeah it sees through my red clay bricks very, very well even on low conductor's...

[www.youtube.com]

Keith



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2012 03:35AM by Keith Southern.

Gosh Keith....don't do this to me. Not NOW of all times. LOL What I have been pining away for since last spring. A machine that can seperate like the Deus but with better depth.

The higher freq of 25-Khz should respond quicker (enhanced lateral separation) over lower freq units.
Looks promising.
The 'bench' to parallel (or trump) would be the XP series units....... especially in iron.
I have more interest (and confidence) in this unit... vs... the RG-1000.

that large cent i got with it this year only 5 to 6" deep about blew my head phones when i got that signal, i have to be honest it took me a while to warm up to the gold at first but my favorite is the RELIC single tone does have a pinpoint and set up is pretty much the same plus a boost!

Is the secret to the better depth due to the detector being designed for lower discrimnation ?

Better depth in????

Hi iron trash dirt????
Hi mineralization dirt????
Single/solo target clean dirt????

Hi Amcjavelin. You mentioned you have the relic which is 8 or 8.5 freq.Would you say that the relic is a bit more deeper than the gold or 1000 vista?In bad ground?Maybe not as fast though in iron compared to the gold vista.Id like to see a 11 inch plus machine on dimes and high conductors in high mineralization.The relic has one tone.How bad do you miss the dual tone compared to the other vistas?Thanks, Steve

Well i can say i've hit or gone over 11" dimes with the rg 1000 my buddy had found them first with his e-trac and wanted to compare notes and the rg-1000 would hit them but pretty faint but the relic i have the ut most confidence in depth with this machine i only have to hit the boost maybe once and a while, broken up signals or just about at all don't bother 9 times out of 10 its usually junk, the hardest thing to over come with these machines is aluminum which we get up here in some pastures up here in Maine