ON THE HORIZON = MDT-8000

Just got done with another relic hunt with the Tarsacci and a buddy running his Equinox 800(he has had it since they came out and has quit a bit of experience). The field we hunted has a bunch of fired .54, .58 and .69 cal minies in it. We were out 4 hours and pulled quit a few bullets (I found 26 and he found 14). Tarsacci was set up running mixed mode, 9 KHz sensitivity 6, disc 0, threshold -2, GB 690, black sand and salt OFF. Equinox was setup running Park 2, sensitivity 21, GB 0 (we did try manual GB, numbers rested at 28 but the signals sounded better at 0 so he left it), iron bias 0, All metal ON, recovery 5 and 11 inch coil.

He hasn't heard much about the Tarsacci so I told him about it and he said to let him know when I got some deeper sounding signals so we could compare detectors. First deeper target I got I told him the general area it was located to see if he could find it. After a about a minute of searching he couldn't find the target, so I showed him exactly where it was. He had a hard time hearing anything even though he knew where it was. We dug the bullet at a little over 9 inches and it was situated straight up and down. The next target I tried filming but couldn't figure out my new GoPro so it's a pretty bad video, didn't know it was still on at one point and had to cut some stuff out. I will post it just so you get the idea of what went on (don't laugh). That bullet was similar although he could get something in one direction.

The reason I'm posting this is to show someone else running a detector against the Tarsacci rather than me so it doesn't look so biased. The Tarsacci does have the ability to see targets at depth VLF machines can't. My soil isn't terribly mineralized compared to Culpeper. Deus is at 40% fe bar in my soil, Culpeper when I was there registers 50-60% on the Deus.

Some other things I learned today; iron has a sound of it's own, almost like the signal is being sucked into the ground, hard to explain. Also, if you get an iffy signal you can temporarily bump up the threshold to check the target and see if it gets better.

Here's the video

YouTube

Thanks for the nice clear audio and visual videos you do.

You ever run into trash areas with iron/nails? If so, how does the 8000 do?

Thanks,

El

Andrew...…. just curious. Could you have bumped Sens up to '7' on the Tarsacci?..... or does the soil dictate Sens on '6'.
Good video/Good capture.

El-yes this area does have some trash in it, nails, tin can pieces, .22 lead/brass and shotgun shells. You have to work through it slow but its doable. Of course I'm digging most everything but the iron, starting to know what .22 lead sounds like too so I'm leaving most of it.

Tom-I can often run 7 in that field but we just got an inch of rain and then snow on top of it. So ground was pretty wet and a little to chatty for 7 today.

Good video...... and you are testing the right machines. Goes to prove ... you dont know what you are missing if you missed it. Could he have ran in say field mode and gotten better depth?

I've used it a few times now and I think I'm getting the hang of it. I finally got to try it at the washed out boulder fields we've been hunting. We haven't had much for storms lately so the place is getting pretty hunted out. My first good find with the Tarsacci was a big silver earring and after that a silver spoon. I also dug some clad and trash.

I think I've got it ground balanced fairly well around 535. Salinity 28. Sense 7-8. It's been very stable and quiet. The ground balance is not easy because the quietness covers such a wide range that I can't really zero in on any precise number.

I played with different frequencies, mostly 12 and 18. I need more time with these settings to come to any conclusions.

There are a lot of hot rocks at this place which were easy to eliminate by raising the salinity balance to 34. It made the rocks disappear but I'm not sure how this affects depth. It didn't seem to increase the targets. I didn't notice any difference except that it was quieter without the rocks. I need more time to figure out if it's better with or without the hot rocks.

There was some black sand in spots. I tried the Black Sand mode but noticed no advantage. It was a little noisier. Maybe I needed to turn down the Sense. I'm not sure if our black sand is the same black sand that the mode is designed for. Our black sand is a deep base layer. It leaves your fingers black if you get it on your hands.

I'm very happy with the machine so far. I love the sounds. I can't wait to get out there again. Right now we're having a blizzard and tomorrow we have a high of 10 degrees. Maybe Tuesday or Wednesday.

.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2019 03:24PM by Badger in NH.

Dew-I usually run field 2 when I use my Equinox in that field, but he likes Park 2, most people I know do. Either setting seems to get about the same depth. The Equinox stops positively ID'ing those bullets at about the 8 inch mark, the Deus at about 7.

The deepest bullets are about 12-13 inches and of course the GPX will hear them no problem.

Interesting thing about the Tarsacci when I have gone over some of those real deep bullets located with the GPX, it knows something is there it just doesn't give the chime on the end of the signal to tell you it's good. I'm getting to the point now that I'm starting to recognize the difference between a real deep good target the Tarsacci can't positively ID and iron. Deep small nails are still an issue though, but they're also an issue on the GPX.

Deep average sized iron (like a large nail or bolt) on the Tarsacci has a longer AM signal in one direction and a slightly different tone, hard to explain but almost like the tone is being sucked into the ground. A deep good target that can't be ID'ed is shorter from all directions and could almost be considered falsing to some extent, but is repeatable. I'm now starting to check those signals by bumping up the threshold to see if the signal get better and the chime starts to appear. About half of the time these have turned out to be deep minies, sometimes they end up being .22 lead/brass at 5-6 inches and I will admit occasionally there is nothing there at all.

The other thing I'm doing is to check these iffy signals is take a few inches off. If it was ground noise the signal disappears, if the target is good the chime starts in. Really you could do that with any detector but the Equinox in a lot of cases doesn't like disturbed ground unless you can get the coil right down in the hole.

Depth sounds about what one would expect on the Nox on those targets. Have you noticed the machine having any issues with the angle of targets like the Nox has? I do know what you are talking about on iron having that sucking tone. The Xcal.... when used in AM functions much like a PI and iron is a PULLED target..... a longer snapping kind of tone.... like a rubber band sort of.

My hunting (water) is kind of no brainer to some people who doesnt do much of it. Im much more concerned at finding target...... then work it from there. I really concentrate on repeatables that some just chalk it up to falsing or iron. Biggest issue to me isnt so much bottle caps as it is screws..... repeatable high tone low tone and they are just small enough to fool a depth meter. Im used to removing a bit of sand to get a better read on a target. Hows it do about recovery and IDing that the target is still there? I ask that because the Nox will loose targets in the hole more so than FBS/BBS. The target is still there... normally in the middle of the hold where everything moves.

Im still a little confused on the Blk sand mode and when to use it. The machine has tracking right? seems that would do it?

Badger.....it has auto GB too right? If it does wont you have a real good idea how off you are if you auto GB and get a reading? Hot rocks are normally an indicator of a bit to much sensitivity causing wrap around. On other machines we would have to lower sensitivity...... which of course the salt setting would do, but we could notch the two higher digits which helped a lot.

Dew-Tarsacci doesn't appear to have much of an issue with angle of approach. Target recovery is good, Tarsacci doesn't mind an air gap unlike the Equinox. Targets are usually centered good. In my videos you probably noticed my target are usually at the side of the hole but I'm doing that on purpose to get an accurate depth. Tarsacci does have tracking, black sand is seperate and should be used if black sand is present.

dewcon4414 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Badger.....it has auto GB too right? If it does
> wont you have a real good idea how off you are if
> you auto GB and get a reading? Hot rocks are norm
> ally an indicator of a bit to much sensitivity cau
> sing wrap around. On other machines we would have
> to lower sensitivity...... which of course the sal
> t setting would do, but we could notch the two hig
> her digits which helped a lot.

Yes, it has auto GB, but I'm never sure if it is accurate. There is usually little if any sound to go by, only numbers. I probably just need more practice.

So far the manual ground balance has been difficult because the numerical increments seem very tiny and you have to run through a lot of numbers. On most of the detectors I've used, you only have to go a few numbers away from the balance point before the ground starts making noise. The Tarsacci doesn't seem to do this. The precise numerical balance point seems lost in a wide area of silence. It's too early for me to make any assumptions. I need more time on the machine. I could very well be doing the procedure wrong.


The Salinity Balance is a little easier to use but I need to develop more confidence there as well.


.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2019 06:48PM by Badger in NH.

Badger...…. That is EXACTLY how to use the Salt Balance..... to silence/rid the hot rocks...…. in a NON-SALT dirt environment. Your Ground Balance can still be balanced to the dirt/mineralization ………,,,,,,,,,,,, and your Salt Balance can be utilized for: yet, a different function (ie. elimination/silencing hot-rocks)……. and NOT affect the Ground Balance. There should be: zero depth gain..... zero depth loss: by adjusting the Salt Balance to rid hot-rocks. This also allows the unit to 'see-through' the hot-rocks.... removing the 'masking' culprit. This is another 'quirk' of the Tarsacci. (((A very positive/usable attribute))). This is a large advantage...… when you can adjust Ground Balance...… and Salt Balance SEPERATELY. Kudo's for this 'discovery' (((outside of the factory))).

Andrew...…. Ok...… understand; on the Sens setting for your conditions. You (now) can see where a lower Sens setting can be used in wet/conductive ground; yet, achieve depths that would (normally) only be achieved with higher Sens settings. Again...… another (positive) quirk of this platform.

The EQX (and many other detectors) can easily lose (not see) a detected target..... if a bit of dirt (or wet-sand) is removed...above the target. The Tarsacci does not have this issue.

Badger: When your detector has a numerically 'wide-span' of silence whilst Ground Balancing the unit...…… this is indicative of lower mineralization. If the Ground Balance is hair-splitting sensitive: just a few numbers above or below neutral (balanced)...… and the detector goes crazy.,.,.,.,.,.,.,., this would be indicative of heavy/bad mineralization.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Badger...…. That is EXACTLY how to use the Salt Ba
> lance..... to silence/rid the hot rocks...…. in a
> NON-SALT dirt environment. Your Ground Balance can
> still be balanced to the dirt/mineralization ………,,
> ,,,,,,,,,, and your Salt Balance can be utilized f
> or: yet, a different function (ie. elimination/sil
> encing hot-rocks)……. and NOT affect the Ground Bal
> ance. There should be: zero depth gain..... zero
> depth loss: by adjusting the Salt Balance to rid h
> ot-rocks. This also allows the unit to 'see-throug
> h' the hot-rocks.... removing the 'masking' culpri
> t. This is another 'quirk' of the Tarsacci. (((A v
> ery positive/usable attribute))). This is a large
> advantage...… when you can adjust Ground Balance..
> .… and Salt Balance SEPERATELY. Kudo's for this '
> discovery' (((outside of the factory))).

When your detector has a numerically 'wid
> e-span' of silence whilst Ground Balancing the uni
> t...…… this is indicative of lower mineralization.
> If the Ground Balance is hair-splitting sensitive:
> just a few numbers above or below neutral (balance
> d)...… and the detector goes crazy.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,
> this would be indicative of heavy/bad mineralizati
> on.


Thanks Tom,

We should probably specify whether we are hunting wet beach, water or dirt. I bought the Tarsacci mostly for hunting the wet beach. I learned how to eliminate hot rocks from an earlier post.

Above, you specified a "NON-SALT DIRT" environment. How will eliminating hot rocks affect performance in a SALT BEACH situation? Would it be better to stay with a proper salinity balance and not try to eliminate the hot rocks?

Also, most of my beaches don't have any dry sand this time of year, making it difficult to do a proper ground balance. Should I go to a local dry sand beach to do the ground balance procedure and just use that GB setting all the time at my other beaches?

.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2019 06:12AM by Badger in NH.

wow thats great if you loose no depth in salt mode. To do that do you have to salt balance the dirt? When our sand gets damp even the salt really lights it up.... most machine require the salt setting to be very stable in the wet sand..... especially single freq. Here Tom..... would you recommend AUTO GB over manual?

How do you know when to use tracking vs blk sand..... how do the two differ?

Badger; yes...…. keep the Salt Balance 'balanced' to the wet-salt environment. You must retain 'stable performance' to the wet-salt.
As far as Ground Balancing to dry sand...…. when there is no dry sand: I would recommend two choices. 1). Remember/Use the same Ground Balance setting that you achieved when you DID have some dry sand on your beach. 2). Or...… yes. Find a local beach that does have dry sand...… and find what the Ground Balance settings/numbers are... on that beach.

Dew..... no. You do not have to 'Salt Balance' to dirt. You can just simply adjust the Salt Balance to rid the hot rock(s).
Dew..... I recommend auto Ground Balance. BUT...… if the minerals are too low (which you will find here in Florida)….. then you can attempt manual Ground Balance. If there is no response through the entire spectrum range of Ground Balance...……. then simply place the Ground Balance around 500.
Dew..... I only recommend "Tracking" when there is a rapid varying delta/change in very short distances of dirt searched/traveled. Florida does not have this condition.... in nearly all locations.
Dew..... Black Sand is for magnetic black sand. BUT...… there are cases whereby invoking Black Sand mode 'can' present better performance. Because this is very site-specific...…. you must test this....in your locale...… in order to determine IF there are attributes of using this function.

Regarding the Black Sand mode, what is considered magnetic black sand? I assume it's not just the sand color. I did a quick Google search but could not conclude anything.

How can I know if I have black sand conditions. Is there a way to test it?

Is it found on the east coast?

Is it volcanic in origin?

.

I just posted a video that might answer a lot of peoples questions about settings on the Tarsacci. It's a little long so I apologize in advance.Tom or anyone else please feel free to correct me or add where applicable.

YouTube

Good to see some videos that are teaching in nature.

GB on dry sand... mine can really vary...... really dry is 0 on the Nox... get a little moisture and it can go to 45.... then on the wet sand near the water it could be 4. Then if i salt balance over 18" of water...... is it good for transitioning in and out of the water? Or if im not finding anything in the water and opt to run some wet sand..... will i need to GB AND SB there near the water? Interesting way you GBed...... i assume that was auto GB? Does the coil require movement for proper GB? I have swung the coil... WIGGLED it side to side for GB before. How well does the machine AIR TEST? How well will it pick up targets near targets. I know Tom said it was somewhat swing dependent for best results.

Badger....... i believe the manual indicates black sand is a form of graphite..... but there are other forms like Tom mentioned in another post... hematite and magnetite come to mind in some locations.

From my vast experience, and discussions with the creator, normally it's do it once and forget it. However, be aware of hearing the GB slip and falseing set in. Bounce the coil and if there is noise adjust it out. Look at your GB settings before making changes and return there if no improvement can be heard. Adjust Salt then with same deal- 3 or 4 numbers at most here. Failing that toggle Black Sand on off- no joy try Salt on off. No joy look at Upping Threshold then dropping Sensitivity. In my experience, if you were good at first, fixing GB is all you need to do to get back to silent running.
But as always what ever works!

Past(or)Tom
Using a Legend, a Deus 2, an Equinox 800, a Tarsacci MDT 8000, & a few others...
with my beloved, fading Corgi, Sadie

dewcon4414 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Badger....... i believe the manual indicates black
> sand is a form of graphite..... but there are othe
> r forms like Tom mentioned in another post... hema
> tite and magnetite come to mind in some locations.


Assuming that not all black colored sand is mineralized, how would one determine if there was magnetic black sand on a beach?

.

Abenson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I just posted a video that might answer a lot of p
> eoples questions about settings on the Tarsacci. I
> t's a little long so I apologize in advance.Tom or
> anyone else please feel free to correct me or add
> where applicable.
>
> [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJdVYwucRN0&f
> eature=youtu.be]YouTube[/url]


Very good video.
I like the more roundness profile (on nonferous vs nails) Tarsacci gives too when using just AM checking deeper targets.
Thanks for sharing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2019 06:51PM by tnsharpshooter.

Outstanding video. That's one I will be watching numerous times.

To take it a step further, have you did any park hunting with it or considered doing a park hunt?

On your relic hunts, it would be interesting if possible to place a nail and some other metals near the target so we can hear the different tones and recovery speed. Just a thought.

Thanks again for the great video..

El

Most of the black in color sand ..... which normally is a vane..... IS black sand. Gray sand can get pretty mineralized as well. Running with the grain..... E to W you wont hear it as much as you might N to S.... where you actually cross vanes and get more chatter. Disadvantage of running with the grain (E to W) is on a DD coil some machines react more so than others to size..... pushed up rings (on edge) most of the time lay so you get less surface.

It's snowing here right now, expecting 8 inches today, so it might be awhile before I get out again.

I've tried park hunting once and didn't like the Tarsacci in that situation. With all the aluminum trash it's just too hard to decide what to dig IMO. I'm not much of a park hunter anyway.

Next time I'm out I'll show how the Tarsacci does in denser trash and what iron sounds like.

dewcon4414 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Most of the black in color sand ..... which normal
> ly is a vane..... IS black sand. Gray sand can ge
> t pretty mineralized as well. Running with the g
> rain..... E to W you wont hear it as much as you m
> ight N to S.... where you actually cross vanes and
> get more chatter. Disadvantage of running with t
> he grain (E to W) is on a DD coil some machines re
> act more so than others to size..... pushed up rin
> gs (on edge) most of the time lay so you get less
> surface.


Do you mean vein?

The black colored sand on my beaches is deep below the normal sand. It does not show up as a vein. It is a very old layer that covers most of the beach. When the normal sand gets pulled out during a storm, the deeper black sand layer appears. It is very black and will make your fingers black if you handle it. Would this be considered black sand?

Can black sand be picked up by a detector?

.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2019 08:46PM by Badger in NH.

Abenson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's snowing here right now, expecting 8 inches to
> day, so it might be awhile before I get out again.
>
> I've tried park hunting once and didn't like the T
> arsacci in that situation. With all the aluminum t
> rash it's just too hard to decide what to dig IMO.
> I'm not much of a park hunter anyway.
>
> Next time I'm out I'll show how the Tarsacci does
> in denser trash and what iron sounds like.

About park hunting, I should have been more explicit. I was thinking more of the open spaces and not around the tables where the pull tabs. foil and bottle caps are thrown.

El

Black sand can make a detector false much like EMI when you sweep the coil. I would assume if u get this kind of chatter your GB may confirm it during your attempt to settle it.

Andrew...…… VERY good video. Thanks for all of your efforts!!!

Yes...… black sand can come in many different flavors; yet, one common denominator is: magnetic. You can see/witness this with a rare earth magnet.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Andrew...…… VERY good video. Thanks for all of you
> r efforts!!!
>
> Yes...… black sand can come in many different flav
> ors; yet, one common denominator is: magnetic. You
> can see/witness this with a rare earth magnet.


Thanks Tom, I just happen to have a rare earth magnet. I will do a test next time I run into some black sand.

After reading these posts, I have a feeling my black sand is non-magnetic. It will be good to know for sure.

.

Badger in NH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NASA-Tom Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Andrew...…… VERY good video. Thanks for all of y
> ou
> > r efforts!!!
> >
> > Yes...… black sand can come in many different fl
> av
> > ors; yet, one common denominator is: magnetic. Y
> ou
> > can see/witness this with a rare earth magnet.
>
>
> Thanks Tom, I just happen to have a rare earth mag
> net. I will do a test next time I run into some bl
> ack sand.
>
> After reading these posts, I have a feeling my bla
> ck sand is non-magnetic. It will be good to know f
> or sure.
>
> .


[m.youtube.com]

Abenson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's snowing here right now, expecting 8 inches to
> day, so it might be awhile before I get out again.
>
> I've tried park hunting once and didn't like the T
> arsacci in that situation. With all the aluminum t
> rash it's just too hard to decide what to dig IMO.
> I'm not much of a park hunter anyway.
>
> Next time I'm out I'll show how the Tarsacci does
> in denser trash and what iron sounds like.

ABenson -

I've enjoyed following along with the videos. Appreciated that you're taking the extra time and hassle to put them together.

I read above that hunting in a park full of conductive trash isn't the forte' of the Tarsacci. I wasn't expecting it to be more than a great beach machine. However, it looks like the Tarsacci is a good match for the field you're hunting. It is a little hard to gauge how much 'ghost town' type junk is there. If the junk is there, how is the Tarsacci handling the rusty tin and nails? If you have bullets near the tin and nails, can the Tarsacci separate the signals? Or do you need pretty clean ground?

I imagine with a GPX you've also run the full gamut of FBS detectors with larger coils out at the lake. How does it compare to FBS with a larger coil for finding stuff in the black layer? I go out that way on rare occasion, but have an acquaintance that frequents it.

Rich (Utah)

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Just one more good target before I go.