MINELAB MANTICORE: DATA & PERFORMANCE

Steve...... you have a die-break 1876 Dime!

I understand exactly where you are coming from. To make matters worse.......... I hunt with Manticore Ferrous Limits: Nails (Upper)....... all the way down on 4 . , . , . , . , . , . , . , and Ferrous Limits: Bottle Caps (Lower).....all the way down on 3. This makes nearly EVERY nail/ferrous-object: partly false/bleed through.....into the non-ferrous range. BUT....... where I am (fairly easily) able to delineate/differentiate between ferrous objects VERSUS ferrous objects in co-locate with non-ferrous......is....... (primarily) by the overall LENGTH of the audio............and...........(secondarily) by the CLARITY of the audio. (((In particular: the preamble & postamble))). I am hunting at old homesites ...... in carpets of nails.......,,,,,,.........whereby....... non-ferrous targets have CEASED.

I am REALLY glad that you are trying to LEARN the audio/Manticore..........and.......... in (what appears to be) "already detected" areas (by you).............that are 'thick' with nails.......... . , . , . , . , . , . , BEFORE you perform the software update!

Tom will watch this video of the issue I'm having in high mineral dirt with the Manticore update. In most modes you'll notice the ID for the target is correct, but the audio, red underlined number and trace all say iron. BTW Minelab sent me a new machine, so I think we can rule that out.

Thanks Andrew

[youtu.be]

Thanks, Gary.

And YES -- I would concur, LOL!

Steve

Thanks, Chris! I hope you are correct...

Steve

EPL II Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As always, excellent write up Steve. Thank you for
> being articulate in your words to describe what yo
> u are experiencing with the Manticore. My friend h
> as a Manticore and has shared very similar experie
> nces. However, as soon as he updated the software
> (which includes the new “stabilizer”) iron falsin
> g and chatter was severely reduced. I understand y
> ou haven’t downloaded the software and have not do
> ne so due wanting to learn the machine but this wi
> ll save your sanity lol. I look forward to your fu
> ture reports on the Manticore. - Jim

Jim,

Thanks for the kind words!

I appreciate that information about your friend's experience with the update, including the "stabilizer" feature. Once I feel like I have "enough" experience, I plan to do the update; it would be nice to have some of that noise reduced, and perhaps a bit of a VDI improvement...but I can live with the VDI up-averaging if the audio is less "tedious."

Thanks!

Steve

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Steve...... you have a die-break 1876 Dime!

I was wondering if that's what I was seeing, on that dime! Too bad I "nicked" the back of it, apparently; there's a scratch on the reverse, that I presume I must have carelessly caused...and I almost NEVER do that.

>
> I understand exactly where you are coming from. To
> make matters worse.......... I hunt with Manticore
> Ferrous Limits: Nails (Upper)....... all the way d
> own on 4 . , . , . , . , . , . , . , and Ferrous L
> imits: Bottle Caps (Lower).....all the way down on
> 3. This makes nearly EVERY nail/ferrous-object: pa
> rtly false/bleed through.....into the non-ferrous
> range. BUT....... where I am (fairly easily) able
> to delineate/differentiate between ferrous objects
> VERSUS ferrous objects in co-locate with non-ferro
> us......is....... (primarily) by the overall LENGT
> H of the audio............and...........(secondari
> ly) by the CLARITY of the audio. (((In particular:
> the preamble & postamble))). I am hunting at old h
> omesites ...... in carpets of nails.......,,,,,,..
> .......whereby....... non-ferrous targets have CEA
> SED.

I honestly don't know how you do it. You have really trained your ears, bumping your limits to less and less "aggressive" levels, over time. Right now, I'm overwhelmed, at FACTORY limits settings! I can't imagine running the settings you do. Yes, I fully understand that at those settings, you'd be getting some "bleed" of nearly every nail, into the "non-ferrous" range. But, do you not experience a percentage of square nails where from at least some sectors, it's not a "bleed" issue, it's a full-on, pretty-good-sounding high tone?

I know that what someone "hears," is a REALLY difficult thing to describe. So, I will simply try to focus my attention on what you said -- LENGTH and CLARITY of the tone, with focus on preamble and postamble. I do experience some targets that sound "drawn out" -- i.e. too "long," and some that are "harsh" or "scratchy," so I get what you are saying. But I have a good many others that are -- for me, at my limited experience level -- nearly impossible to differentiate.

>
> I am REALLY glad that you are trying to LEARN the
> audio/Manticore..........and.......... in (what ap
> pears to be) "already detected" areas (by you)....
> .........that are 'thick' with nails.......... . ,
> . , . , . , . , . , BEFORE you perform the softwar
> e update!

Interesting comment here. Yes, the church I hunted with the heavy iron is one I've hit many times, before. Dozens of times. The dime and Reale were NOT found within the heaviest of the iron, but while they were recovered from a "cleaner" portion of the church yard, they were nonetheless certainly in an area that I've been over several times. With that said, I did pull a couple of Indian Head pennies out of the thickest of the iron; I was just looking for a more clear -- and repeatable -- high tone amongst the barrage of grunts, as I rotated the target...and it was nice that I was able to manage a non-ferrous recovery a couple of times.

I guess, in my mind, my thinking on not doing the download yet is that I don't want to rely on a "filter," so to speak, to do the "thinking" for me, at this point. I want to understand the audio first, before I try to make it "easier" on myself. I feel like there are probably some "lessons to be learned," about the audio, if I discipline myself to endure it BEFORE resorting to a "filter" instead. But, I will say that it would be nice to be able to proceed along during the hunt, more efficiently -- i.e. with fewer "stops," where I have to fully interrogate so many of the "falses," Hearing the audible differences between a false, vs. possible non-ferrous/ferrous co-locate, IMMEDIATELY, instead of having to do a more thorough "interrogation," would be most welcome, as the machine simply remains mentally fatiguing to me, at this point.

Finally, I'll note that I was NOT hunting in ATHC. That is just TOO fatiguing for me, at this point. But, I didn't opt for ATLC either, which seems to be the least fatiguing/least "falsy" mode. I ran with All-Terrain general, which seems to be somewhat of a middle ground. between the two. Bottom line, though -- the hope for me is that YOU have learned to efficiently "mentally discriminate," even with MUCH less aggressive limits settings (which of course means MUCH more "noise" to sort through), and that therefore tells me that it's at least "possible" to achieve.

Steve

Andrew.......... I watched your video........ bumper-to-bumper. I do NOT see where you are doing anything wrong. And........ I am really glad....... that you used (and video-captured) Beach Seawater Mode. This is a large determinant........ and a pace-setter.,.,.,.,., for problem-resolution. Is there any better/worse ID resolution on those 3 targets....... with different coil sweep speeds?......in particular: slower sweep-speeds? Do you (by chance) remember/know how the Tarsacci would have responded to these 3 buried targets? ((( Critical question!!! ))).

It is REALLY looking like the Manticore is struggling with that high mineralization dirt..........and not an error that you induced. Good video. I'm going to put some more 'thunk-time' into your experiences.
Let us fix the painful truth........ so we can technologically 'advance'.

Tom-I left those targets buried, so can go back and try different sweep speeds if you would like and capture it on video. The Tarsacci would have no problem hitting these targets. In fact the Manticore with the old software version does night and day difference on those same targets. I'm working on that video and will get a link to you for the video tomorrow.

Andrew............ MEGA thanks!!!! But you do NOT need to video/record different sweep-speeds UNLESS there is a large difference in ID performance. You can save the time........ and just simply report!
Yes.......... pre-update performance would be interesting......ESPECIALLY if there is truly a difference between the new update with Stabilizer: "OFF".............versus..............old software that does not even have the Stabilizer option/software.
Tarsacci data can also be (possibly euphorically) ""revealing"".

Tom

Here is the link to the video comparing the old and new software on the Manticore.

[youtu.be]

Andrew......... I am going to share this specific video with the rest of the team at Minelab. I feel the video is spot-on............and I will stand behind it.,.,.,.,., validating/certifying it.

Yes......... the update .... has the targets giving the correct ID numbers ....... BUT, BUT, BUT ........ the ID's are all in RED! Meaning: Iron audio. ((( Which equates to: NO DIG ))).

It is interesting that...... no matter what update....... no matter what mode . , . , . , . , . , . , . , . , . , . , . , . , your detector violently/aggressively slams on a Ground Balance of '2'.........every time.,.,.,.,.,., and does not deviate. Your dirt is HOT. A manually inputted Ground Balance of (say) 5 or 6........ and your unit will be unstable/chatty/going nuts. HOT dirt!

Performance hint: NEVER "manually" adjust your Ground Balance. ALWAYS use the pumping-the-coil mode.......letting the detector find its quiescent Ground Balance. (((And for MANY reasons))).

Thanks Tom I've been working with an engineer at Minelab over the last few weeks but I think you being behind a fix will speed things along.

I'll do some more testing today with ferrous limits and swing speed and let you know the results.

Tom here is some data. Something wierd-seems like right after making settings ie recovery, GB, etc. First few sweeps over the first target Manticore does great, but multiple sweeps degrade the target quickly. Performance overall levels off at a worse level than when first turned on and I start detecting.

Ultra low sweep speed improves response.

Turning horseshoe on improves response. Red underline goes away (obvious) audio cleans up somewhat.

Raising or lowering the lower ferrous limits results in the target to just trace above the lower limits line. Higher lower limits improves target response, which I find interesting.

This all in AT LC settings same as the video

Andrew......... looking at your 2D-screen ID traces.......... I'm wondering if a:
Ferrous Limits - Upper: 7
Ferrous Limits - Lower: 2
would greatly change your results.

Is the engineer that you are in comm's with (at ML) Niall?

Andrew, thank you for sharing. Definitely an eye opener.

Yes Tom it's Niall.

I left upper the same
Lower I went down to 1 and up to 6. Oddly 5 seemed to be the best.

Andrew....... you're in REALLY good hands with Niall.

Your dirt is making Ferrous Limits (especially: Lower) .....respond in asymmetrical fashion............somewhat unpredictable.

I'm still VERY curious how Tarsacci would respond on your 3 targets. It would be a 'key' telltale.

Tom or anyone else, will we ever see accessory coils for the Manticore? They have been advertised for sale for a long time, but they are still not available. Is Minelab having problems?

Ouch! I'm not on the manufacturing side-of-the-house............. and do not have an answer! ---- And I would certainly hate to give the canned/preprogrammed/generic answer of: "soon".

Manticore accessory coils are RELEASED. In production. Production volume of these coils....is also increasing . , . , . , . , . for those who are interested.

Hi Tom, I read on another forum from a minelab dealer that aside from the m8 and m15 coils their product list also mentions an m9 coil.

3011-0473 Coil, M9 Accessory MTCR

Do you have any info regarding this coil?

Thanks!

Hmmmmmmmmmmm. That info was NOT supposed to leak out.
Yes. There are a few proto's floating around. Here's one tidbit I'm willing to share: --- As to be expected; the 9" coil is not as deep as the standard 11" coil......with identical settings. BUT.......(for instance)........ in a wet-salt environment.........the performance is less than the 11" coil with same settings; YET, the smaller coil allows for additional Sens increase.......due to the smaller coil seeing less wet-salt feedback/hinderance. With the authorized extra Sensitivity increase......... nearly all of the depth is regained.....and nearly to the same performance levels of the 11" coil.
The 9" coil is formidably lighter.
We are still debating the "need" for this coil. We are still debating the "marketing" of this coil........and the associated projected sales numbers. Not sure we'll even produce it.

ON THIS SUBJECT: What configuration (and size) coils would we all like to see/have....... for Manticore, Equinox.........or ANY detector? Don't be afraid to think outside-the-box. Mild-to-wild.

Maybe I'm old school but an 8 inch coil is not a small coil. Something between 4 and 6 inches max is a small coil. The old whites 4x6 was just about the perfect size. If I'm going to use an 8 inch coil I might as well use a 9 or 10 for everything.

Kenny
[www.youtube.com]

Thanks for clearing up what that m9 coil is. If the 9 inch is for the water, is it designed to cause less drag when swinging it under water?

How about making some coils that are white so we can see where the coil is when its under water lol. My water isn't crystal clear so I put reflective tape on the top of my coils.

I think a lot of people would like a 10x5 elliptical.

Why not a concentric coil, never see those any more.

A clean sweep coil would be perfect for fresh drops on the beach.

What about making a completely wireless coil? Might be possible using the new bluetooth le wireless chip thats in the manticore.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/2023 07:19PM by vipergts323.

I would like to see some Concentric coil choices for SMF detectors.

Chris

Yes. . . . 9" coil i substantially more hydrodynamic.,.,.,.,.,., for two reasons. First........ a smaller coil is naturally more hydrodynamic. Secondly...... the ribbing of the coil is also more hydrodynamic.

Marketeer's are all about: "THE NUMBERS".
There's quite a few requests (over the years) for oddball-sized coils; yet, there appears to be a general consensus (with fairly large aggregate numbers)......for a concentric coil. WE HEAR YOU!!! But........(((the infamous: 'BUT')))!!!............ the electronic architect of Manticore ....does not easily lend itself to accuracy with a concentric coil. . . . . . . . . especially in the department of ID accuracy. Yet........ we'll look into it.

Truthfully....... I'd like to install a 4" x 2-1/2" elliptical double-D coil on Manticore..........then collapse the shaft ALL the way down to airplane-transport///minimum-size. Think: Cellar-holes..............under porches ...............pit-digging............indoor-fireplaces/walls............attics............pinpointing........Civil War trees.........school demonstrations/presentations..............tree-holes.,.,.,.,., . , . , . , and the list goes on-and-on-and-on-and-on. [[[ I have MANY more thoughts on this!!! ]]]

If Minelab does not want to make some sizes of coils, can't they make some kind of deal with an aftermarket manufacturer? They need to put the customers first, then the numbers will be there.
( I learned that from being 30+ years self employed)

possum........ there's a lot of truth to that; yet, that's a hard pill to swallow! (For Mkt'ing Dept.).

If Minelab made a few small coil sizes available for the Core, They would have a big edge on Deus, which makes NONE. They would also sell more Cores!

The little 8" x 5.5" Manticore (M8) coil is phenomenal ..... and in many regards!