TO: Dave Johnson, John Gardiner, Jorg, Carl

Your clad dime at 12.5" in Florida is totally unrealistic for other areas. Here, in Missouri, maybe 7.5"-9".

The discussion made me think of the possibilities of something like the Jeohunter 3D type VLF unit (~ 12.5 KHz) with discrimination, for general detecting, applicable to small targets and not caches or voids. But alas, by the company's own standards it would only locate a dime-sized object to 9", a nickel-sized object to 11", and a dollar-sized object to 13" with the 8 x 12.5" coil. Not impressive.

I'll be pessimistic that it is unlikely the best and brightest engineers from any major detector company would be authorized to commit research dollars towards producing a no-frills detector for open field use, useful only away from trash, which only gets a few extra inches in neutral ground. Not enough detectorists to justify. Continuing my pessimism, I also doubt that anything of substance will ever be delivered, even after decades of coil design and endless theoretical discussions by a handful of smart tinkerers as found on another technical forum. Neither the big guys nor the lone engineer in his basement with an oscilloscope has the wherewithal to produce a VLF to out-compete the current batch of top detectors.

Even if someone could ascertain a dime at 14", what confidence is there that it is a dime? How many will dig more than a foot for a false signal or a chunk of iron? Seems to me, with depth comes the need for discrimination - unless you just dig everything, to which you might as well be in all-metal.

Admittedly, it would be world-changing if a detector could identify a dime-sized target with 90% confidence down to 14+" in low-med mineralized soil. I think going to the moon was easier. If not, it certainly had more impetus behind the endeavor - and by impetus I mean money.

Johnnyanglo



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2014 06:44PM by Johnnyanglo.

Geotech Wrote:

> Tom, the detector you want is not a mass-appeal
> detector, it is a niche detector. It's the kind of
> detector that a guy who can afford to own 3 or 4
> models would buy, and that kind of detectorist is
> a 1% kind of market. The overwhelmingly best
> sellers on the market are detectors that have
> broad appeal.
>
> - Carl

As a very successful marketing professional, I can thoroughly understand your point of view, but I feel I must point out several important points:
1. The metal detector market is, by it's very nature a 'niche' market...i.e. a market for 'enthusiasts'. You can't predict what an enthusiast will buy. I certainly wouldn't have predicted more than a handfull of people would purchase a detector for over @2500.00 dollars...but they do. And the profit margin from one big sale covers the profit from several small ones. That single point is important enough to bear repeating: "You can't predict what an enthusiast will buy." Regardless of the length of the meeting.
2. Don't get trapped (like the camera manufacturers did) of only going after the 'broad appeal' in a niche market. It dilutes the Brand. Both Nikon and Canon have shot themselves in the foot doing exactly the same thing. They used the same logic to go after the consumer point and shoot market...forgetting the very 'niche' nature of their high end product line.
3. Marketing meetings can be the root of all evil. Don't be like the bankers for another Texan company (Southland Corp). After several meetings, the bankers told Southland that their idea for a new niche sales venue had no value, as "No one would ever shop there." citing several carefully thought out rationalizations.

Thankfully, Southland ignored their rational advice, and 7-11 was born.

mike

I have to admit the search strategy idea I proposed earlier would be more at home as a 'specialist' mode option on an otherwise very competent (and probably complicated and expensive) machine, not as a stand-alone speciality machine. Likewise, the "GMAXX2 - CZ" hybrid dual-freq machine is most likely to end up being one facet of a more versatile machine.

My cz's have filled my pockets lots of times over the years. Gotta love them.

May I reiterate my initial thread statement of:

* Needs to be equiv/similar to ~ XP GMP/Deus Ground Balance/mineralization ~ concept/functionality/handling capabilities. This will allow medium-high, medium, low, no mineralization handling abilities..... with reasonable ID accuracy..... at depth.

I'm well aware of 12.5" in Florida inert dirt.................. and 0.5" in Georgia lateritic iron red clay. (And a bigger coil will not ameliorate this condition)

I would fully accept 'said' unit....... if the ONLY thing it could do...... would be to identify the target as "not iron".........subsequently, not having any form of ID (no VDI display to tell you the approx conductive range). BUT........ then........ the unit would CERTAINLY be a steep/genuine (by definition) 'niche' detector. IF the detector could be capable of generating a VDI / ID ..... this would make the unit a low-grade 'niche' unit. . . . . if even at all. (I speculate not at all).

(((P.S. = Love the passionate well-thought-out Pro's/Con's being generated herein. This (collective brainstorming) is how we work through... to solution/resolution.)))

Plausible!

Make it a dual frequency so it will work at the beach. My CZ identifies all deep gold as iron.

Mike in CO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Geotech Wrote:
>
> > Tom, the detector you want is not a mass-appeal
> > detector, it is a niche detector. It's the kind
> of
> > detector that a guy who can afford to own 3 or
> 4
> > models would buy, and that kind of detectorist
> is
> > a 1% kind of market. The overwhelmingly best
> > sellers on the market are detectors that have
> > broad appeal.
> >
> > - Carl
>
> As a very successful marketing professional, I can
> thoroughly understand your point of view, but I
> feel I must point out several important points:
> 1. The metal detector market is, by it's very
> nature a 'niche' market...i.e. a market for
> 'enthusiasts'. You can't predict what an
> enthusiast will buy. I certainly wouldn't have
> predicted more than a handfull of people would
> purchase a detector for over @2500.00
> dollars...but they do. And the profit margin from
> one big sale covers the profit from several small
> ones. That single point is important enough to
> bear repeating: "You can't predict what an
> enthusiast will buy." Regardless of the length of
> the meeting.
> 2. Don't get trapped (like the camera
> manufacturers did) of only going after the 'broad
> appeal' in a niche market. It dilutes the Brand.
> Both Nikon and Canon have shot themselves in the
> foot doing exactly the same thing. They used the
> same logic to go after the consumer point and
> shoot market...forgetting the very 'niche' nature
> of their high end product line.
> 3. Marketing meetings can be the root of all evil.
> Don't be like the bankers for another Texan
> company (Southland Corp). After several meetings,
> the bankers told Southland that their idea for a
> new niche sales venue had no value, as "No one
> would ever shop there." citing several carefully
> thought out rationalizations.
>
> Thankfully, Southland ignored their rational
> advice, and 7-11 was born.
>
> mike

sounds like FT should hire you....

Tom D. , If you or anyone for that matter ever
produce a detector per your original post sign
me up I'll buy two.

hey tom, how big is your garage? i can perform all types of soldering, calibrate and fine tune using o-scopes, freq counters etc: i have some great ideas for a new machine but dont have the money to make anything a reality.

seems to me that the big 5 are being outdone by newcomers that are not afraid to think outside the box/break the rules!!!!!

most that continue to detect for more than a couple years end up falling into a so called niche market and begin to strongly desire a tool specifically designed with there type of hunting in mind!

chuck.

Dave i agree more people are looking for one machine that does it all.... mostly because the price of detectors are getting up there. Even beach hunting Tom.... ive always said keep it simple, thats why i dont use a CTX.... im not looking for a reason NOT to dig.... just something that tells me its not iron and deep. You mentioned our soil.... low mineralization, wouldnt a machine built for depth here suffer significant depth problems in say Ind. field hunting? Multi freq like the Explorer are a good choice generally.... just because of the tweaks that allow them to hunt about anywhere. Its a shame, but most new hunters are looking for bang for the buck.... much like eating...... they think they have to go to an all you can eat resturant as opposed to just having a good meal for the same price. That said i certainly hope the companies arent going the AT Pro direction..... i know keeping in the BLACK drives the train but what about the hobby? Id love to have a nitch machine that clearly out performs the Xcal as well.

Dew

Dew,

The unique/tangential/unsuspecting mineralization handling electronic architect/abilities of the XP series units is what allows it to handle Indiana (and most other) soils; hence, my bringing this up..... multiple times. Mineralization WAS a large point-of-contention; XP has changed this enough..... to open up the door.... for reconsideration. I'm not concerned about "inert dirt Florida" depths. The unit needs to be a bit more 'broad' in regards to how it handles (not all)...... but most soil conditions.

If we can keep the unit a exceptionally simple (KISS) architect; thus..... focus all engineering efforts on just simply 'depth'............. there's a possibility we my break through this 25-year depth-incarcerated plateau......... and achieve the next higher level of performance. (I speculate multi-freq requirement). It will (unsuspectingly) open up a proverbial door....... that will surprise even the most savvy/astute metal detector marketeers.

I can not think of a way to speak more clearly. ((Hence)) , my concerted effort for said campaign. I do not know of a way to NOT anger Chief Design Engineers with this (decades-running) quest....... AND....... at the same time..... INSPIRE them with quasar 'belief'. Yes........ it's that important.

It looks to me that the engineers seemed to have their hands tied. They are slow to make adjustments that would really help us. They seem to be stuck....I know there are enough people that detect and they have been doing it for years but I really think because of how our world is changing and how hard it is to find places that you can still work the ground I can kind of see in the USA this hobby really slowing down. It seems Europe is gaining on us or has and we can't really even play catch-up.

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

Personal opinion on wich current detector is the closest to the wishes.

Whites TDI SL.

Thats KISS in a very powerful and stable detector.

The single one feature in todays VLF detectors that can find things that are unable to be found by others at depth is the V3I s Mixed mode stereo. You can discuss Deus and fast recovery and its grounbalance disc all day, at depth it is of no use. But you got to be clever about the other adjustments and know what you are searching for and the matrix beneath your feet. You do not only swing the coil, you feel the dirt with it. The one ear signals are always worth digging. And the stereo mixed mode show the way to them better then anything VLF.

Gold is where you find it and the same for coins so in a heavy used park the matrix at 10 inches needs to be dug to seperate the 10K coins from the heavy trash inside the TR field.

I always wondered how well the TDI would work in stereo, low tone in one ear and high tone in the other. Mono in GB off. Easier to hear the difficult doubles ? maybe ?.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2014 07:22PM by OldandBold.

Get a well tuned ML Advantage with a WOT or other large aftermarket coil.

I remember a discussion on here about a new whites TDI..... didnt happen and turned into a personal project. So i guess making one might be simpler than getting into the field. Seems companies like MineLab would rather LAY UP... or play it safe if they have a large part of the market already. Its amazed me how many water hunters down here have jumped on that band wagon at the price. Sometimes its more about having the alledged best.... not that its anymore capable based on end of day finds comparisons. Multi freq machine would be interesting for us beach hunters. But having owned the DFX found it to be deeper when switching to one of the single freq options..... something i do like about whites. The Deus has a lot of potentional it seems with several freq.... now add another option to combine and run two of those freqs and it just might compete with a Sov on the beach in or near the water.

Dew

Dew, I agree with your comments, though ML did just come out with the new SDC2300. As you say I'd be interested in seeing
your finds with a Sov at the end of the day vs someone using the ML machine....you'd probably do better since the other guy
will have wasted a lot of time digging deep small metal bits...

You need to give a nautilus DMC 2B a spin....The V3i is nice too, but they didnt quite get it to the DMC sound quality with their Dual mode when comparing it to the Nautilus...Whites is loosing the nuance in the difital audio report that the nauitlus offers in the analog audio..

Nothing has been made or I guess will ever be made to replicate the nautilus Dual Mode ...Tonal bliss...DEEEEEEEP!!!!

Dying breed..Im afraid..

Keith

In reply to Keith's remarks about the Nautilus DMC 2B, what's to keep a larger company from acquiring the Nautilus rights and FURTHER developing the Nautilus engineering and design approach to depth and intelligence?
They would have the resources to improve the interface, power consumption, weight, coil design (modernization), and ergonomics. And market; just think of the Nautilus users that just finally gave up and quietly moved on to other brands of detectors.

Pleasant Garden, NC
AT Max, Nokta Impact, MX Sport, Nokta FORS Relic, GPX 4800, Infinium, Racer, Deus, F75SE, Nautilus DMC II (order of acquisition, last to first)

Does an archeologist argue with a plow? A bureaucrat with a bulldozer?

I wonder if the depth could be achieved by a different coil design. How would a two box coil design work on a smaller scale?

HH
Mike

Mike Hillis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder if the depth could be achieved by a
> different coil design. How would a two box coil
> design work on a smaller scale?
>
> HH
> Mike

Is this what you are looking for Mike. [www.nexusdetectors.com]

Deep large relic capable machine and will find small finds to. Not any better in the deep for discriminating out small finds from the large volume of minerals and unwanted metals in the searchfield.

We praise the newest detectors cause a new batch of finds show up from masking but even deeper the mask is not to overcome unless we dig more, much more.

Here is an indipendant test of 4 known detectors. Ofcourse a test but still give some indications on what power to expect for those who have the need for such a detector.

[www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2014 06:05PM by OldandBold.

For what it's worth, the CZ transmits a single 5 KHz square wave(divided down from an internal 60.100 KHz clock). The RX or receive portion of the CZ circuit must receive this 5KHz square wave in order to filter it into its fundamental (5Khz) and 3rd harmonic(15Khz) components. These seperate signals are then mathematically manipulated(electronically) to attain ground mineral cancellation, as well as discrimination. When I see "tuned" I think of resonance or a tank circuit. At TX (transmit) coil resonance, the square wave would excite the coil and cause it to transmit nearly a sine wave. The aforementioned wave components cannot be "extracted" from a sine wave.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2014 07:02PM by Ed-CZ.

True, if multi-frequency is what you want, then untuned, low-Q coils are what's needed.
But if you're going for a single frequency, modest Q-factors are all you need. High enough for the sine-wave to actually be sinusoidal, without 'wobble', or other artefacts like noise, high-frequency constituents. But very highly-tuned circuitry can cause problems. It's more easily upset by small changes in its 'environment'. For example temperature change, knocks to the search-coil, maybe even humidity changes. And also changes in it's magnetic environment, that is to say: when the coil is close to the ground, the ground can upset the tuning of the circuit, effectively wobbling the search-frequency, with adverse effects on performance. I believe this is why typical coil tuning is not high-Q, something in the Q=15 to 20 area works fine.

I love when you talk dirt-e.

haha Ozzie! Sometimes I feel like the high school drop out here...oh wait,I am,lol. Just kidding, love this forum,nice to have an option to "found some clad".

Ha, lol, I hear ya Ray, I have a visual thinking mind. Converting their words into pictures turns into a cluster_ _ _ k.
I like reading it though......it's like taking a hallucinogenic.

If the Q is too high, the capacitors turn into crocodiles and chase you, man.

Oh man,yall are trippin me out man,haha.

Back on topic, I'm not all that sure the Deus/GMP ground accept/reject function is actually all that special, it may well function the same as a conventional machines ground balance. It just appears to work differently because the audio works in a different way. Note that the XP Adventis has the ground accept/reject control ( that's what distinguishes it from it's fixed-ground sibling the ADX250), but conventional audio reporting. People who have ugraded 250's to Adventis' seem to say it works like a regular ground balance.

I guess I'm talking to myself here, but if anyone wanted to make a GMAXX2 / CZ chimaera, start with a CZ (probably a CZ5 as it's circuit is available on the web) and hack it to use the (conveniently socketed) microcontroller from the GMAXX2. I've not seen any GMP/GMAXX circuits published, and I've not hacked mine in any serious way.

Pimento,
What do you mean when you say that you have not hacked yours in any serious way? What adjustments are not a serious adjustment to any machine?...Stuart