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On my mind -- Random Thoughts

Posted by NASA-Tom 
On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 02:55AM
* What detector flavor will it be THIS week???

* If the Minelab's are 1.5Khz - 100Khz....... why are these units not 'hot' on micro-jewelry (especially with 100Khz). ( !!! )

* Very brilliant/passionate minds (and eager to share) on this forum. Stunning.

* Winter blues onset evident! (via tension - frustration - passion - stir.crazy!) ((( The personalities on this forum are full broadband spectrum! )))

* Funny how 20 (or even 30) year-old units are making a comeback..... esp w/respect to depth. (Have we gained any depth in the past 20/30 years?).

* Mixed feelings about Nokta posting on this forum (multiple reasons)...... but......... willing to turn a blind-eye.......... as they are not bragging about how great they are (or how superior their detectors are)...... and are (not quite) 'pushing' sales; rather, looking/asking for engineering/concept input.

* Less than 1% of the folks that buy detectors in this world.......... are on any forums. And the detectorists/folks on this specific forum (percentage-wise) are even less. BUT/HOWEVER: the intelligence conveyed/imparted on this forum is priceless data to Manufacturers.... and paves the road to human advancement in many regards. On this planet Earth that we share.......... there are unfathomable secrets beyond belief/comprehension in the dirt beneath our very own feet. . . . . . (((of which is taken too lightly))).

* It's good to see the shared communications of all the stengths/weakness' of different brands/units........ and no hard feelings imparted because someone has a 'old, favorite' love/passion in their heart for a Whites, or Garrett, or Tesoro, or Minelab or, or, or........... etc....

* Air tests are more important then perceived; yet........... yes............... disqualifying variables (however less) can still be induced. . . . if precautions are not employed.

* Where is KC Steve?

* Freedom of Speech.............. Freedom of Speech.................. Freedom of Speech!!!!!! Have-at-it........ Gent's!!!!!!!!!
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 03:03AM
I consider this a 5-star metal detecting forum!!!
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 03:08AM
It is a great forum to just kick back and read what is new what was going to be new but is really just a fix of what was old. And now the Racer...I think we are willing to see this through and hope for the best. They have been very good about hearing what we have to say and responding. So they deserve a chance. What will happen after the realease of their new racer will be interesting to read about and we all hope it has something new that works and gets us a bit closer to what we all want.

This forum for the most part is controled in the right way no one seems to over do it and if they cross the line they know when to stop....So lets just keep moving forward and see what happens this year. Any new US units coming out? What will deus do? And the Racer big jump or just a bump? All great reading for me and fun to learn from all of you. Sometimes a bit over my head but then someone comes along and explaines it so we can all understand...Best forum TOM you have done a great job..

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 03:44AM
If the Minelab's are 1.5Khz - 100Khz....... why are these units not 'hot' on micro-jewelry (especially with 100Khz). ( !!! )

In my milarkist opinion, the ML FBS advertising led to false expectations based on the idea that the detector is transmitting useful high frequencies that could be interpreted as good for gold nuggets or micro-jewlery, and other low conductors. It would be great if that were the case, but all the evidence is that it is more a marketing ploy than actual physics at work.

The detector does transmit a multitude of frequencies, a rather long chain of harmonic frequencies in fact. But the only two that are measured and used by the in-phase and quadrature demodulators are the 3.125kHz and 25.0kHz, which are the primary and a harmonic. The other harmonics are there in the mix, but much weaker, and aren't used, even though they are part of the transmitted wave (they represent wasted energy).

The 25kHz would be useful for driving eddies in otherwise poor conductors if it had more power - but being the 8th harmonic (I think) it isn't going to work as well as a single freq detector operating at 71kHz like the GB2, or the White's Gold Master GMT at 48kHz, or even a lower freq detector like the GB Pro/DP at 19kHz, etc., which more efficiently uses its available power at a single freq.

Since micro-jewelry has very little surface area for eddy currents to form, their secondary magnetic field strength will be pitiful weak, and thus such jewelry needs rapid polarity reversals that high freqs afford, that drives a higher target voltage, to get the surface electrons moving. The setup of the tank circuit to detect subtle inductance changes would also be important, so any change in loop inductance will unbalance the null coupling (xmit-receive-target) to drive a voltage in the receive coil. It is likely the FBS detectors aren't as sensitive in this regard as a single-freq detector - another reason it is not ideal for weak conductors.

Yet one other issue would be for the problem on saltwater beaches where the salt is activated (by water), for the detector's GB to deal with both conductive salts in the soil (mostly resistive R) and magnetic black sands (reactive, +X) at the same time without loss to sensitivity. So, under those conditions even a high-freq single-freq detector may not be suited for finding micro-gold, and the field of contenders is narrowed substantially.
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 03:45AM
I still use some old outdated White's and Tesoro metal detectors, I have hunted with friends with some high dollar units and did not feel outgunned. My oldest Tesoro is a really hot version of the INCA (circa 1983), 8 inch dimes with the 8" coil have been easy targets with some room left over. My oldest White's is a 1994 model 5900 Di Pro SL with the composite board, it is real deep when the Signal Balance is set high and Ground Balance set just a tiny bit positive. It has tagged an 8 inch gold ring and a 9 inch buffalo nickel, so much for the belief that a low operating frequency of 6.59 kHz is not sensitive to low conductors.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2015 03:46AM by Hombre.
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 03:56AM
You know what makes the Nokta rep different Tom - if you voiced concerns to her and offered advice on how to be present and not step over a line she would listen. I wish every company had a rep here just to answer questions or ask questions but leave the sales talk at the door. People obviously crave the ability to communicate but mostly to be listened to.

Truly a great forum Tom, your baby and you have every right to be proud of it. Thank you!
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 03:58AM
What Lowboy said xs2!

And thank you Tom for this great forum ;-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2015 04:00AM by MichiganRelicHunter.
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 04:09AM
I miss NasaTom's technical input!!!!! I have spoken with Mr. Dankowski on the phone and can attest to the fact that he is VERY passionate about knowledge shared/ knowledge gained. It's an honor to know the man. It's an honor to be a member of this great forum.
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 04:42AM
This is my absolute favorite forum. It's full of serious cutting edge detectorists and I'm very greatful for it. Thanks Tom. And thanks to all the pros on here for all the videos and explaining of the different machines abilities.

I was also thinking about the FBS technology and think it's only in its infancy of where it could/will go. Obviously they don't respond to small gold like a higher khz vlf machine should which leads me to believe they are only processing afew of the lower frequencies while all the other transmitted frequencies are canceling ground minerals or something. I wonder if it's possible for an FBS machine that could have selective target modes where if you wanted to go for silver coins it uses a lower primary set of frequencies and if you want to go for lower conductors it uses a higher set of primary frequencies and if gold prospecting the highest set of frequencies in the FBS range. I've used explorers for years and they definitely have a place in my heart. I also think coil design will have to progress to get the depth to the 12"-15" in ground range on a dime size target. I was thinking of this awhile ago and the idea came to me while changing the spark plugs on my truck. Older vehicles used one coil pack and a distributor to send the electric pulses to the spark plugs at the presice time. And the newer vehicles all have a coil pack for each cylinder. Im not an electronics engineer by a long shot and I don't know if it's even possible but if there was a way to have transmit/receive signal booster packs in the coil we might see even faster processing and more depth from machines. I think multifrequency machines will be the norm in the years ahead if there's a way to transmit/recieve/process multiple frequencies at once. Imagine a detector transmitting/receiving/processing a selected range of multiple frequencies at one time and maybe by the phase shift/decay rate of said frequencies is able to process minut differences in metals/alloys. Maybe this would diferentiate aluminum from gold? We all know Gold jewlery is alloyed with other metals but I never heard of alumninum being one of them and there's gotta be a way to differentiate alumiinum from gold or be able to sense non ferous amongst dense ferous objects.
I hope this post don't sound too crazy cabin fever has set in on me as the ground here is frozen solid and I just located a 1700s through 1800s site with foundations but won't detect untill it thaws so I don't damage any targets. I hope everyone has a great year and I hope the racer is everything we want it to be.

John
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 04:42AM
Great forum Tom.....Thank's

post up while we can never Know what Tomorrow will bring....

As for Kansas City Steve....here ya go [kcsteve.wix.com]

Hes been quite busy it so seems digging gold coins and artifacts...

Great people on this forum...and I have had a great ride....

Keith
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 05:01AM
All I know is this forum has improved my detecting knowledge immensely. And since Im a red blooded,patriotic American,I really apreciate Tom's allowing us freedom of speach here. Thank you Tom and every member here! Ray
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 05:15AM
Yep we are a bunch of characters here. Some more than others lol. Thanks Tom for this place.................
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 08:22AM
The whole freedom of speech idea has recently been attacked in Paris by a few terrorists.
Anyone watch the global news?
France has been in turmoil for the last week or so.

Anyhow the culprits who killed the journalists with their terrorist attack have in the mean time been dealt with accordingly.
A few bullits drastically shortened their life expectancy.

So freedom of speach isn't something you should take for granted,... and even left unmodorated it can become a real monster.
People in stressfull situations can easily become enraged with continous spoken or written attacks at their situation/way of life, etc. etc.

This forum is great for mostly being self-modorating.

Flavour of the week detector and cabin fever,... we've even had a respected detectorist and finder of many nuggets base a decision on purely air-tests LOL
There isn't a detector test facility in the world that can keep up with Keith,... I bet even the UPS guy has trouble figuring out if he is coming or going.

The solution to this manisfestation of cabin fever has been a Lansky Sharpener for me.
A very peacefull pass-time, some music in the back-ground and just about all my knives are "cutting edge" at the moment.
A few short hunts on favourable days,... it's winter.

Enjoy the fire!!

HH
Johnb
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 09:17AM
I post more on other forums, but I read and learn more on this one.

Past(or)Tom
Using a Tarsacci MDT 8000, an Equinox 800, Deus/ORX & others...
with my brilliant Corgi, Sadie
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 10:19AM
I spend time on several sites but the first in the morning and the last at night is right here with a lot of time in between Reading some of the post on other sites it is evident the poster and responders to the post has never been here.

Best of the best.

Thanks Tom.

Dwight
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 10:54AM
I have a list of places I visit every morning after I feed the pup, have coffee and eat breakfast, and, in winter get the wood burning stove blazing. This forum is the second place I go after checking important e-mails. This forum has grown over the years and I'm happy that it has. When I open it up I like seeing the little red 'New' up and down the page because I know the reading is going to be worth it and interesting.

I'm not a contributer to much testing or tech stuff but I do detect as much as possible. If I were single with no ties, I'd probably be out west searching for gold, forming a little business out of it similar to what Steve H. does....almost headed that way back in the early 80's but decided to go back east,,,,no regrets.

I'm seeing the benefit of the 'flavor of the week' because it kicks up some unknown units to be disected by the guys that are abel to. It also brings to the forefront some company reps who we wouldn't know otherwise, like the Nokta gal.

Love the Random Thoughts post Tom. Most of those thoughts also pop up in my head and probably every one on here.

Wondering how this forum has become unique, naturally....It's not really moderated or controlled. Rarely gets out of hand. It's civilized, hmmm, pretty neat.
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 11:39AM
Been a long cold wet winter here so far. But the deer hunters have finally left the woods here in N.C. And Va. So the time to get out and play with the relic detectors has finally arrived. Kind of like a kid at Christmas now. What new Civil War or Revolutionary War relics will be added to our collections this year? For me, the decision of which detectors to use on each location on any given day is always rolling around in my head. I have confidence in each one in its own respect. The old CZ 6a, still deep as most VLF machines with accurate ID. Always a favorite. Maybe the TDI for a deep PULSE hunter today. How about the Vista Gold or RG 1000v2 for the really trashy areas....You get the idea, maybe I have more machines than I have the time to master them all. But this wonderful site built by Tom and all of you very knowledgeable detectorists is a treasure trove of information that has taught me so much about how detectors work and how the particular ground and mineralization effects on these machines. But reading the particular strengths and weaknesses of each individual machine becomes a real eye opener to me. So much discussion from each of you. And a special thanks goes to Keith and especially Tom for all the hours of testing and proving just what each machine can and can not do in certain situations.
Are machines deeper today than 30 years ago? In my opinion, yes. But only if you are looking at PULSE machines in heavy mineralization. VLF? No. The Nautilus is probably the deepest powerhouse ever built, still a great machine.
Thanks again for a great site and open discussion.
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 03:14PM
I think on the Minelab FBS detectors have the software processing chooses the three strongest frequencies, or the three that are working best somehow. All the frequencies are there but at any given time almost all of them are dismissed according to what the coil is seeing. It has been a while and this is from memory, but I think that is correct.
It would be nice if you could choose three frequencies manually on an FBS machine, over ride and just use whatever three you choose. It should be possible but it would just require some sort of bypass of the processing that automatically chooses the frequencies and then a process to just use the three you chose. I don't see it happening though. Maybe another company that listens to people a little more could make such a machine. IDK.

Julien
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 05:02PM
My dear old Dad always used to say two heads are better than one even if they are cabbage heads.....
Keep the info coming comes to mind ...sure beats the old days before computers where it was trial and error.....
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 05:08PM
Hi Tom,,,,Minelab thingy: IMHO without actually trying to do research on what frequency Minelab actually uses (dial up connection)....The only reason why it would be almost gold dead on micro jewelry would be that the fundamental frequency must be 12.5 kHz and 100 kHz is the 8th harmonic....The other Minelab marketing hype is that it is transmitting 28 frequencies ....Well there maybe 28 frequencies involved counting the harmonics in the signal processing but the harmonics are only transmitted at infinitesimal power and used mainly for signal processing the 12.5 kHz is transmitted at plenipotentiary/full power....

I really think metal detectors basically peaked in the 90's as far as depth is concerned....However the ergonomics have improved along with the circuitry using less milliamps so we can use less & smaller batteries....

Yeah I have been waiting for Nokta to cross the lines but so far they have been pretty good and have not really displayed any sanctimonious behavior...I do however detect the hidden agenda....

In closing, Thanks Tom for a forum that's pretty much open to just about any opinion,topic,brand,links etc...This forum probably has the most oldest people brought together in one forum...If you combined/added our ages and knowledge it would almost equal the dinosaur age....LoL....Thanks again Tom for being able to express my Freedom Of Speech....JJ

edit/PS: I have no idea on the flavor of the week also the frequencies above are only to be considered/used as a hypothetically answer since I don't actually know the true fundamental frequency....But the principle remains the same regardless..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2015 05:55PM by jimmyjiver.
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 05:59PM
I read this forum everyday. Yesterday, I finally had a chance to read Tom's articles. What a fountain of knowledge they are! I try to read as much as I can here because there is a lot of good info here. I plan to do some contributing to this forum once the weather breaks with massive tests of the f75 se v2.
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 09:00PM
I may not post too much but I always look in and like reading the posts... Good source of info pond side.. :0)
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 09:38PM
I don't get the time to post (or detect) as much as I would like, but when I do, this is the first site I go to.

This site facilitates open communication, which in turn inspires innovation, which leads to new ideas (and products?).
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 11:16PM
This really is a great forum. I learn more here on different detectors than anywhere else.

I thank you too Tom for this site.

Rick, N. MI
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 12, 2015 11:38PM
I wonder if politics in France will affect the sale of metal detectors or will we just have to deal with our anti american communist leader ?

sickntired
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 13, 2015 12:28AM
* Hmmmmm....... wasn't exactly looking for kudo's; yet, appreciated.

* KC Steve......... the link will not open up. BUT...... for him finding the gold coins. That was EXACTLY my (educational) intent with him........(due to his exacting era/sites) and it sounds like full fruition. Elated!!!!!! Mission accomplished. Would love to see a photo of his finds.

* I do not encourage/promote bad behavior; yet, Steve H. explosive short-fuse comm's....... Wayne's "expressive" concerns, Ozzie's brashness, Kevin B light-hearted apologetic persona, Lawrenzo's FTP relentless slammage (read = subconscious hunger), Keith's unshakeable neutrality/emotions,,,,, and a lot more folks (personalities)......etc................ certainly shows the priceless colours of 'Freedom-of-Speech'. Life would be exceptionally bland without personalities (aka... neutral colours). Never underestimate the true "energy/passion-differential" from one person-to-another. This forum would not have 'fire'..... if all persons/personalities were 'like-item' ditto.

* Johnnyanglo..... right up my ally.

* Where's my request-for-more-depth thread. I could never begin to emphasize the exceptionally high-order-of-magnitude importance of such quest/request. Did we pinnacle on depth performance 30 years ago (5900's, 6000's, DMC-IIb)???...... or have we advanced. Is it a paradox to seek a paradigm-shift in technology....... so as to ascertain more depth?

* jj ..... hidden agenda; spot-on. (yet minutely'/partially acceptable)

* Are folks unaware there is a 'home-page' to this web-site
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 13, 2015 01:57AM
Great site along with the BEST INSIGHT thanks to all you knowledgeable guys and especially "NASA TOM". I came across this site because I had narrowed my latest detector purchase down to about 3 and really wanted some info on the F75 and a guy on another forum was talking about "NASA TOM" so I googled "NASA TOM" and the rest,as they say,is history. My detecting knowledge has really been helped by this forum--and I even learned that we have a Foreign Legion here in the states.LOL
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 13, 2015 02:03AM
I certainly learn more here than on any other forum. Sad to say a back injury has been limiting my detecting these days. Bummer.
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 13, 2015 03:12AM
Whewwww! Feel like I dodged a bullet..thought I was gonna read " Deathrays aholism...or sarcasm" lol.
Re: On my mind -- Random Thoughts
January 13, 2015 08:07AM
Hombre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I still use some old outdated White's and Tesoro
> metal detectors, I have hunted with friends with
> some high dollar units and did not feel outgunned.
> My oldest Tesoro is a really hot version of the
> INCA (circa 1983), 8 inch dimes with the 8" coil
> have been easy targets with some room left over.
> My oldest White's is a 1994 model 5900 Di Pro SL
> with the composite board, it is real deep when the
> Signal Balance is set high and Ground Balance set
> just a tiny bit positive. It has tagged an 8 inch
> gold ring and a 9 inch buffalo nickel, so much for
> the belief that a low operating frequency of 6.59
> kHz is not sensitive to low conductors.


in my view,depth was adequate back in the 80's,
it's how to get between the "crap" in the ground,and find the stuff hiding there!
depth was sufficient back in the 80's!..ohhh i already said that!..ok!..detectors
in general,have made great strides in this area,along with coil technology,however,
it "has" to get better!

(h.h.!)
j.t.

(h.h.!)
j.t.
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