CZ owners - Salt training 101

If it's just wet salt..........the concentric will give a few percent extra depth on medium and large targets..........with, yes......the primary exception of wet salt AND bad minerals. Then...........the DD-coil will trump all. As far as 8" DD vs 12" DD for depth and stability.........it would have to be exceptionally bad mineralization for the 8" to trump the 12" DD coil.

This is a very good lesson on gold hunting.
Thanks goes to everyone, for the time you've taken to provide your experiences.
Mark

Tom,
I'm new to your forum but not new to the hobby and I have a question about P.I. detectors in wet salt sand. I have a 2100v2 and use it on Florida beaches with a coiltek waterproof elliptical 11" mono coil. I know you have mentioned in the past that ground balance adjustments in our neutral soil are not necessary with a P. I., as they do not affect the depth of detection significantly. My question is will the position of the ground balance knobs affect the sensitivity to very small gold and if so which position should the knobs be set to.
Your forum is one of the best things that has ever happened to our hobby and I congratulate you on your efforts to educate and enlighten us.
Regards,
JR

JR,

Fortunately.........the ML-V2 is very forgiving with minimal effect on small gold......IRT detection performance. BUT, you still may want to grab a small white gold charm.......use electric tape and tape it to a 2" piece of pencil......bring it to the beach........push it into the sand.......and try many different settings on the 2100.......and learn. What you will probably learn is that there is minimal effect on performance IRT the Grnd Bal circuitry of a PI.
Which coast of FL?

The east coast. Thanks for the info.
Regards,
JR

One of the biggest reasons for.... 'knowing how your detector responds to small gold'........plays a key role as to how & where you can/should hunt. If your detector can only find rings........it is strongly recommended to hunt higher up on the slope.....where the sand is more 'supportive' (hard pack) to these items. It is difficult to find these items (rings) down lower on the slope....and near (or in) the water..........as they will sink at a very rapid rate. Yes, there lies a MUCH greater volume of lost gold....the closer you get to the water....BUT......the bottom line is; they sink (out of detectable range) in a very short period of time. You can find rings down at the waters edge.....and in the water.......but it is most probably a VERY recent loss/drop ((( us beach hunters call this 'fresh drops' ))). If there is a agressive wave action/water motion.....this expedites sink-rate.

At this point forward, I will change the title to Salt training 102.

EXCLUDING rings..........what do all of these small gold items ID? This is another critical factor in 'understanding' WHAT you are looking for. I know I have stated this before; yet, there is more importance placed upon YOU......FIRST-HAND ....witnessing WHAT these non-ring items of gold ID. You need to know WHAT you are looking for (IRT the ID) if you are to have any success. This is an attempt to mitigate the statement: "gold is sooooo elusive".

Has anyone had a chance to test a Minelab Sov/Excal yet.....on these non-ring small gold items? ((( I'm not allowed to answer this; rather, it is YOU of whom needs to perform this test. )))

Tom

I just got done with my testing over the past few days. I took 4 items ( small 14k earring, larger but thinner earring that is open..that is, it does not complete the loop, a small gold tooth and a thin Jesus pendant). I will take pictures of the 4 test items and post them along with the results.

I used about 7-8 detectors in the testing. CZ3d and 6a, DFX, XL-PRO, Minelab Advantage, Shadow X-3, Cointrax II and for giggles, I took out my Goldquest PI too. Some of them are single frequency detectors and I know, based on where these gold items discriminated out, they would not hunt wet salt sand. You can with some, but you have to raise the discrimination past the point where these small gold items will be knocked out. My brother just got his Excal back from Minelab, so I am going to get it and test with that at some point.

I will say this...the CZ's do air test, compared to the other detectors, very well. They also loose about 2 - 2 1/ 2 inches in depth ( air testing) when in discriminate and salt mode. A little less when in all metal and salt mode. Also, most of these items hit as foil in discriminate mode and as the depth increases, foil/iron bounce ( I tested using my 3D first as it has the 4th tone for foil, making it easier to tell without using the meter).

Range for these targets were, maximum 7 inches on the pendant and tooth...1 inch on the larger, thinner earring that is not completely closed. Makes sense.

Were these 'salt' mode depths? (I presume so).
...And, if possible, put a somewhat dull penny in the photo.....so as to have a 'size' reference for all to see.

Tom,

I recorded the depths in both enhanced and salt modes for the CZ. For the DFX, I used the Beach program since it has a discrimination level that eliminates VDI numbers 0-8 vs a program I have that has a very low discrimination level. I am assuming Beach mode, eliminating that range of VDI numbers, may help to make the machine more stable in the wet sand. For the others I messed around with the discrimination level, since I know for instance, with the X-3 and it's pre-set GB, you have to adjust the discrimination level to cancel out the salt water conductivity. So when using that machine, if you have to raise the discrimination level above 3.5 to cancel out the salt water and have the machine run smooth, most small gold would be lost since all of the test targets did not hit when the discrimination level was in the 3.75-4 range.

I will put a penny in the pic for size reference. Hope to get this done by Wed-Thursday.

John

Thanks John. I think.............if I remember correctly.............the MXT (which should include DFX).................................needed to be placed in the 'beach' program AND ALSO needed the Grnd Bal substantially lowered.

Okay Tom.
"Gold Bug-2.........hands down...........for micro-jewelry hunting and for medium & light mineralization prospecting. "

How does it do with the 0 ground balance mentioned in lesson 101?
Does the small gold vanish?

GB-2 does not have enough Grnd Bal range to accommodate wet salt. ((( Although I have modified a GB-2 to do such......and.......small gold goes away ))). Mother nature (physics principles) wins again.

I'm waiting for lesson two.

Tom, in salt would large deep gold become like small gold to a detector? If all-metal is the best way to find gold in salt, then with a CZ21 in autotune, would audio boost set to max give an advantage over BBS on larger deep gold? What about the printed sprial coil on the Tesoro PI Sand Shark... would such coil design be more sensitive to small gold in salt? Would whatever makes the Garrett Infinium sensitive to gold nuggets on land also make it more sensitive to gold in salt? So many questions- such little time! CC.

I should mention that as a water hunter who travels to Caribbean several times a year, I am more interested in finding large gold in the shortest time while on vacation in the salt. I go with a group of 5 to 7 and we now use Minelab Excaliburs exclusively, because so far in those conditions they find the most gold hands down! Both the 1000 and 800 seem to find about the same. I have tried other water machines, but with poor results. I once tried a Whites PI Pro Pulse. My very first hit was a small gold chain! So I decided to dig every target and after 2 exhausting hours had about 170 pieces of junk in my pouch and no more gold! As soon as I switched to Excalibur I started finding gold again in the same waters? So at the time I felt a pulse waisted to much short vacation time on junk? I have also tried HH PI and Infinium and found only 1 gold ring with the HH. Perhaps I did not give a pulse machine a fair chance in the Caribbean? Perhaps they take longer to learn?

Yet I am always looking for a better machine, because I know places where there is deep gold missed by our Excaliburs. That is why I am very interested in this thread and subject. And now that I hear Excaliburs might null on deep gold has me concerned. So I try to imagine which type off/water machine would be better on gold in the Caribbean salt? Unless my thinking is wrong I rule out pulse detectors because they hit too much junk on short vacation time, or because my ears are not trained with a pulse? I also feel a vacation detector should be fast responding and with larger coil to cover more ground. Excaliburs and Infiniums are slow machines. I believe the CZ21 is faster? I have not tried a CZ21 yet and wonder if while in autotune and max audio boost it would go deeper on gold? Then one could cross-check in discriminate? I also wonder about the Whites BHID 300? A fast responding machine with larger coil and target light ID in all-metal. Online several declare the BHID to be HOT and deep on gold in salt. So I am leaning towards bringing along and trying either a cz21 10 inch or BHID 300 12 inch on my next trip and hunting in the AM mode? Any thoughts or suggestions? CC.

You will get a lot of great information here. I know we corresponded before on the PI's since I have used several on the NJ beaches I hunt. I agree that a lot of times the PI's end up getting a lot of junk with no reward, but I feel they are still deeper in salt water than the VLF's but sometimes deeper isn't everything.

The BHID300 is a great detector,and I found much deeper and more sensitive to smaller objects of all conductivity ranges in all metal. Thing is, you cannot always trust the lights, as I have dug some deep non-iron targets with the red light flashing. With that machine, I found you should really dig all the faint, deep hits in all metal regardless of what light is flashing. I am kinda mad I sold mine, but the 12 inch coil was hard for me to control. The machine pin points dead accurate, and it does have a fast recovery, so it may be a unit you would want to consider.

JC

CC.........Stick with your Minelab....but try the all-metal mode ...... and run it wide-open. Yes, there will be a learning curve..... but it'll teach you a bunch! A CZ-20/21 in salt mode & Excal with same size coil ... are VERY close in overall performance. Yes, the Minelabs can 'null' on "fringe" targets whether it's small gold, large gold (at fringe depths) or any other type of target; regardless of ferrous/non-ferrous. Bottom line is: almost all VLF units are small gold-dead in the wet salt. PI's 'start' to have a chance at small gold......depending on how they are electronically config'd.

....You can have all the large men's gold rings! I'll take all the (much) smaller women's gold rings! ((( Ratio/percentage-wise..... the women's rings have the most stones ))).

Outta time!

Guys, thanks for your responses. I do want to bring a new machine along on my next trip to test on deeper gold in saltwater. Actually I would love to bring several to test in Caribbean field conditions. But when I travel I bring 2 Minelabs, 1 as back-up. With airline weight/baggage restrictions bringing a 3rd or more detectors becomes difficult.

I'm torn between trying a pulse and vlf and am thinking about 4 machines. For the pulse either a Garrett Sea Hunter II with 14 coil or the Whites 12 inch Dual Field. I'm leaning towards the Garrett because of changeable coils and better quality headphones that fit over my ears. For the VLF it's between the Whites BHID 300 and CZ21 10 inch. I'm leaning towards the BHID, but still wonder if the Audio Boost on the CZ might give an advantage on deeper gold targets in the autotune mode? If you can't hear it, you can't dig it, right?

I once tried an Infinium and found it very deep but too noisy. Drove me crazy in the water. I also tried an older CZ 20 8 inch but never gave it a fair chance. It would not GB and in Discriminate I had to run sensitivity at 3 to stop false signals in the salt. Thinking there was something wrong with it, I grabbed an Excal.

If I had to pick between the Sea Hunter and BHID today, I think I would try the Garrett Sea Hunter. The BHID might be too similar to my Excal 1000 in performance? Each island is different and this particular island for our next trip has been loaded with 18 KT gold. Most of it lost by locals and not tourists. There are fewer diamonds here. Several trips to this Island by our group is cleaning it out. On the first trip a couple of the guys found over 100 pieces of gold each in a week! New gold is lost, but I know there is deeper gold there too, missed by Excals. Plus half the beaches are nearly mineral free and the other half black sand! So far we have avoided detecting those black sand beaches and perhaps a pulse might open up new ground? The 1 time we tried drove my Excal crazy. But I will say I have been surprized at times at some of the small gold pieces the Excals have hit on in the salt!

I understand the basics about pulse delay and sensitivity to gold in the salt. Even though the Sea Hunter might not be the most sensitive pulse to small gold, I'm still interested in it because it seems easy to use. I think one reason we do so well with Excaliburs on gold in the salt is because once set, one simply detects and can ignore machine settings and still get good results. Perhaps with the Sea Hunter I would spend less time adjusting and more time detecting? Also on this island there are many, many pull tabs! With an Excal I know the pull tab tones, but still have to dig them along with all foil/aluminum tones, in order not to miss any gold. Some gold even gives high coin tones! I know this may be too good to be true, but the discrete discrim on the Sea Hunter sounds interesting. To be able to knock out pull tabs, yet still detect gold might up your odds when there is limited time and lots of tabs? I realize there will be some performance/depth loss, but less time digging foil and tabs means more time searching for that larger gold ring. We have found several 1/2 oz rings there! I still have till mid July to make my machine choice. The problem is that no single detector can do it all. There is 1 beach on this island that is more mineralized and full of trash. But gold too. Our Excals null every few feet- or less! Seems like the right place for a smaller coil to sniff out that gold! CC.

I seriously question units that 'claim' to Disc out tabs..........and not miss those gold rings in that bandwidth of conductivity. I have not seen a unit perform this with any success (thus far).

I used this for my test.

[www.americanrelichunters.com]

I still would like to know....

1, Does deep larger gold jewelry in saltwater responded the same way to a detector as small shallow gold? If the answer is yes, then whichever water machine/coil is the most sensitive to small gold in salt would also be the most sensitive to larger and deeper gold? Or do things not work this way?

2, On a CZ 21, would the audio boost set at max while in autotune, have the ability to report deep gold in salt, other water machines might miss? Just how effective is the audio boost on gold in salt? Perhaps it's not at all?

3, Would the printed coil design, like on the Tesoro Sand Shark be more sensitive to gold in salt? (Tesoro says their coil design is more sensitive to smaller targets)

Thanks for any answers/responses. I might be chasing ghosts here but find this interesting because, say the printed coil design on the Sand Shark is more sensitive to smaller gold targets in salt. That might (depending on other detector specs) give an advantage over another pulse detector on small gold? Then one could use the smaller Tesoro coil for small gold, and the larger coil for deeper larger gold in salt?

Likewise If the audio boost on a 21, alerted one to small shallow or larger deep gold while in autotune mode, louder than other water machines, that could be a big advantage? I know there are many factors involved and that people say lots of things, but I can quote one well known author who stated in his book, that a CZ20 in autotune performed as good as a pulse detector in salt! Quite a statement? CC.

CC get a Sunray 12.5" coil put on your Excal and run it in AM and you'll get far deeper then anyone in your group did with the stock coils. There's only a small learning curve using AM because most iron sounds so bad, when you get a small zippy target you can double check it in disc mode, if it nulls move on, if it sounds good or if it disappears, DIG!!

1A. Yes. Small gold at 'fringe' depths (usually quite shallow) will respond the same way as large gold at 'fringe' detection depths IRT dropping to a iron ID ........ especially in mineralized dirt/salt/sand.

1B. Coils do not necessarily function this way. One coil size is usually better at detecting small gold......and a different coil size is usually better at detecting larger gold items. And this (normally) is; small coil = deeper on small gold. Large coil = deeper on large gold. THIS IS ONLY TRUE FOR VLF UNITS. ----- PI units follow a different operating parameter; and to your advantage. One size coil detects BOTH best. In general; the larger the coil on a PI unit......the greater the detection depth on BOTH small AND large gold items.

2. None of the above. The audio boost mode has nothing to do with depth performance. It is only a 'volume boost'. IF the detector can just barely NOT detect a target.......because it is just barely out of range....................the 'audio boost' feature can NOT boost something that is NOT there. A weak target......becuase it is at 'fringe of detection' depths.........can be 'aided' simply by increasing the weak audio volume... to a bit louder audio..... indeed helps.....but certainly does not make the detector go deeper. Audio boost is only there to aid our not-so-perfect human ears.

3. Not necessarily. TOO many other factors ....... some of which take higher priority............over 'sensitivity' to small gold and deeper detection depths to any size/type of gold.

It would bother me to have to detect an area twice..........................once with small coil.............................then, all over again with large coil. Most of the time.............there's just not that much time in life.

And NO................the CZ in all-metal/auto-tune mode with all settings max'd out does not compare to the performance of a PI detector (apples-to-oranges). Yes, the CZ does trump MANY PI detectors..........IRT performance.............but not due to the function of auto-tune/all-metal mode. The CZ is just simply superior to many PI detectors to begin with....................regardless of any 'mode' of operation. Yet, the CZ is VERY BLIND to small gold.....as is Explorer's, Sov's, Excal's, DFX's etc.................

...........If you were to ever run a high-powered, properly tuned, high capability PI; all of the above data .......in eye-opening/stunning fashion..........would all become TOO clear..........in just a matter of a few moments..................and effortlessly, without any brain-strain. Your 'mindset' would be "changed" forever.

Tom

Wow, this is an absolutely fascinating thread and the reason why I love coming here. Been detained by other issues for the past several weeks, and it's nice to catch up a bit and find gems like this! Tom, did you ever get the Sov results you wanted for the tests? I can round up some micro-gold around here somewhere if you'd like me to test it at home or beach. - G

Do up a Sov test Gary ,the more info the better.
I have not got out yet and only have one peice of small gold.
Air test with CZ70 i lose at least an inch just swiching to salt mode.

No................... I'm still waiting for Sov answers..........but not for me. I already know. This is for everyone else...........and should spark more thread info.

For those VERY serious salt beach hunters, here is a very important tool/tester for your education. Go to Wal-Mart and buy a gold crucifix/cross that is at least as tall as a quarter. You do not need the chain,,,,,, just the cross. It can be 10Kt, yellow or white gold.... and hollow. They usually run around $29 or $39. This will be one of the best $$$ you spend for a educational tool. Tape or glue it to a wooden ruler/paint stick. Keep it there for the rest of your detecting career. Test ANY/ALL detectors in 'salt' mode ONLY! LEARN, LEARN and LEARN! Report your findings.....and what type of crucifix/cross you are using.

Tom

Hey Tom

I didn't have a large number of gold items available to test but did use a very tiny 10kt gold cross charm, a small heart shaped pendant, and a small gold hoop earing.

Set CZ3D in ehance mode, GB at 0, Sensitivity at 5, Disc 0, Volume 10.

Results

Gold cross 6". ID'd as foil
Heart pendant. 7". ID'd as foil
Earring. 3". ID'd as foil.

Switched to Salt Mode all other settings left unchanged.

Results

Gold cross 4". ID'd as foil.
Heart pendant. 5". ID'd as foil
Earring. 0". Undetectable.

I learned that in Salt Mode I lose depth for two targets and completely lost the lightest of the three targets altogether. I also threw a couple of ladies rings in the my own purposes and learned that of the 5 10kt items tested they all ID'd as foil in Ehanced and in Salt Mode...except for the earing which dissappeared in Salt.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2010 07:58PM by JeffNS.

Tom,

In addition to testing the gold cross in salt mode on the CZ, if possible, should we also test the cross in wet, salt sand ?

Last question...how would I go about adjusting a detector, such as my X3, Cointrax, DFX, etc. that does not have a 'salt' mode. I know in the beach mode program on the DFX, the program disriminates out the conductivity of targets that VDI 0-7, which I assume is where salt conductivity is, but I would think air testing these machines may not be as accurate as actually going down to the beach, ground balancing in the wet, salt sand ( of it the machine has a fixed GB like the X3, upping the discrimination until it starts to run stable without a lot of chatter) and then test. In addition, remember where the discrimination is set for air testing.

I already know the CZ's will not test as well on gold in salt mode, and also know where on the Cointrax the discrimination starts to effect the depth of smaller gold, but I think I need to get to the beach for additional testing.