For those of you that own a CZ (and other units); try this test.

1. Acquire a small sampling (about 5 or 6) real gold targets (not costume/plated jewelry). I strongly prefer these items be 10Kt white gold........but yellow gold will work fairly well. Do NOT use any rings. These items will need to be items like charms/pendants, open hoop earrings (not closed/clasped), medium-sized chain/bracelet without pendant, etc............ [ Small charms work the best for all of this testing.

2. Place CZ in 'normal' (or 'enhanced' mode for CZ-3D's).....assuming you do not have a CZ-20/21 of which is locked in 'salt' mode.

3. Perform a distance/depth check with each item........and write it down.

4. Now.......perform the same test again......but, this time switch the CZ into the 'salt' mode. Write down the distance/depth of each target again.

What did you learn?

You may perform this exact test with the T2/F75........but for "normal" vs "salt" testing........you will need the Grnd Balance to be on '90' for normal testing............then manually place the Grnd Balance on '0' for "salt" testing (this Grnd Balance setting is where 'wet salt' is tuned out -- compensated).

Minelabs are unique....in that.....there is no adjustment; rather, the unit will electronically compensate for Grnd when the coil is lowered to the wet salt; subsequently......the only way to perform this test with a Minelab is by burying targets in actual wet salt beach conditions. NOT an easy/convenient test! The CZ's and T2/F-series can be easily/conveniently tested on the bench........and produce results that are starting to become similar to real-world results.

The White's units can be bench tested in this fashion.....BUT.......just simply switching to 'beach mode' is not enough. You MUST adjust Grnd Balance to compensate for wet salt conditions. Same with many other brands of detectors.

This simple, easy and fast test above..... is CRITICAL EDUCATION.....and for more than meets the eye. Yes, you will learn about real gold, BUT, in time, you will notice this simple test 'bleeds over' into other (not so obvious) critical education points about this hobby...and detecting, ..... and, most importantly.......your finds and quality-of-finds will increase...........sometimes dramatically.

More to follow.............depending upon feedback/responses.

((( John and Raymond you will have your answer(s) shortly ))).

Tom

Thanks Tom will give it a try.

Happy to try the test...just need to get the gold!
Thanks Tom
Aaron

I'll wait for 102.

I'll try the air test tonight.
I'll be using my F75 at the beach again this year.
Thanks for the test and lesson.

It'll raise an eyebrow (or two).

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It'll raise an eyebrow (or two).


Please explain
I was totally shocked.
Awe struck to say the least.
Now I don't have the faintest idea of what to do. I now know I have a very little chance of finding small gold in the wet salt sand area of the beach.
My settings were
GB 90
sens 85
disc 0
DE
The small gold items that would give a good response (even though not at a great distance from the bottom of the coil) at GB of 90 were surprising, but when I changed to a GB of 0 vanished from detection.

I switched to all metal and the results were basically the equal.
What gives?
Went and got a larger gold rings to try and it rang out very well, but seemed to lose depth or distance from the coil when the GB was set to 0.
Please explain

A CZ in salt mode runs a different program that compensates for wet salt conditions and that mode is definitely less sensitive to smaller gold than normal mode. I always try to use normal on the beach ( always in the dry sand), but most times, when I hit the totally wet sand, I have to switch over to salt mode.

It may be that VLF detectors, when having to ground balance out wet salt sand, also balance out most of the conductivity range of small gold. Wet salt sand is conductive, and may give off similar electrical eddy currents that mimic small gold. When you ground balance to the wet salt, you are effectively discriminating out this range of conductivity, consequently discriminating out small gold.

I would imagine PI units compensate for wet salt conditions a little differently and since they are of totally different design in that they 'stop and start', meaning the circut sends out a pulse, turns off, and then turns back on to receive information back, it probably has a better ability to hit smaller gold in those conditions versus a VLF that has a continuous send and receive circut.

Just guessing here, and may be WAY off base.

TOM...HELP !

Based on therover61's findings/report, I'd be better off taking my Sovereign (same as Excalibur) to salt water beaches then my CZ-70 heh?

Cal,

This is my best guess as to what happens, and I would suspect that the Sov, when compensating for the wet sand conductivity, would be effected the same way.

I think since it has automatic ground balancing, you can't set the GB to eliminate salt conductivity for air testing, and that's why Tom states you have to test the Sov or Excal in actual conditions to see the results.

On a CZ, it's the simple salt mode switch, and I am surmising that the GB set at 0 on the F75 is where the GB is set to eliminate salt sand conductivity.

Like I stated earlier, I am only guessing.

Waiting!
I'm ready for 102.

Maybe nothing to worry about.
I usually hunt at low tide so any light, small gold items should be higher in the dry sand areas where the water was at high tide. Only the heavier gold will stay out in the wet area at low tide.
It's still good to know.

Yeah..I think the main premise of this is to make aware that when you are in wet salt conditions, and GB to the conductivity, or switch from normal to salt mode on a CZ, the machine becomes less sensitive to certain gold targets.

I guess to throw another variable into the mix, I am going to test in all metal and discriminate modes !

I do know this, there are a few machines that I have, that are single frequency machines, that cannot, no matter what, run in the wet salt sand. So, no matter what GB setting or discriminate setting I use, they are just too chattery and almost non-usable in that condition. But, run em up on the dry, and they can be very effective in getting the gold. They just can't run in the wet sand.

Good, Good, GOOD! .......I am trying to open some eyes. I'm hoping more folks can perform this simple test. I will reserve the bulk of comments for the near future.......but will say this:

The electrical conductivity of wet salt is 'nearly identical' to the electrical conductivity of 'small' gold. ALL VLF detectors that can properly compensate for wet salt have the same problem. The Sov/Excal/Explorer have the same failure............they are not immune.

"Small" gold = These would be pendents about the size of a dime....or a bit smaller. Fairly large gold chains. Large 'open' hoop gold earrings. Anklets/bracelets of fairly heavy links. Large 'charms'.

"Tiny" gold = Long and fairly (pencil lead) thin gold chains/anklets/bracelets. Medium size 'open' hoop earrings (about half-dollar to silver-dollar diameter). Medium sized charms (half-dime size).

"Micro-jewelry" = Small/medium/large single post earrings. Thin chains/anklets/bracelets. Nickel-diameter (or smaller) 'open' hoop earrings. Charms about the diameter of a U.S. 3-Cent silver trime.



.......Also, I am looking for xx-inches in 'normal' mode.............and xx-inches in 'salt' mode.....(this may be '0' inches!).

YES.....try the Sov/Excal in an air-test with some small jewelry.......just NO rings! ....... Anything but rings.



Tom

will try these tests as soon as i go to the thrift store and get some of the required tiny gold to test with!!!!! all i have is rings! very interested in everyone elses results.

Tom in your opinion which is better at the salt water beach on small gold, the CZ-70 or the Minelab sovereign?

HH,
Brian

Yikes !!!!
I did a quick test with the old Special Edition F-75 w/ Toms test above.
I had to put discrim on 10 to quiet it down because around my home today the F-75 sounded like a full blown Starwars battle. We also just had a passing thunderstorm.
Manually ground ballanced to 90, sens 85, de mode, waved some 14k gold charms @ the coil, got tones about 4 to 6 inches out depending on the charm.
Dropped the GB to 0, almost had to touch the coil to get a signal....bummer.
Switched to je mode and the battle was back.
I wont be wasting my time in the wet salt sand with the F-75...of course the dry sand would be different.
Questions-
If salt water GB is zero...
Am I correct in saying that the HIGHER the GB number, the LESS minerals are in the soil and therefore a cleaner soil?
And... so a higher GB (or cleaner soil) means the detector will go deeper and work at its best?

So if I'm understanding right, when the GB is at 0 (or highley minerialized ground) the gold, because it reads low conductivity, will be hidden from the detector or undetectable (blending in with the minerals). It almost seems that the detector is notching out or discriminating the minerals at low GB settings. Set me straight.

Ozzie,

I think the problem is the conductivity of wet salt sand and how it's possibly very similar to the conductivity of smaller gold, so when ground balanced out, you are technically ground balancing out ( ie, discriminating out) small gold.

I may be wrong, but mineralization is different than salt water conductivity. Now I know there are beaches where the wet salt sand is also very mineralized as well and I guess thats a double whammy. There are also beaches where there isn't much mineralization, but I would think the wet salt sand would still be conductive.

Now here comes another twist. Some beaches, based on the salt content, will be more conductive than others...and I would imagine there may even be parts or sections of the same beach, where the conductivity can change based on currents and other wonderful things Mother Nature dreams up. That's why it's important, especially with a manual ground balancing detector, to ground balance often on the beach since conditions can change.

One of the cool things about running the CZ in autotune ( all metal) with the threshold ( sensitivity ) up high so there is the constant hum/warbling sound is that you can just bob the coil up and down and determine if the GB is positive, negative, or right on. I find that when running in discriminate mode, if you have set it up and it is running fairly stable, and then all of a sudden the machine starts to false a lot more than usual, it's usually due to different ground conditions and it needs to be ground balanced again.

I am going do some testing like you over the weekend with some small gold earrings and pendants, on the 6a and 3D as well as my DFX in 15kHz mode ( that's a good mode for small gold), as well as test some on my Cointrax that runs at 12 kHz and document the results. I may also test the CZ's with the small coil too just to see if there is any better result using a smaller coil.

You guys are on the right track. Several things:

* A CZ and a Sov/Excal have nearly identical performance in the wet salt on small gold items.......or.....any size gold item...for that matter (basically; gold-dead). Some folks prefer the Minelab over the CZ.....and other folks; CZ over Minelab. They are TOO close in performance to make a difference. (Yes, I like to split-hairs).

* Yes, there is a huge difference between 'mineralization' and 'salt'. Two entirely different independent entities. I live in Florida.....and there is ONLY 'salt'........and zero minerals. Invoking 'salt' mode on a CZ is all that is needed. Bobbing the coil on the wet salt....and rotating the Grnd Balance does absolutely nothing. No audible change of any sort. Yes, it's a double-penalty if you have wet salt AND bad minerals. This is where a PI is needed. Florida is interesting, in so much as having different areas of beach with different % salinity content. MOST of Florida is VERY high in 'salt-in-solution'. Then, there are pockets of beach that contain lower salinity concentration. Temperature of the water is the key as to the allowable volume of salt that will be saturated/suspended in solution. The point here is; the higher the 'salt-in-solution'.......the more UNdetectable the smaller gold items.......................if they were even detectable to begin with.

* Yes, I shall repeat again; Small gold is darn near the identical conductivity as the wet salt.

* The Ground Balance number that the F75/T2 lands on.....after a proper Grnd Bal......has almost NOTHING to do with the amount of minerals in the ground. For example: One person may GB his F75 in Chicago.......and acquire a '56' for his ground balance setting. Another person in Tenn may Grnd Bal his F75 and ALSO have a GB setting of '56'. Chicago's minerals may be '56' and MILD. Tenn minerals may be '56' and HEAVY/SATURATED!!! If the person in Chicago were to accidently bump his Grnd Bal to....say....'59',,,,,,,, there would be virtually no loss in performance/ID. If the person in Tenn accidently bumped his Grnd Bal to '59'.... it may nearly kill his performance. xxxxxx Ground Balance numbers merely tell you the TYPE of ground....and NOT the AMOUNT of ground minerals. It is the Fe3O4 bar-graph that starts to show you the amount of mineralization........especially if it's magnetite.

* The bad news here is; there is no magic-bullet for small gold detection in wet salt conditions. I have had plenty of 'claims' of being able to find small gold in the wet salt with xxx-detector......but, verification yielded differing results. Several times, the person had gold PLATED items that were fairly small...and detectable to formidable depths in the salt. Usually....these items are plated silver or plated copper.

* Somewhere I have documented......if I remember right; Jeweler demographics, statistics and data tracking... shows that there is 11-times (11X) more losses of jewelry that are NOT rings. Said differently; Gold rings are lost at a "11-times LESS" rate.....as compared to other gold jewelry items.

* Food-for-thought = Rings are continuously being lost..... and are continuously being detected/recovered by treasure hunters. Pendents, charms, chains, earrings are continuously being lost at a 11-times greater rate......and are NEVER being recovered. Imagine the VOLUME of these gold items that have been lost throughout the centuries........and have created layers of accumulation.......waiting for future technology....to be recovered.

* Moral of the (current-times) story; If you are looking to find small gold......and you are NOT NEAR wet salt.....NEVER use the 'salt' mode!

* About PI's. PI's are JUST as gold-dead as VLF detectors. PI's do indeed operate on a different principle; yet, most are still small gold-dead. One thing on a PI that makes a huge difference is the Pulse Delay. If the pulse delay can be adjusted down to the 10uS range.....small gold items 'START' becoming detectable in the wet salt. Florida beaches ..... with its higher level of salinity......the pulse delay may be dialed down to around 8.8uS (8.8 micro-Seconds).....if I remember correctly. Any lower.....and the salt becomes a 'full-on' target. There are other things that are critical to small gold detection IRT a PI unit. SAT speed affects performance a bit. The slower the SAT speed......the better the detectability of small gold; yet, the slower the SAT speed.....the more unstable the detector to small variations of salinity deltas (changes). Transmit power is an obvious one. Transmitter 'on' time (pulse width) is yet another factor. There are plenty of other factors that can make a difference in detecting the most commonly lost gold. So far............Eric Foster has done the best in this department....with his custom-built, one-at-a-time PI units. I believe he is now retired. Dave Emery might have a trick-or-two up his sleeve; yet, still waiting release and field validation.

If only to simply go after the 'small gold' (forget the micro-jewelry for now).......you would be SHOCKED as to how much is out there! You don't know ...... what you don't know! How do you know what you are missing......if you can't detect it!

Tom

Also, , , for those of you that own a Minelab Sov/Excal.........do try the bench....and air-test some smaller gold targets that are NOT rings........and see/report what you find. Especially if you own a CZ or F-series unit......for comparison.

Tom,

If you don't mind, I am going to cut and paste this thread into a document for my informational purposes. Since I am mainly a beach hunter, this thread is extremely useful, and any comments or test results from those posting will definitely help me in the future.


Thanks to ALL who participate in the testing.

One thing that I see coming from this...it's definitely easier to get small gold in the dry sand where salt conductivity is low or non-existent. That is why I use my DFX a lot, with the small coil, in 15Khz mode. It has found a lot of small gold ( which I will use for testing) in the dry sand. BUT...can't use those setting in the wet sand. Won't work. Too much noise and falsing. Same with my Cointrax II and any other single frequency machine, unless you turn up the discrimination so much. Then some do work a bit, but all gold is lost.

JC

JC.....that's a VERY good point I forgot to mention. Many folks of whom own a single freq unit......and hunt the beach; subsequently, must turn up the Disc a bit so as to get the unit to run with some form of stability with the wet salt. "Some" Disc just so happens to Disc out slightly greater than 97% of the gold! What a HUGE handicap..............considering you are already at a large handicap trying to find gold with a single freq unit anyway. Many detectorists think gold ID's as 'pull-tab'........which is incorrect. And there is also a stigma that "gold is gold" and "gold" should ID as 'one' conductivity. A man's wedding band, a womans engagement ring, a College Grad's signet ring, a birth stone ring, 10Kt, 14Kt, 18Kt..........there all "gold" and should ID as one 'type' of target.......................................and that being "pull-tab". HOW INCORRECT! And there are MUCH more jewelry items OTHER than rings. Once again, over 97% of the gold jewelry in this world ID's as "foil".


.......Yes, you can copy this info for your own records......or cut-n-paste for other forums. Not a problem.

Tom

I suspect that, a lot of small gold also reports as iron in wet salt sand. With my CZ70 at the beach, deeper non-ferrous targets will at times bounce between iron and their true target segment. These are larger targets (coins, larger rings, etc)., so I would suspect that small gold, especially that which is already in the foil range in an air test (one segment from iron) will easily be down-averaged to iron in wet salt sand.

Tom you indicated that the Sovereign and the CZ are about neck and neck in wet salt sand, but would it be true to say the Sovereign with a DD coil would have a clear advantage (if say both machines were running Sunray 12.5" coils, with the CZ being a concentric and the Sov being a DD version of the same coil)? If from nothing else, the Sov would appear to be at an advantage from a coverage perspective?

Thanks and HH!
Brian

Keep in mind the heavy gold rings are still detectable in the wet salt sand area with the F75 GB from 0 to 1. I completely agree with Tom, the small stuff are not detectable with the F75. Remember the heavier gold items will most likely stay in the water because they're harder to move up on the beach unless there has been a bad storm.
The lighter gold can be easily moved by the tide and should be in the dry sand area during low tide.


ozzie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yikes !!!!
> I did a quick test with the old Special Edition
> F-75 w/ Toms test above.
> I had to put discrim on 10 to quiet it down
> because around my home today the F-75 sounded like
> a full blown Starwars battle. We also just had a
> passing thunderstorm.
> Manually ground ballanced to 90, sens 85, de mode,
> waved some 14k gold charms @ the coil, got tones
> about 4 to 6 inches out depending on the charm.
> Dropped the GB to 0, almost had to touch the coil
> to get a signal....bummer.
> Switched to je mode and the battle was back.
> I wont be wasting my time in the wet salt sand
> with the F-75...of course the dry sand would be
> different.
> Questions-
> If salt water GB is zero...
> Am I correct in saying that the HIGHER the GB
> number, the LESS minerals are in the soil and
> therefore a cleaner soil?
> And... so a higher GB (or cleaner soil) means the
> detector will go deeper and work at its best?
>
> So if I'm understanding right, when the GB is at 0
> (or highley minerialized ground) the gold, because
> it reads low conductivity, will be hidden from the
> detector or undetectable (blending in with the
> minerals). It almost seems that the detector is
> notching out or discriminating the minerals at low
> GB settings. Set me straight.

Brian,

I think you are correct in stating small gold and deeper targets have the potential to ID as iron in the wet sand due to down averaging. Those situations are nightmares I think the reason why PI hunters get a lot of targets VLF hunters pass over is that they dig everything and these targets may have ID'd as iron on the VLF, but the PI digger doesn't care because of the dig all mentality. The other reason could also be that the PI, in general, goes deeper in certain ground conditions like wet and black sand.

I dig all the bounces ( low/mid, low/high) on the beach most times unless I am in spots where there is just too much small iron and the time to dig every target is not productive. I don't dig repeatable low tones though, and I suspect I may have missed some good targets due to that.

therover61 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brian,
>
> I think you are correct in stating small gold and
> deeper targets have the potential to ID as iron in
> the wet sand due to down averaging. Those
> situations are nightmares I think the reason why
> PI hunters get a lot of targets VLF hunters pass
> over is that they dig everything and these targets
> may have ID'd as iron on the VLF, but the PI
> digger doesn't care because of the dig all
> mentality. The other reason could also be that the
> PI, in general, goes deeper in certain ground
> conditions like wet and black sand.
>
> I dig all the bounces ( low/mid, low/high) on the
> beach most times unless I am in spots where there
> is just too much small iron and the time to dig
> every target is not productive. I don't dig
> repeatable low tones though, and I suspect I may
> have missed some good targets due to that.


I've found many coins and some silver at the beach that came in as an iron to high tone bouncer, but no gold yet, although I suspect it's subject to the same scenario. I've also been rewarded with some deep silver coins while turf hunting with my CZ70 that bounced from iron to coin.

Brian,

That's a very good question.......and with a unsuspecting and incongruent answer. I spent several months on the wet salt ....seeking to find this answer. Now..............if I had to find the answer again..........it would take only an hour at the wet salt beach to ascertain.......because I NOW KNOW what to look for.

....First; there is a misconception about DD coils. It eminates from a semantic/definition of "wide scan". Because of this 'wide scan' term........the illusion is that it'll see a 'wider' amount of ground. What a misnomer! A DD coil should be called a 'narrow beam' or 'narrow wedge' footprint! You can pass targets underneath the DD coil......towards the outboard edges......and........if it's a good DD design.......the detector will NOT pick up the target........until it crosses underneath the 'center beam'.

....Second; and this is where the basic principles of physics start to kick in. A good DD coil is MUCH more 'focused'. All of its electromagnetic field energy is condensed into a 'narrow beam'.......maybe an inch or two wide.......by 8" from heel to toe (fore to aft)......assuming its an 8" coil. When a small target is passed through this condensed higher-energy field intensity 'narrow beam'.......it's more easily detected. ((( Don't forget this.....hold on ))).

....Third; A concentric coil is not focused at all. All of its energy is bi-directional. A 'cone shape' footprint above the coil......and the exact same 'cone shape' footprint underneath the coil. Actually..........its more in the shape of a doughnut instead of 'cone shaped'............but; we'll just call it a 'cone shape' footprint. The concentric coil actually covers (and sees) more ground.

This is where things get interesting...........and MUST utilize real-world testing to prove/validate actual functionality and 'useable' application. -- IN THE REAL WORLD......in the wet salt; the answer is:

A DD coil has a slight advantage (by a few 'useable' percent) over a concentric coil on finding small targets. A concentric coil has a few 'useable' percent advantage of finding medium & large sized targets at greater depths compared to a DD coil. The DD coils 'condensed' energy field becomes quite weak...at depth.........whereas, the concentric coil still has a more powerful 'wide angle wrap-around' effect at the deeper depths.

Yes, ESPECIALLY in mineralized ground.....'fringe depth' non-ferrous items have a strong propensity to ID as 'iron'. This is dangerous with the Minelabs (unless you are in all-metal).......as the ML's will 'null' over deep 'iron'.........when......in actuallity, it may be a deep gold ring that is ID'ing as 'iron'. Not a good scenario! And the higher the mineralization..............the shallower targets start to ID as 'iron'.

It is my strongest recommendation to hunt the wet salt beaches in all-metal. Yes, you even want to dig the iron. Fifteen years ago, I had a painful experience/education. I had passed up a particular (somewhat deep) iron target..........not wanting to dig a 2-foot deep steel bottlecap. Within thirty minutes, my hunting partner told me "you forgot to dig THIS iron target" ...... as he continued to drop a stainless Rolex into my hands.......still fully functional. Yep. Unforgettable experience. Since then.....I have found stainless Swiss Army knives, Stainless class rings, a gold Roman Torqx bracelet (with bimetallic spring-loaded center), stainless watches.....other stainless rings etc............
I am a strong proponent of all-metal whilst hunting wet salt.

.......Yes, this is WHY the PI hunters 'appear' to have more 'luck'. ((( It's not luck ))). The all-metal mode has a language all to its own. This is to ALSO say; your ears can actually ID MOST targets whilst in all-metal mode.

Tom

A Great Read . Thanks Tom

The DD vs Concentric but the Cz is concentric only.

Myself and others have said how great the Sunray 12in is and it is , but thats a low trash location.
Now how about high mineralzation.
Small gold 8in vs 12in wet sand on a CZ . REAL WORLD here we go again.

Tom that was a good read. I 'd always pictured the DD as a wiper blade type of signal, and the concentric as a cone, as you described. I wasn't clear on which one would get better coverage, but you've cleared that up, thank you.

I'm meeting a guy in our club who's a phenomenal beach hunter, for a beach hunt tomorrow (he uses the Sovereign with the 12x10 SEF coil). I'm debating on whether to take my CZ70 or Sovereign.

When I've used my Sov I hunt in all metal mode, and iron is typically easy to tell (sounds lousy). If I've questioned if it was iron or not, I'd switch to disc mode and if it nulled I moved on, but your stainless Rolex scenario is (somewhat encouraging to dig it all.

Brian

gman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A Great Read . Thanks Tom
>
> The DD vs Concentric but the Cz is concentric
> only.
>
> Myself and others have said how great the Sunray
> 12in is and it is , but thats a low trash
> location.
> Now how about high mineralzation.
> Small gold 8in vs 12in wet sand on a CZ . REAL
> WORLD here we go again.

I chose the Sunray as a comparison between the Sovereign and the CZ as both machines have a Sunray 12.5" coil, except the CZ is concentric and the Sov is DD, but being the same size make for a good comparison.

I know it goes against the grain and what everyone normally recommends, BUT I've actually found the Sunray FZ12 on my CZ-70 to be an exceptional deep turf hunter, even in moderate trash, I LOVE this coil for deep silver turf hunting with the CZ-70!

HH,
Brian