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Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 19, 2016 12:18PM
Quote
Good doctors don't take Medicare for long, they don't have to.

Under my plan they would have to because that would be all there is. Like the great quote in Road House " There is always Barber College".
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 19, 2016 02:35PM
goodmore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> Well first of all it wasn't Clinton:
>
> The signed agreement then needed to be ratified
> by each nation's legislative or parliamentary
> branch."]
>
>
>
> But the agreement was considered a success.
>
> A 2001 Journal of Economic Perspectives review
> found that NAFTA was a net benefit to the United
> States.[28] The U.S. Chamber of Commerce credits
> NAFTA with increasing U.S. trade in goods and
> services with Canada and Mexico from $337 billion
> in 1993 to $1.2 trillion in 2011, while the
> AFL-CIO blames the agreement for sending 700,000
> American manufacturing jobs to Mexico over that
> time.[30]"]
>
>
>
>
> Where it went wrong was corporate greed. The loss
> of jobs was not the fault of the US government.

Well goodmore, you are only half right "Where it (N.A.F.T.A.) went wrong was corporate greed." I agree with that statement. Your other statement is completely wrong. "The loss of jobs was not the fault of the US government." The BIG MONEY FAT CATS who decide government policy and tell the politicians what laws and regulations to pass for their benefits. President Clinton signed N.A.F.T.A. into law on on Dec. 8, 1993, and entered force on Jan. 1, 1994. Look it up, I did, I also remember when it was passed into law, being in the transportation industry, I actually saw the damage done to American jobs.
...Now that we have lost anywhere from ½ to ¾ "million" jobs and with the recent announcement that Carrier corp. and Ford motor corp. are moving manufacturing plants to Mexico, how is that benefiting the blue collar workers here in good 'ol America ????



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2016 05:06PM by Hombre.
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 19, 2016 03:42PM
goodmore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
>
> Under my plan they would have to because that
> would be all there is. Like the great quote in
> Road House " There is always Barber College".


There was also another great quote from the movie,,"Opinions vary".

Let's face it our manufacturing jobs being transported overseas is relatedly greatly to NAFTA.

Remember after the trade deal was signed,,, immediate affects were not felt,,why???

Because the fat cats had to see to it that manufacturing infrastructure was built in counties like China-- and workers needed training as well.

I urge anyone who can remember back in 1992 to go back and listen to what the gentleman said who was standing in between 2 gents,, one being Bubba, the other being HW Bush-- Ross Perot actually said NAFTA would bankrupt the country---- how right he was.

BTW, where are all the "supposed" patriotic CEOs who ran to the microphones and told us and the US government officials what needed or what could be done to keep this " grand theft" from happening???

Or is it these folks only care about one thing-- a buck.

And let's not forget the unusually high salary these CEOs have been getting during the last few years.

Maybe this bigger salary was indeed hush money.

The curtain is being pulled back on the grand theft-- ole Trump sees it and so does many others.
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 19, 2016 06:33PM
International trade is complicated.

Normal duty on Chinese goods would be about 44% if they, didn't have "Most Favored Nation" status. As it is, average duty from all countries who do have this status is about 6%. All but about 6 countries in the world have this status.

NAFTA had nothing to do with China, just Canada and Mexico. Repealing it would mean that Mexican goods would get hit with an average duty of about 6% since they still would have MFN status.

Other than raising prices on imported goods, it's hard to see how repealing NAFTA would bring back any significant number of jobs.

Removing MFN status from China would start a trade war and the price of danm near everything we buy at Walmart, department stores, Harbor Freight the Dollar store would go up 30-50%

You might get some American firms to bring production of stuff back to the US, but chinese products would probably still be cheaper than the US made replacements, even with the higher customs duty.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 19, 2016 07:51PM
I was in the electronic board manufacturing business. US companies would have all their boards made in Mexico, bypassing the taxes.
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 19, 2016 08:30PM
lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> International trade is complicated.
>
> Normal duty on Chinese goods would be about 44% if
> they, didn't have "Most Favored Nation" status.
> As it is, average duty from all countries who do
> have this status is about 6%. All but about 6
> countries in the world have this status.
>
> NAFTA had nothing to do with China, just Canada
> and Mexico. Repealing it would mean that Mexican
> goods would get hit with an average duty of about
> 6% since they still would have MFN status.
>
> Other than raising prices on imported goods, it's
> hard to see how repealing NAFTA would bring back
> any significant number of jobs.
>
> Removing MFN status from China would start a trade
> war and the price of danm near everything we buy
> at Walmart, department stores, Harbor Freight the
> Dollar store would go up 30-50%
>
> You might get some American firms to bring
> production of stuff back to the US, but chinese
> products would probably still be cheaper than the
> US made replacements, even with the higher customs
> duty.

International trade is complicated ??? That is what the politicans want us think.

Just like a 20,000 page plus tax code!! Who do this benefit??

Our presidents, house members, and senators are supposed to be our shepherds,,, but who have they indeed been shepherds for???

Just think of all the loot spent for example against Trump just in Fla.
Just think of who could have really used that money??

What we really have going in this country is a scam,,, with these 2 faced politicans sticking to us the average American.

This is not directly related to just one party either.

We see how deep even the Republicans have their claws dug in to stop Trump,,, wonder why???

And these same flea bags took his money-- and many even bragged about his success.

CEO salary in this country should be capped, by a percentage of profit...

This tax code was written by folks who indeed make back room deals, and take money from the fools wh want their money protected.

Lawyers and H &R block have gotten rich off of it.

Ever read an insurance policy??? Definitely not " See spot run grammar". Why???

Go back and look at the Hoover days,, look at how the fat cats were living vs average Americans---- and the bubble popped.

This huge disparity we see with net worth and income--- recipe for disaster,, for anyone with any sense.

And Romney, what a disciple he is,,, talks about Trump's inheritance,,,but not his own.
Where was he during the Obama administration days-- missing in action.
And his and others saying Trump is dividing folks-- but remember Romney it seems already had us divided with his good ole Mr 47% speech to the country clubbers.
He is just like his dad, I guess he come by his stupidity honest.
Maybe he is afraid he will have one of his car elevators taken from him if Trump is elected.

What we really need is some leadership in this country.
The more I think about it,, what we need is leaders for the African Americans and the Hispanics--- someone with some sense. They really don't have anyone. A good woman leader too wouldn't hurt.
These folks should be really non affiliated with a said party-- just talk the facts.
I feel there are some out there willing but the risk of just staying alive are somewhat low.

We have the brain power to make ourselves a better economy and also to approach the rest of he world --- our system though seems to always seem to thwart such brain power,,, for the power of the purse.

And while I'm on a roll.

C-Span is a waste of tax payer's $$.
I don't want to hear the loons speak, instead what I want to see is $$ information on audits of DoD, all government subsidized universities and colleges, all churches.
Smoke all this info out so we can see where the money really is.
And build a good tax system to capture in a " fair way" the monies.

I want to see how much for example a university has on hand--- to justify their raise in tuition.

This DoD bidding process is nonexistent for the most part--- and who pays??

I want all and any government shutdown to be applied to all but the troops--- this goes for the house and senate members.

These bridges to nowhere need to be smoked out.

And for the press--- you have plenty you can do besides sit around and give us your biased opinions on presidential candidates.
For example, go to a Va hospital no notice, go to some schools and talk to some 4th graders, go to other more local areas of our government and find out exactly what is happening.
It seems we always find things out via whistle blowers--- not by the press themselves.
The founding fathers wanted freedom of the press--- so PRESS get of your arses and get out in real life and do your jobs.
Funny thing is,, really the only time they ever get out of their offices-- is during election time,,, shame, shame.

I would encourage Trump if he loses--- to do one thing, start his own TV channel, and in doing such have a system where his employees are out doing real journalism work--- giving citizens real info and ratting out the corruption, getting the younger generations involved in this country.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2016 09:27PM by tnsharpshooter.
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 19, 2016 10:28PM
Intrenational trade is complicated. It is what a substantial part of every country's government (including ours) spends a lot of time and energy working on.

Complicated things are hard.

The DOD acquisition (Bidding) process is alive and well. Have a read through the Federal Acquisition Regulations (the FAR). I spent 30 years or so working as a Contracts Manager for various Federal Contractors. It's complicated - and for good reasons.

I distrust in principle any offer of easy solutions to complex problems - that includes but is not limited to Mr. Trump's fact-free blustering.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2016 10:58PM by lytle78.
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 19, 2016 11:24PM
Concerning reasoning and political argumentation ... some ideas to consider:

As it happens, all forms of judgment are cognitive processes: when it comes to politics it often thought the dichotomy is between emotion (liberal) and cognition (conservative), however that is not the case. The decisions to be for or against anything, including political stances, including all moral judgments, are decided between two different kinds of cognition: intuition and reasoning. Feeling anger over someone's political position is a type of moral emotion but it is really a type of moral intuition. But not all intuition rises to the level of emotion, most judgments are nearly instantly arrived upon - you do not need to ponder whether it better to save one person or five, the answer is instantaneous. But the intuition was not emotion-based, but rather an effortless moral judgment.

You might ask, who cares? The understanding of how we arrive at our political positions (really all our positions) explains why debating with reasoned arguments avails little to alter people’s perception of truth. Reasoning usually does not control or move the intuition to alter moral judgments. Moral judgments are based on intuition (not passion) and reasoning trails afterward to construct post hoc justifications (after the fact reasoning as to why we hold to certain positions, positions that are held automatically and instantly by intuition). It is possible to change someone's thoughts, when we are challenged by friends, that is, through social persuasion, the arguments of friends can persuade our intuitions, but not our moral reasoning.

What is he going on about? some might wonder. The intuition is like an elephant that changes its path only slowly, after consideration of a matter. Reasoning is the rider on the elephant that has the reigns and is able to react to the logic of an argument but cannot alter the unyielding elephant (intuition). Especially in combative situations where a person's positions are under attack, where both our intuition (which holds our political belief) and our moral reasoning (which works tirelessly to defend and support those notions, not to change them). Both are working together to fend off attacks. No logic can alter the opinion of an opponent in combat mode - never ever.

To effect change in another person on moral or political matters, you must empathize with their understanding, not vilify or condemn. The elephant is always in automatic mode, it is the intuitions that come first about any topic of concern - then reasons for that position come second, existing only to defend that intuitive position. In order to effect a change of thought in an opponent you have to talk to the elephant, not the rider. People will never believe anything that violates their intuitions, they will argue endlessly to find an escape from the logic you present.

For instance, your intuitive elephant holds its moral conceptions such that it leans or favors a particular direction, having positive intuitive reactions to certain people or words. If you say "pro-life" to a liberal, his elephant is leaning opposite to those charged words (which are pleasing to a conservative elephant). The liberal has conflict with the word, the latter is in sync. In fact, people tend to like or trust people who have elephants that lean the same direction (in agreement). Moral judgment is not thought out cerebral affairs, we do not weight out harm and benefits, rather it is a rapid, automatic process that causes people to be drawn toward things, or away. In fact, infants make moral judgments, having a preference for those who are perceived as nice to them (a six-month old baby watching a puppet show where one puppet is mean and the other nice, will pick up the nice puppet and not the mean one). The elephant starts making moral judgments during early infancy, long before language and reasoning arrive.

People do not seek evidence to disprove their stance on moral issues, we do not challenge our own beliefs. When discussions are hostile, the likelihood of change is remote. But if the elephant leans toward the other person, not as an adversary (then it would lean away and oppose any argument) but because the other person is likable, someone to be admired, or worthy for the person to want to please, then their elephant can lean toward their opponent. Otherwise, the rider (reason) will defend the elephant's position (leanings) even to the point of nonsensical and illogical arguments. Intelligence (IQ) determines how many clever arguments one can come up with, generating more reasons, but only to buttress their own positions, not to self-analyze them.

If I said that President Bush lied and deceived in order to arrive at reasons to go to war in Iraq, a right-leaning elephant will muster its rider to oppose that argument. A left-leaning elephant will readily agree that Bush meant to deceive. Reasoning is not there to help us find truth, but to help us argue, persuade, and manipulate in the support our own views. It is very hard to have people look for evidence to disprove their favored view, in fact, it is almost never done. We easily deceive and convince ourselves, and then cover up the deception.

From a liberal point of view, liberalism is self-evidently ethical, of course. Liberals want peace, worker's rights, civil rights, and secularism. For a liberal, the Republican Party is the party of war, big business, racism, and Christianity. To a liberal, the Republican Party is the party of evil. The narrative is that liberals want to help people but conservatives only operate out of selfish self-interests (lower taxes), or veiled racism (close the borders). When one side cannot imagine the morality of the other side, then the other side is not seen as holding sincere moral beliefs. It is this blindness to the moral compass of the opponent's position that makes a person incapable of seeing more than one valid framework for judging people.

Why are people so divided on moral judgments, to include politics? All cultures hold highly certain virtues - these moral virtues vary depending on the culture (city vs. country, warrior culture vs. farming culture, etc.). Among the differences between cultures, there lies a foundational or universal morality that various virtues are contained within. For someone on the left, spanking a child for disobedience triggers judgments of cruelty and oppression, on the right it is linked to judgments of proper enforcement of rules and respect for parents and teachers. Different foundations of morality are operating in the left and the right.

There are six universal moral foundations:

1. Care - compassion, caring, kindness such as protection of children
2. Fairness - justice and trustworthiness, such as anger at cheating or deception or the benefits of cooperation
3. Loyalty - patriotism, self-sacrifice, such as found in sports forming cohesive coalitions and group pride
4. Authority - obedience, deference, such as respect for bosses or professionals, knowing who is dominant or submissive
5. Sanctity - temperance, chastity, piety, cleanliness, such as avoiding diseased people, contaminants, or taboo ideas
6. Liberty - freedom from oppression, attempted domination, such as a bully or tyrant (authority figures must earn their trust)

Examples: hurting a child violates the rule of Care, profiting from someone's undeserved loss violates the rule of Fairness, criticizing your nation to foreigners violates the rule of Loyalty, disrespecting your father or mother violates the rule of Authority, acting in some disgusting or unclean way violates the rule of Sanctity, and accumulating wealth appears predatory on the poor (social justice is important to the Left) which violates Liberty. Abusing power (Authority) yet demanding "respect" from the abused offends Liberty (including the abuse of political power).

Where is all this leading? When these universal moral rules are applied to liberals and conservatives, something interesting appears. Certain moral rules are more relevant (important) to liberals than conservatives. It turns out that liberals value Care and Fairness most, far more than Loyalty, Authority, or Sanctity. Conservatives value all five foundations more or less equally. These moral qualities permeate the liberal thought process (their intuition) such that a liberal makes choices to maximize Care and Fairness. For instance, liberals prefer a dog breed that is gentle (the Care foundation value) and one that relates to their owner as an equal (Fairness as equality, an independent-minded dog that relates to its owner as a friend). Conservatives on the other hand, want dogs that are loyal (Loyalty, to home and family, but not to strangers) and obedient (Authority moral foundation, an easily trained dog), both sides equally prefer clean dogs (Sanctity).

Both sides, Left and Right, have a hatred of oppression, but is expressed differently. Liberals rely on the Care foundation heavily and see the Liberty foundation when they help the underdogs, victims, and powerless groups everywhere. Liberals seek to arrange Care and Liberty so that civil rights and human rights effect equality of rights. However, it is easy for liberals to move toward an equality of outcome (everyone gets an "A" on the test, everyone "wins". These are concepts foreign to a capitalist system as they are impossible under capitalism, which is why Liberals lean toward socialism/communism). On the other hand, conservatives care about their "group" more than serving all of humanity. Conservatives (and libertarians) hate tyranny, which is seen as a liberal nanny state with high taxes, oppressive regulations, and sovereignty-reducing international treaties.

These six universal moral foundations of the world are what drives Liberals and Conservatives to act, think, and react the way they do. The Left tends to rest on the Care and Liberty foundations: which include social justice, care for the poor, and political equality for various subgroups in society, and to fight oppression of bullying and domineering elites. Everyone cares about Care foundation - but liberals care much, much more. Liberals are more easily upset by signs of violence and suffering compared to conservatives (or libertarians: libertarians care about liberty almost to the exclusion of all other concerns). Liberals turn to government to defend the rights of racial minorities, children, animals, etc., seeking to defend the weak against the oppression of the strong. Conservatives hold to the right to be left alone and resent liberal programs that use the government to infringe on their liberties in order to protect groups that liberals care most about.

When it comes to Fairness, conservatives care more, but they want to see proportionality. Conservatives want to see everyone "pulling their own weight", which is only fair. It is fair to a conservative that those who work the hardest get paid the most. On the other hand, liberals are at most ambivalent about Fairness. It is not rejected outright, but they focus on Care and Liberty the most, and are willing to trade away Fairness (cheating, lying, dishonesty) when it conflicts with compassion or their desire to fight oppression (thus, Hillary's lies and crimes are less important than her plan to fight oppression). Conservatives are tougher on punishing criminals due to their emphasis on Fairness and proportionality (do the crime and you do the time). But liberals see the conservative's retribution for crime as causing "harm", and harm activates their Care foundation.

The largest differences between conservatives and liberals are in the Loyalty, Authority, and Sanctity moral foundations. Liberals are ambivalent about these, at best, while social conservatives embrace them. Because Liberals hold fast to only three of the moral foundations and don't care much for the three that conservatives hold dearest, they don't understand the motivations of conservatives. They assume, because they don't have these moral underpinnings, that conservatives are ignorant or stupid for holding the positions they do. They must be afraid of change because, to a liberal, they can only possess the simplest of worldviews and are unable to decipher shades of grey. To the liberal mind it must be because conservatives are either evil or stupid. To the liberal mind, the arguments of conservatives based on Loyalty, Authority, and Sanctity can easily be ignored. For this reason liberals do not feel the need to take conservatives seriously (which lends itself to mocking, name calling, and personal attacks by liberals). Conservatives value all six moral foundations, and can emphasize or understand the liberals defense of the poor or underclass, but the conservative's Loyalty, Authority, and Sanctity moral underpinnings leads them to reject the liberal's moral defense for their arguments or policies, as in most cases the Care foundation alone will violate aspects of the other three foundations most important to conservatives.

Believe it or not, studies indicate a genetic link that disposes us toward certain moral frameworks. From the earliest age such as nursery school, our personal traits were exposed to be different - whether we grow up to be liberal vs conservative we were exhibiting these differences even in early childhood. These subtle behavioral difference was the cause for adults to treat us differently. One adult might be drawn to the creative but rebellious little girl; others punish her for being an unruly little brat. The specific environment faced caused us to adapt in response, which further defines and sharpens their personality development.

Not fitting in at a strict school, constant battles with parents or teachers causes the liberal child to seek different friends (liberals with liberals, conservatives with conservatives) and different activities than the conservative, who fits in well in a highly structured environment. The net effect, via the experiences of life and the child's reaction to them, our initial leanings grow deeper and determine what kind of person we will grow up to be. It is the difference in the genes that initiated the way the mind viewed the world as an infant, but it was the environment that helped reinforce perceptions based on those moral foundations, such as Caring for the downtrodden that led their elephant to lean left. A person's life experiences reinforces the need to defy uncaring authority, power structures, and break the "chains" that restrict the Liberty of victims. The environment that fosters the Caring foundation causes a person to fight inequality and exploitation. Ultimately the fulfillment of the initial disposition of our genes and environmental influences is to usher in the liberal welfare society with equal outcomes for all. The moral framework started with a genetic leaning as an infant. It was the interactions based on the emerging behaviors that led the blossoming liberal to join the liberal team, to join the struggle for a "good" society in which individuals are free to pursue their self-defined happiness, and eventually this becomes the dominate goal, the only worthwhile mission in life.

But for conservatives, equally genetically disposed but instead toward valuing all six moral foundation (not just three as liberals are prone), the end goal becomes freedom from government constraint (Liberty), equality through proportionality (Fairness) where stealing wealth and redistributing it to the poor violates the rule of proportionality (you should enjoy the rewards of working hard), where Loyalty is crucial (to our military, to the country and flag that represents it), where Authority is not to be despised (subversion of the family and of traditions), and Sanctity is absolute (liberals replacing God with the celebration of promiscuity). The liberal and conservative worldviews based on the different emphasis of these six moral foundations cause the partisan opposition in politics (and life).

When liberals try to understand the conservative viewpoints, they have an impossible time. Liberals cannot speak to the Loyalty, Authority, and Sanctity with any conviction - they are rejected as moral concerns. To a liberal, Loyalty to a group means the exclusion of others and is seen as the basis of racism (thus, conservatives are always seen as racist to the liberal mindset). Person's in Authority implies dominance for the few and submission for the many, which is oppression to liberals. Sanctity to religious values is meant only to suppress sexual freedom and justify homophobia, to the liberal mind. When the liberal evaluates the conservative's values they shrink back in horror - only a monster would be against caring for the poor, homosexuals, minorities, etc., which it is assumed to be the default position of conservatives.

However, the conservative framework includes all six moral foundations, and while they can and do recognize certain liberal values (though applied incorrectly in their view) the conservative is quite able to show empathy for the plight of underdogs and to be moved by stories of oppression and suffering (not to the degree liberals are motivated though). But liberals possess a very poor view of conservatives based on their limited moral framework. This is because their moral matrix is built around primarily only intuitions about Care and Fairness (as equality).

Liberals tend to believe people are inherently good, and that they will do well when constraints to their freedoms are removed. Conservatives believe that people need constraints in order to behave well, cooperate, and thrive. Without them people will cheat and behave selfishly. This is why liberal programs often end in ruin, and why communist revolutions end up in despotism. The liberals' main moral foundation is Care, but it is insufficient alone to order society properly. Changing laws, traditions, and institutions to solve social problems sounds nice, but the unintended consequences of ignoring Loyalty, Authority, and Sanctity eventually leads their programs to disastrous ends. The politics of kindness, looking for government to protect the public and rescue victims from the evils of capitalism, sounds enticing, but in the end causes mayhem in the capitalist system. By decreasing competition and innovation, and restricting freedom of choice, the liberal often causes harm on a vast scale, including those the liberal initially sought to show kindness and Care toward.

The conservative’s broader moral matrix allows them to detect threats that liberals cannot perceive. Conservatives do no oppose change of all kinds, but fight hard against change that will damage institutions and traditions that provide the moral framework to society (i.e., the family). Liberals think it necessary to erase the borders and boundaries that divide us, no countries, no religion - then finally we'd all be one and we'd live in peace. That is the liberal Utopian heaven. But to conservatives that would lead to hell on earth. Religion makes us better neighbors and citizens, divisions bind people together into groups and encourage trust and discourages selfishness. Diversity tends to form social isolation, people living in ethnically diverse setting tend to "hunker down", turning inward and becoming more selfish and less interested in contributing to the greater community. The liberals’ zeal to help victims of oppression and exclusion, their desire to remove arbitrary barriers (such as race) combined with the liberals lack of emphasis on Loyalty, Authority, and Sanctity foundations, often lead them to push for changes that weaken groups, traditions, and institutions that hold society together. Emphasizing the difference between racial groups, eroding authority structures in homes and schools, supporting multicultural education programs and welfare programs, have had the effect of increasing out-of-wedlock births, crime, suicide, disease, weakened families, created chaos in schools, harmed the poor, and the emphasizing of differences between groups has led to more racism, not less.

So, you should see there are better ways to make your politics palatable to your opponent. If you want to argue politics, consider well the six moral foundations and try and figure out which one's carry the most weight in a particular controversy. You have to "listen" to what the other person is saying (and understand why their moral framework dictates they hold their particular positions), and try and empathize with their concerns. It is impossible to convince someone of error through angry arguments from one rider to another. It is the elephant that must be convinced to change its path, and that can only be done by prolonged influence of other friendly elephants (social persuasion or peer pressure). Good arguments from the riders of friendly elephants will work too if the person is trusted, admired, and cared for ... but never from someone out of a position of hostility.

You must first find points of commonality to establish some bit of trust if you care to be heard. When you bring up morality, try and start with some praise or with a sincere expression of interest in your opponent’s views. Otherwise, their rider will attack and defend itself with endless rebuttals, and you get nowhere. If you are a liberal, understand that your viewpoint is incomplete. Rather than judge and paint conservatives in broad negative terms (crazy, stupid, evil, unloving, uncaring, wanting to destroy everything) consider that they are operating on moral foundations you have rejected or don't value. Perhaps if you hold your intuitive anger (you just know you are right) and instead listen to your opponents reasoning, keeping in mind the six moral foundations, you might (and it does happen) find that their moral perspective is also a reasoned position based on moral foundations you have not considered. While your elephant may not agree initially, it is possible over time for your intuitive elephant to change its preconceived leanings and begin to open to other moral foundations not considered when "debate" was just one rider shouting at another.

john
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 19, 2016 11:51PM
lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Intrenational trade is complicated. It is what a
> substantial part of every country's government
> (including ours) spends a lot of time and energy
> working on.
>
> Complicated things are hard.
>
> The DOD acquisition (Bidding) process is alive and
> well. Have a read through the Federal Acquisition
> Regulations (the FAR). I spent 30 years or so
> working as a Contracts Manager for various Federal
> Contractors. It's complicated - and for good
> reasons.
>
> I distrust in principle any offer of easy
> solutions to complex problems - that includes but
> is not limited to Mr. Trump's fact-free
> blustering.


Well I disagree.
I spent 22 years on active duty.
Who picks General Officers in our military???

Do the best and brightest actually get the promotions many times?? No

I watched how the contract process worked-- nothing but a sham process.

I watched how contractors violated their contracts-- no penalty assessed, just looked over for political reasons
Good ole boy concept runs rampid throughout.

This what Trump refers to as our troops not getting the equipment they need, but rather what the politicians want them to have and made by who they want to make it for them.
This is very true--- how does Trump know this,,,,because of his friends in high places

General officers in our military are merely nothing now but politicans with stars on their epauletes.

I urge anyone to go and read about Ike's progression through the ranks. He was awarded stars more often than I change underwear.

Rather amazing to say the least.

General MacArthur was a real General --- and notice what happened to him,,, he wasn't politically correct enough.

I myself while I served was a front man of sorts--- making numbers jive to satisfy guess who??? The wing commander who happened to be a general officer.

And there was a TV article a few years back talking about how contractors who were performing road projects and time deadlines were exceeded-- no penalties ever ask for or paid

I don't live in a fairy tale land, rest assured.

Our military, our government has been operating under the concept of,,, what people don't know won't hurt them,, but when there is a crack in the armor where something they don't want us to know leaks out--- we get to see all the double speak and acrobatics take place.
Cases in point our very own VA system and the Flint water crisis.

Here is a link depicting just what we have had doing our shepherding here in the USA.

[en.m.wikipedia.org]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2016 12:33AM by tnsharpshooter.
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 20, 2016 12:40AM
I don't want to pick a fight.

My statements are based on what I have learned. I'm sure yours are to.

We have obviously gone down different roads.

I think that being pissed off about problems is not a solution.

Solutions are hard to craft, harder still to implement.

Anger about wrongs is a start - not a solution.

When somebody tells me that the solution to a whole bunch of complex problems is - "trust me- I'm a winner" i think of so many countries that were ruined by that. france 1800 - 1814, Italy - 1930 something to 1944, Germany 1933 - 1945.

It never ends well.

I don't want that for the country you and I have both served loyally.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 20, 2016 01:00AM
lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't want to pick a fight.
>
> My statements are based on what I have learned.
> I'm sure yours are to.
>
> We have obviously gone down different roads.
>
> I think that being pissed off about problems is
> not a solution.
>
> Solutions are hard to craft, harder still to
> implement.
>
> Anger about wrongs is a start - not a solution.
>
> When somebody tells me that the solution to a
> whole bunch of complex problems is - "trust me-
> I'm a winner" i think of so many countries that
> were ruined by that. france 1800 - 1814, Italy -
> 1930 something to 1944, Germany 1933 - 1945.
>
> It never ends well.
>
> I don't want that for the country you and I have
> both served loyally.

I agree on the serving loyally part.

Before any problem can be solved-- a problem has to be identified.

This is the part our government seems to have a hard part doing.

Remember ole GW, even after we realized we didn't have properly armored vehicles or body armor for our troops,, what happened??
Did he order the troops pulled back??? I mean ole Saddam didn't have an army, and sure didn't have an Air Force--- why the due diligence to continue forward??

I look at this current situation like this--- our government is getting a freebie here when it comes to advice,,, this support for Trump

Something is amiss, no doubt.

Status quo won't do--- the dam is getting tremendously full, pressure is building with our country.

Our political parties with their usual platforms--- it seems will not address the problems or will not address the problems fast enough.

We got lucky in 2008/2009- and if not for the election in 2008 with the results it brought-- we may have went over the cliff.

And just think, this FDIC was indeed invented, but will it infact work,,it has never been tested.

I've always wondered how will a bankrupt government even be able to guarantee folks money.

Is this or was this just another sham,, we been made to believe????
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 20, 2016 01:37AM
As for the housing bubble G.W Bush warned[www.realclearmarkets.com]
Here's our real problem.[humanevents.com]

[freedomoutpost.com]

------------"Cz's still bad to the bone".------------
Living on a big ass Astroid.
The woman that got my rib,I want it back.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2016 02:11AM by supertraq.
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 21, 2016 11:11AM
As much as I would love to see this entire thread die this needs to be seen by the people that want a wall. Or Trump supporters

[www.youtube.com]
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 21, 2016 12:23PM
Maybe this needs to be seen by people that want to vote for Hagitha,


[whatreallyhappened.com]

[www.nationalreview.com]

[www.theatlantic.com]

[www.wnd.com]
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 21, 2016 01:01PM
goodmore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As much as I would love to see this entire thread
> die this needs to be seen by the people that want
> a wall. Or Trump supporters
>
> [www.youtube.com]


It would be cheaper than paying all the money we give to the illegals. Fact!!!
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 21, 2016 02:41PM
Quote
It would be cheaper than paying all the money we give to the illegals. Fact!!!

You missed the entire point. It's not needed. It won't work. You have been conned by the Professional Carnie. Fact!!!
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 21, 2016 03:37PM
It's easy let god run for office so far they have nothing on himthumbs down

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 21, 2016 05:10PM
goodmore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
>
> You missed the entire point. It's not needed. It
> won't work. You have been conned by the
> Professional Carnie. Fact!!!
There ya go again goodmoore, spouting off like you are really in the know, insider info, best kept secrets etc. I do not know for a fact that Trumps Wall is made of solid barrier of a brick/stone and morter construction. I'm guessing an electronic sort of invention from Boston Dynamics or the government' secret technology unit...Darpa. Don't trust my word on it but check it out... they have videos up on YouTube. You need to think outside the box and that is where Trump just might surprise you.
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 21, 2016 06:14PM
So let me get this straight. You are accusing me of spouting off like I am in the know. I believe the people that made the clip I posted are in the know. I believe Mr. Trump is telling you something you want to hear with no regards for facts or the truth. You keep on believing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2016 07:01PM by goodmore.
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 21, 2016 07:02PM
I didn't say I believed in a so called wall like the Great Wall of China, just said it could be technologically done with the "skunk works" that the US government has access to. Like I said, go to YouTube and look up Darpa and Boston Dynamics, the weapons and surveillance we have today is mind blowing.
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 21, 2016 08:40PM
Double wall with Constantine/razor wire like you see around prisons in between the walls with plumbing on the second wall to release noxious gas remotely from and substation operated viewed via cameras. Something as simple as muriatic acid that is sprayed along with amonia is wicked.

------------"Cz's still bad to the bone".------------
Living on a big ass Astroid.
The woman that got my rib,I want it back.
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 21, 2016 09:22PM
goodmore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
>
> Under my plan they would have to because that
> would be all there is. Like the great quote in
> Road House " There is always Barber College".

Well one thing We can agree on, Roadhouse was a Awesome Movie! I love that line when Swayze fired that guy for bangin' a girl on His break. Funny also when He told Him ''Hell I was on My Break''! LOL!
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 21, 2016 10:33PM
Good read, JohnnyAnglo.

HH
Mike
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 21, 2016 11:33PM
The Pubs better get ready for Ryan as their presidential candidate. And this Republican is supposed to be a smart guy...

Reagan took Nixon's Southern Strategy used it to sell trickle-down economics... get a large block of voters focused on social issues while working against their economic interests.

Trump's connection with those voters doesn't merely come from the fact that the GOP has spent decades teaching them to react in anger - he is also riding on their growing understanding that the Republican party has sold them a false bill of goods.

Ryan's problem is that he cannot at the same time address the differing economic interests of the GOP base and his wealthy constituency.

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it."

A good article from the NY Times follows:

On Invincible Ignorance

Remember Paul Ryan? The speaker of the House used to be a media darling, lionized as the epitome of the Serious, Honest Conservative — never mind those of us who actually looked at the numbers in his budgets and concluded that he was a con man. These days, of course, he is overshadowed by the looming Trumpocalypse.

But while Donald Trump could win the White House — or lose so badly that even our rotten-borough system of congressional districts, which heavily favors the G.O.P., delivers the House to the Democrats — the odds are that come January, Hillary Clinton will be president, and Mr. Ryan still speaker. So I was interested to read what Mr. Ryan said in a recent interview with John Harwood. What has he learned from recent events?

And the answer is, nothing.

Like just about everyone in the Republican establishment, Mr. Ryan is in denial about the roots of Trumpism, about the extent to which the party deliberately cultivated anger and racial backlash, only to lose control of the monster it created. But what I found especially striking were his comments on tax policy. I know, boring — but indulge me here. There’s a larger moral.

You might think that Republican thought leaders would be engaged in some soul-searching about their party’s obsession with cutting taxes on the wealthy. Why do candidates who inveigh against the evils of budget deficits and federal debt feel obliged to propose huge high-end tax cuts — much bigger than those of George W. Bush — that would eliminate trillions in revenue?

And economics aside, why such a commitment to a policy that has never had much support even from the party’s own base, and appears even more politically suspect in the face of a populist uprising?
.
.
.
What we’re getting instead is at least the possibility of a cleansing shock — of a period in the political wilderness that will finally force the Republican establishment to rethink its premises. That’s a good thing — or it would be, if it didn’t also come with the risk of President Trump.


[www.nytimes.com]
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 22, 2016 12:53AM
goodmore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As much as I would love to see this entire thread
> die this needs to be seen by the people that want
> a wall. Or Trump supporters
>
> [www.youtube.com]


That was awesome! GO TRUMP! He tells it like it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 22, 2016 02:03AM
Harold,ILL. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> goodmore Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > As much as I would love to see this entire
> thread
> > die this needs to be seen by the people that
> want
> > a wall. Or Trump supporters
> >
> > [www.youtube.com]
>
>
> That was awesome! GO TRUMP! He tells it like it
> is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Makes me like Trump even better just watching the Liberals go crazy. Thanks goodmore.
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 22, 2016 03:56AM
Saw hillbillary the mutt barking on the tube,did a fire truck drive by?
Most intelligent thing she's ever said.

------------"Cz's still bad to the bone".------------
Living on a big ass Astroid.
The woman that got my rib,I want it back.
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 22, 2016 03:58AM
Rat Terrier mix?

------------"Cz's still bad to the bone".------------
Living on a big ass Astroid.
The woman that got my rib,I want it back.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2016 04:00AM by supertraq.
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 22, 2016 09:31AM
Quote
Makes me like Trump even better just watching the Liberals go crazy. Thanks goodmore.

My pleasure. Remember you have one vote. Use it wisely. And it isn't the Liberals that are going to screw your man Trump. It;s your own party. In fact in many open primaries Liberals are voting for Trump. They want him to win and beat the real competitors. He doesn't stand a chance in the general election and your party knows it. Come on back after the convention. We'll talk about your party and how you will stay home during the general election because they betrayed you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2016 08:01PM by goodmore.
Re: OT: Who would you like to see as our next president, and why?tongue sticking out smiley
March 22, 2016 01:41PM
goodmore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
>
> My pleasure. Remember you have one vote. Use it
> widely. And it isn't the Liberals that are going
> to screw your man Trump. It;s your own party. In
> fact in many open primaries Liberals are voting
> for Trump. They want him to win and beat the real
> competitors. He doesn't stand a chance in the
> general election and your party knows it. Come on
> back after the convention. We'll talk about your
> party and how you will stay home during the
> general election because they betrayed you.


I for one am hoping ole Donald gets the nomination.
He wouldn't stand a chance against Donald Duck
in a presidential election.He does so well now because
he brings out the closet racist vote and the same people
you see at a WWF event.