Here's the new Minelab Equinox

The White's MXT, V3i, F75,F70 would be more beep and dig types.

At Pro sort of in the middle here.

Racer series, Nokta FORS CoRe, Impact, Deus, Nokta Relic,,these would be the bleeder types.

This list above not all inclusive.

Maybe a good description of the bleeder types,,,almost like the detector is expecting the nonferrous near nail or iron by the way they respond.

Like iron tone gets cut off(partially) and nonferrous tone starts creeping in more prematurely vs the first ones I mentioned here.
Like the detector can break off of iron tone faster as coil is moved.
These detectors seem to all have the more zippy sound tonally too.

So where will the Equinox fall?
Actually if it would be more of a beeper, yet have very good performance in separation,,this would be a plus IMO.
Time will tell.

The Nok/Mak machines are open gate, meaning the audio is reported in real-time as the coil passes over the targets, hence the unique audio characteristics. It's almost an analog approach from a digital machine.

To my knowledge current FTP machines are NOT doing real time/open gate (or however you car to label it) they are all snap shot sample machines. Exception could be CZs ?

Not sure on the Minelabs, but it seems given their unique audio characteristics that it may indeed be real-time, not snap-shot technology.

To be honest, as far as detector evolution is concerned, it seems that the snap-shot sample method is obsolete and outdated.



steveg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ghound --
>
> Yes, I have heard Keith talk about this before...v
> ery interesting; I don't know though what examples
> are of each type, that I'd be familiar with. Is t
> he F70 snapshot, or open gate (assume snapshot).
> Is the F19 snapshot, or open gate (snapshot, I ass
> ume). An Explorer? Pretty sure that would be an
> example of "open gate." It seems "blendy" to me..
> .
>
> I think Keith prefers "blendy," but he likes the F
> 19 -- so I presume that might be an "open gate/ble
> ndy" machine, even though it seems "snapshot" to m
> e?
>
> Steve

Very interesting, guys. Thank you for the info.

Steve

Regarding "The depth of the target is displayed in the form of triangles, one triangle is one inch. " does anyone know how that works on deeper targets? Does the top triangle (or whatever that is) represent 10" and then 3 more triangles below that (e.g. 13" coin)?
I didn't see 13 triangles on that 13" coin. (13:30 mark in video or so) Pretty impressive. And later on it got a dime sized coin at 10" or 11".

the exact same trianges are about 2" each on the xterrra 705 so I would assume similar.

steveg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can you elaborate on those two terms, ghound? I'd
> like to be educated...
>
> Steve


Detectors process signals in two modes.
The first is real time, that is, the output of information of what is happening at the current time under the coil.
Usually this is the work of "Threshold Tone"
The second is postprocessing, that is, the detector collects all information about the target and gives the operator its conclusion about it, even after the coil passes over the target.
This is already what we see and hear as VDI targets, and this signal is always late.
(everything is very simplistic, but it should be clear to everyone)

Interesting, vfp7. From that basic perspective, I understand. The detector has to process the receive signal, if you are running it through some ID or discrimination circuit or whatever, before it outputs information to you. Threshold, you say, is real-time, and I guess in, say, pinpoint mode, you have a similar "instantaneous" type of audio signal going on? In other words, the receive signal is not being "processed," just "outputted" directly to the headphones?

But what then, is the difference between, say, a beep-type machine -- even if they are very fast, rapid-fire beeps from a fast, process-many-snapshots-per-second machine -- versus a more "musical" machine, like an Explorer? Even with the Equinox, the videos I have seen where it is in one- or two- or three-tone mode, you are getting just "beeps;" when there are many targets in close proximity, those turn into very fast, rapid-fire, sort of "staccato" beeps as the coil is swept over the targets, reflective of the fast processing of the individual targets by the macnine. But still, just kind of a "beep" for each target. But, when the Equinox is switched into "multi-tone," it's not "staccato beeps," it sounds more like an Explorer or E-Trac, i.e. that musical, varying, many-pitches-of-tone- blending-into-one-another type of output. So what is going on there?

Steve



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2017 12:23PM by steveg.

detectingMO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the exact same trianges are about 2" each on the x
> terrra 705 so I would assume similar.


this is correct per Brandon

Hope all are well. Haven't been on the forum in a long while.

Our favorite site is difficult to hunt, not due to the minerals/ground, but local EMI it would seem. My Etrac would run around 8 - 12 in auto, where my CTX runs not much better. I tried the Deus, and it did OK, but a little sparky and falsed quite a bit, but I learned how to interpret this over time.

I wonder if this machine allows a little more intervention into EMI filtering, as it seems it does by that Russian Vid. I'd love to hit my site with a machine that would not be as affected, but I guess you pay the price either way...running quiet to not hear the EMI and you loose performance.

From the Videos of the Equinox Ive saw u can tell its got the DNA audio of a Xterra and some CTX also..Yet more pronounced in terms of Recovery speed..

I believe the Minelabs are pretty much quasi open gated audio especially when they have the 99 or multi tone options..they may sound like they Run together but never actually seem to allow two tones On top of each other..

On the slower explorers and sovereigns they may seem to never have a break between the tones so seem like there continuous open but that's the slow recovery and elongated audio reports...gives blending but not really overlapping

Some of the newer units out like Makros and Noktas and At series Deus GMP etc can have the say have ferrous and non ferrous reporting simultaneously ..and can actually change tone on a target...I actually think the AT series may have some of the most blending of any unit made the way the tone roll jsjt envelops the high hits..

FTP audio is purely gated as is most all detectors...that is it gives a time stamp to a report and whatever that maybe it has to finish that report before it can start another report.Luckily the FTP rely on Lightning fast speed to overcome the slight lag...Some may say the Delta pitch is Blending and open yet however it may seem its still gated

Basically Gated means it has to commit to a hit with its first decision to report ...Open gate is its not committed it decides to change its mind while the tone is still reporting and BLENDS into a another tone and does just that,It switches to another tone Instantaneously..It does not hold to a time constraint however small the required time is for the required report it can still cut ti short and start another one...

The OPEN gated is more likely to offer Co-Locate unmasking on a small Non ferrous and slightly larger ferrous in same snapshot under coil Vs Gated that can slod signal co locates but maybe requires the non ferrous to be equal to or slightly bigger than the ferrous in the snap shot...

what manufacturers have done like XP and MakNok is they have taken the speed of say FTPs and offered blending open gate audio to see the more co located items and by doing this it allows for some smaller items masked to have a chance even if the items is used in terms of say a silver dollar and a broken horse shoe together..and by doing this it gives a SONIC picture of live audio mapping..

Manufacturers are starting to see the benefits of live Sonic mapping and hang on!! it will only get better...We will start to see manufacturers offer us more and more audio info sonic mapping wise....it may be the ones who have explored the target audio mapping take the first steps into offering also Visual 3d imaging???

The Equinox seems to have faster reactivity and once in hand we may see the quasi open gate Minelab DNA lean more to a Gated feel??I hope not!

But who can say at this point..

But rest assured manufacturers are developing advanced Live audio feeds and departing from simple beep algorithm's


Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2017 12:56AM by Keith Southern.

I wish some of the manufacturers would give their machines to someone that has the most knowledge and experience of how the internal workings of detectors work! I mean it seems that if you have a lot of Youtube followers you get to be the so called expert to test these machines out. Next Diggin Britt will be the Garrett expert! Some of the testers have basically just started detecting relatively speaking......................

Kenny
[www.youtube.com]

Khouse --

Agreed.

Keith --

Awesome. Thank you. Very good stuff. I would have thought "blendy" or "open gate" to be what you'd want, WITH fast speed, as a best-of-both-worlds, but maybe not?

Steve

Engineering and development test machines go to real experts who have a proven record of following test protocols - giving detailed and useful feedback.

So called “marketing testers” are folks with a “following”.. either online forums or increasingly Facebook, Instagram and You Tube. No real expertise - jist need to have lots of “peeps”.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2017 03:03AM by lytle78.

The marketing tester idea is genius. A person with a charismatic personality, and maybe an attractive female, can attract a lot of attention. Add in some creative video editing skills, and a few good places to detect for finds, and you have a hooked audience. Once they get the ball rolling and a fan base, the new sites to hunt practically fall in their lap...their fans often want to meet them, and open invite them to come hunt their best places. Detector marketing people were smart to catch onto this and put detectors into these people's hands. Why? Product recognition...and the audience sees all these fresh finds being made by these people per every video with their machines.

They could have gave some of us here a machine to test and post about. But all of us are hardcore and old fashioned...a lot of us are stuck in a rut of only a few old beat up places to hunt and we might not find much or might not find anything new or good with a new machine. With an audience, that is bad...because it isn't showing fresh finds coming out with the new detector. Nobody cares about finding a few misc pieces of broken non ferrous whatizits out of a hammered site...even if "They could have been buttons or coins". People want to see actual coins and buttons being found with the new machines...and that gets people wanting new stuff. Remember...detector manufacturers are only interested in the treasure found in the form of what is inside treasure hunters wallets. Haha. Aka....mining the miners.

((( Well said )))

--------------------------------------------------

Another one for you...steveg

WHAT IF........... A sharp Chief Design Engineer has figured out a way........ through multiple channels,,,, multiple frequencies........ certain non-incremental bits (out of 32 or 64 bits)........ of "seeing" the iron...... then finding the best way/channel/frequency/bit....to 'see' the iron the least.............. whereby/hereby/then .... allowing/authorizing the easiest way of NOT seeing the iron; rather...... enhancing/seeing THROUGH the iron.

Tom, is it possible Dave J. and his co-workers may be exploring/testing this type of iron detecting see through etc?....or the guys at whites maybe?

Facebook, Instagram, YouTube - the present.

The future? Who knows?

Forums.....old fashioned in this day and age, but useful, important. They create a record, unlike the others which flow by like a river - vanishing around the next bend - forums persist. Thanks to the “wayback Machine” (http://archive.org/web/web.php) - even long dead forums can be - at least partially - accessed, and then be part of our general deposit of knowledge.

We may be dinosaurs, but our “bones” will be around for others to study and learn from - unlike some of the others.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2017 03:29AM by lytle78.

Rick, enjoyed your thoughts there!

NASA-Tom,

Hmm. Very interesting, indeed. I dont know if you are referring to the Equinox, another project, or something you have working on yourself...but wow...

I was pondering if the "Multi-IQ" name was referring to I/Q data (which has something to do with properties of EM waves in polar coordinates or something, right?) And I could fathom how -- if I am right -- this could line right up with what you are referring to, no?

Hmmmmm.....

Further, I could also see how even if that is something theoretically do-able, that it may have been difficult at one point to implement, as such an idea would likely be very computationally intensive. Now however, with processors, etc. becoming smaller/faster/more powerful, I could see where such an idea -- if indeed possible -- could now, (due to technological advancements on the hardware side) be transferred from engineer's mind, into the small package that is a detector control box...

Hmmmmmm...

As usual, highly thought-provoking...

Steve

I tell you ...... for me when they came out with the smart screen 2d digits i learns so much about what i had been missing. I agree....... its going to loose something in real minerals dropping the screen and FE numbers. We learned to take the information from the jumping screen and CON digits to get that I WONDER moment where we dug some great targets. Looks like a step back to me even as a salt water hunter i like as much info on deep targets as i can get. Even at the price...... this machine would have to convince me as a serious hunter dirt digging that it can compete information wise with the CTX. I believe the 2d was what really put the MLs a step in front of the competition.

"a lot of us are stuck in a rut of only a few old beat up places to hunt and we might not find much or might not find anything new or good with a new machine. With an audience, that is bad...because it isn't showing fresh finds coming out with the new detector. Nobody cares about finding a few misc pieces of broken non ferrous whatizits out of a hammered site...even if "They could have been buttons or coins". People want to see actual coins and buttons being found with the new machines...and that gets people wanting new stuff. Remember...detector manufacturers are only interested in the treasure found in the form of what is inside treasure hunters wallets. Haha. Aka....mining the miners."

good observation Daniel...

It has always struck me and my skeptical nature (about a lot of things) just how easy it is (would be) to fabricate finds.
I absolutely believe this has been done in the past to some extent but the beauty is that it can/could never be proven.

but damn, it must be tempting (to some)!

mrb1268........................ I have access to a fair amount of stuff.......................... and there is something that is absolutely fascinating (to me) that is happening right before my eyes. I have never seen/witnessed this in the detecting community. . . . . and have only witnessed this a few times .... in other (non-detecting) arenas..... in my entire life. Right now......... as I write this...........,,,,,,,,,,,,,............. there are several Chief Design Engineers........(from different Mfr's)............ that are all converging on the same (artificial intelligence) point; albeit...from different/tangential angles-of-approach; yet, once again....... to converge on the same end-resultant. . . . . . . and............. all with VERY close/similar time-continuum space. I truly believe....with the advent of multi-social-media venues...... has largely contributed to the occurrence. Because I am (somewhat) on the sidelines........ I'm seeing/viewing/witnessing this... as a race. I am also highly promoting it..... as it is major human advancement. From one human-to-another...... our brainwaves operate on nearly identical frequencies........ even with all of our (so-called) differences. It is a Brainwave Fibonacci Synchronicity. Stunning............ to say the least.

steveg......... No..... I was not specifically referring to the Equinox. Also........ we do know.......that higher frequencies can really open doors in high-human-occupancy (and subsequent high-volume losses) carpets-of-nails areas. This can be coupled (nicely) with true simultaneous multi-freq operating platforms. (((And there's more than one way to skin-a-cat.)))
Yes........ microprocessors have come a long way.

Yes Steve you want fast recovery and open gates for trash work as long as the recovery doesn't become too fast as then it would be detrimental to the audio intelligence at some point..

But it's also nice to have slower recovery and open gated audio for depth in more mineralized ground..

An iron buzz enveloped in a hightone in mineral is better than a clipped high tone or no tone at all...

when you use Blending open gate audio and add it to other option like Bleedy filters and have ability to speed up or slow down recovery speeds you can do more towards unlocking sites ...

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

NASA Tom quote
"Engineers........(from different Mfr's)............ that are all converging on the same (artificial intelligence) point; albeit...from different/tangential angles-of-approach; yet, once again....... to converge on the same end-resultant. . . . . . . and............. all with VERY close/similar time-continuum space. "

Is Minelab's Multi-IQ part of this?

Sounds like some other manufacturers are about to drop a new detector with new technology...???

Bryan

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
........ we do know.......that higher frequencies can really open doors
> in high-human-occupancy (and subsequent high-volum
> e losses) carpets-of-nails areas. This can be coup
> led (nicely) with true simultaneous multi-freq ope
> rating platforms. (((And there's more than one way
> to skin-a-cat.)))
> Yes........ microprocessors have come a long way.


Tom, I can imagine detecting sites that are typically known to have gold coin drops...... with the new Equinox 800 in prospecting mode ......might be a good clean up mode for that last pass over your iron infested sites to sniff out small gold coins like the U.S. $1 or even $2.50 coin, perhaps on edge or partially masked. (Minelab did say that their prospecting mode is multifreq only, so will be interesting to learn what frequencies they used on the various modes)

I suspect having both 20kHz and 40kHz will be a game changer for a multi-purpose detector with a "gold mode".

Fast and cheap microprocessors coupled with fast and cheap RAM.... along with other fast and cheap off the shelf technology..... really opens the doors for new detecting technologies for those companies willing to take it to the next level by thinking outside the box.

Bryan........ would you believe: NO! :-)

Brian......... I do believe there is a strong possibility the EQIQ "may" open up old/dead sites; yet, , , , , through archaeological site excavation validation......... I know most targets are out of range.......,,,,,,,,, too deep..... in my locale. Especially high-density gold coins.

Keith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes Steve you want fast recovery and open gates fo
> r trash work as long as the recovery doesn't becom
> e too fast as then it would be detrimental to the
> audio intelligence at some point..
>
> But it's also nice to have slower recovery and ope
> n gated audio for depth in more mineralized ground
> ..
>
> An iron buzz enveloped in a hightone in mineral is
> better than a clipped high tone or no tone at all.
> ..
>
> when you use Blending open gate audio and add it
> to other option like Bleedy filters and have abi
> lity to speed up or slow down recovery speeds you
> can do more towards unlocking sites ...
>
> Keith

Keith --

Understood, on how recovery being "too fast" could clip tones/audio to the extent of losing the ability to glean info from the audio.

Also understood on the value of user-alterable recovery speeds. BUT, I don't know what "bleedy filters" mean; in fact, I really don't understand "filters" at all, for the most part. I realize you are referring to how a detector post-processes return signal, but that gets into detector design electronics which I know virtually nothing about (though would REALLY like to...anyone know of a book, something like "basic detector design and theory for dummies?!")

Steve

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mrb1268........................ I have access to a
> fair amount of stuff.......................... and
> there is something that is absolutely fascinating
> (to me) that is happening right before my eyes. I
> have never seen/witnessed this in the detecting co
> mmunity. . . . . and have only witnessed this a fe
> w times .... in other (non-detecting) arenas.....
> in my entire life. Right now......... as I write t
> his...........,,,,,,,,,,,,,............. there are
> several Chief Design Engineers........(from differ
> ent Mfr's)............ that are all converging on
> the same (artificial intelligence) point; albeit..
> .from different/tangential angles-of-approach; yet
> , once again....... to converge on the same end-re
> sultant. . . . . . . and............. all with VER
> Y close/similar time-continuum space. I truly bel
> ieve....with the advent of multi-social-media venu
> es...... has largely contributed to the occurrence
> . Because I am (somewhat) on the sidelines........
> I'm seeing/viewing/witnessing this... as a race.
> I am also highly promoting it..... as it is major
> human advancement. From one human-to-another.....
> . our brainwaves operate on nearly identical frequ
> encies........ even with all of our (so-called) di
> fferences. It is a Brainwave Fibonacci Synchronici
> ty. Stunning............ to say the least.
>
> steveg......... No..... I was not specifically ref
> erring to the Equinox. Also........ we do know..
> .....that higher frequencies can really open doors
> in high-human-occupancy (and subsequent high-volum
> e losses) carpets-of-nails areas. This can be coup
> led (nicely) with true simultaneous multi-freq ope
> rating platforms. (((And there's more than one way
> to skin-a-cat.)))
> Yes........ microprocessors have come a long way.

NASA-Tom --

HIGHLY intriguing and fascinating, as usual (going back to your first post about this "new iron see-through" technology). Shrouded and cryptic, though I know it "has to be" at this point. Just enough to "whet the appetite!"

Meanwhile, it is also fascinating that several different minds are working separately but -- yet -- all at once, converging to a similar point (though from different angles/with different methodologies). When you say social media has contributed, do I take that to mean that things certain people post on forums and other media, like -- say -- Keith, and how he pushes things to the limits in terms of trying to unmask -- have been heard and subsequently "attacked" by these "bright Chief Design Engineers?"

I presume these projects will be coming to fruition WELL after the release of the Equinox? And -- it sounds like -- they may be at least, if not more, "game changing" than what Minelab is claiming that the Equinox will be?


Re-reading some of the things you wrote... "higher frequencies can really open doors in high-human-occupancy (and subsequent high-volume losses) carpets-of-nails areas. This can be coupled (nicely) with true simultaneous multi-freq operating platforms" ... that sounds like the Equinox (in my mind), BUT, it ALSO sounds A LOT like what you said earlier (in my mind)... "through multiple channels,,,, multiple frequencies........ certain non-incremental bits (out of 32 or 64 bits)........ of "seeing" the iron...... then finding the best way/channel/frequency/bit....to 'see' the iron the least.............. whereby/hereby/then .... allowing/authorizing the easiest way of NOT seeing the iron; rather...... enhancing/seeing THROUGH the iron." Those two things seem to describe something similar, but -- apparently -- dissimilar also.

I guess that's why your "more than one way to skin a cat" comment is apropos.

So intriguing!

Steve

With their most recent posts...... doc holiday & lytle78 ....... there's merit.

steveg .......... This is difficult to state.......... due to my 'facts-only.... demanding' scientific mind/mindset. Soooooooo........... speculation... at-best (of which I despise) , , , on my part:
Social media.
Looking back at my posts/requests/implications on other forum(s).... from 14 & 15 years ago......... and especially on this forum in it's 11-years of existence................ requests evoked fruition. Although my 'word' is taken heavily....... it is taken with a grain-of-salt. However; due to social media venue(s)....... with many folks stating their thoughts/requests........ collectively converging on same request/common-denominator.......... the 'strength' and 'validity' (along with directing/redirecting the mindset)..........,,,,,,,,,,......... has ultimately 'steering-committee' today's end-resultant products. It is positively, the pinnacle example of collective brainstorming teamwork. Engineers simply require scientifically proven validating facts...... and will act accordingly thereupon. Without fail; it's the philosophy of:

IF YOU CAN DEFINE IT, WE CAN DESIGN IT.

NASA-Tom,

Very interesting -- in that it sort of "validates" the whole point of this forum.

Thanks for making it available. As I said in another post recently, in another thread, sometimes there's some "junk" to wade through, but overall there is more "meat" here, so to speak, more "substance," from passionate, talented folks, than any other detecting forum out there, IMO. And apparently, sometimes things "trickle up" to people who are capable of bringing some of these ideas at least somewhat to fruition...

Exciting times!

Steve

I detect in west coast of Florida. Should I get model 800 or is model 600 adequate for this territory?